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[televator]

Unless you're gaming at 480p at native res on a widescreen CRT, you're always dealing with compromises when it comes to Wii's IQ. The way Wii games appear on the Gamepad is more than adequate if you can deal with the small size.

Not exactly. HDTVs use standard film upscaling methods. An external scaler that can interger scale using a nearest neighbor scaling method should yield far better results.

The gamepad is a crap screen being fed a compresed, lossy signal. Again though, I digress because I agree that for the specific function of portable automibile entertainment, a game pad is adequate.

 

[televator]

I've read quite a few contradicting reports on that matter. And as far as i understand there's no differnece between Wii 480p vs vWii 480p other than: *snip*

There is a difference. Run the 240pTS checker pattern on both consoles... one will fail.

 

[NormalFish]

Pause your game and look at the uneven thickneses of the lines of the battery indicators. The WiiU is scaling according to some funhouse mirror algorithm.

I have absolutely no clue what the Wii U is doing to anything. Never even touched one.

 

[televator]

I have absolutely no clue what the Wii U is doing to anything. Never even touched one.

My bad, I mistakenly saw "WiiU" in your post. Nintendo naming conventions strike again!

 

[Peltz]

Not exactly. HDTVs use standard film upscaling methods. An external scaler that can interger scale using a nearest neighbor scaling method should yield far better results.

The gamepad is a crap screen being fed a compresed, lossy signal. Again though, I digress because I agree that for the specific function of portable automibile entertainment, a game pad is adequate.

I wasn't talking about an HDTV. I was talking about a native 480p set.

 

[televator]

I wasn't talking about an HDTV. I was talking about a native 480p set.

You did say there will always be compromises outside of 480p widescreen CRTs... enough to comsider the gamepad as "adequate." Did I misunderstand you?

 

[PumpkinSpice]

I wasn't talking about an HDTV. I was talking about a native 480p set.

I think I'd prefer a 1080p HDTV to a native 480p LCD due to the non-square pixels present in most Wii games. Those scale fairly nicely IMO out to 1920 pixels wide, but would look messed up on a 480p LCD.

Ever try playing NES Virtual Console on a 3DS? It's a similar experience. Sure that's a 240p screen but each line looks super fugly due to trying to scale 256 pixels out to 320.

Not exactly. HDTVs use standard film upscaling methods. An external scaler that can interger scale using a nearest neighbor scaling method should yield far better results.

Have you tried nearest neighbor scaling 480p with a Framemeister? It's not pretty.

 

[televator]

Have you tried nearest neighbor scaling 480p with a Framemeister? It's not pretty.

Is that really the scaling process' fault though? I haven't delved too much into 480p framemeister recently, but I wonder why 480i looks great which I have tried in detail, but people still say 480p looks wrong somehow...

 

[IrishNinja]

...say what? i do GC via component @ 480p on the mini, looks lovely

 

[PumpkinSpice]

...say what? i do GC via component @ 480p on the mini, looks lovely

It looks good with smooth scaling but not nearest neighbor. Comes across very unnatural.

 

[televator]

...say what? i do GC via component @ 480p on the mini, looks lovely

I should really get around to trying it myself in detail. I used to take everyone's word about this, but lately I'm not so sure, and even if 480p just can't look good on the FM, I question wheter that's really an issue with the scaling method and not something else like maybe a chroma bug that treats 480p color decoding like 480i... which leads to some terrible results.

 

[NormalFish]

It looks good with smooth scaling but not nearest neighbor. Comes across very unnatural.

I don't mind nearest neighbour. Only issue is the terrible ringing (not sure if that's the right term, can never keep this shit straight) screwing it over.

Text and non-pixel 2D art always looks bad, though.

I should really get around to trying it myself in detail. I used to take everyone's word about this, but lately I'm not so sure, and even if 480p just can't look good on the FM, I question wheter that's really an issue with the scaling method and not something else like maybe a chroma bug that treats 480p color decoding like 480i... which leads to some terrible results.

My understanding is it's a flaw outside of the scaling engine. I don't understand it well enough, though.

 

[Khaz]

Very cool video about CRTs, their lines number and the relation with their frequency. A bit of maths involved but not so much. The presentation is very clever too, with a real CRT as a display instead of video overlays, it's pretty neat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GJUM6pCpew

And the making of
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYZJ3csb_rg

[edit] uninformed rant removed

 

[televator]

I don't mind nearest neighbour. Only issue is the terrible ringing (not sure if that's the right term, can never keep this shit straight) screwing it over.

Text and non-pixel 2D art always looks bad, though.

My understanding is it's a flaw outside of the scaling engine. I don't understand it well enough, though.

That's my hunch. Where have you read this being a possibility? Shmups forum?

 

[Yawnny]

So with an XRGB-Mini Framemeister should I be running the HDMI out to an AV receiver, which then goes to my TV?

I suppose I'm overthinking this and thought the AV Receiver processing the signal, in addition to the XRGB-Mini, would downgrade things?

Although TV's have built in upscalers as well, so I'm not sure my thinking is spot on there. I'm just confused :S

Do people run the XRGB in to their receivers, or directly in to their TV's?

Thanks!

 

[IrishNinja]

It looks good with smooth scaling but not nearest neighbor. Comes across very unnatural.

nearest what now

 

[televator]

nearest what now

Smart 2x. I've been messing with it for the last week. Tweaking and calibrating obsessively. So far, I really do like how clear edges look.

 

[dhonk]

Need some help, I'm outputting from a Windows 98 Machine. DVI to HDMI. Then into an Elgato HD 60 Pro. Unfortunately I'm getting some really nasty noise as you can see. This doesnt happen when I plug the HDMI from the PC directly into the Elgato. (I guess I can do this but I like the scaling features of the Mini.)

Tried diff HDMI cables. Not sure what else to do. This setup here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7zIEiJzxsE is pretty similar to mine. And noise persists after changing input devices? Super weird. Almost makes it seem like a power line issue or something. BLAGH.

VIDEO FOOTAGE: https://youtu.be/6zFkMmAQVcg

EDIT: I fixed it by resetting XRGB Mini it seems. Weird!

 

[missile]

Very cool video about CRTs, their lines number and the relation with their frequency. A bit of maths involved but not so much. The presentation is very clever too, with a real CRT as a display instead of video overlays, it's pretty neat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GJUM6pCpew

And the making of
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYZJ3csb_rg

There's only one thing I disagree with, because I have to: the "the framerate was chosen so that the TV is in sync with the current its powered with", which I believe is a myth. ...

Well, it's not. The first TVs where indeed synced by the mains. This sort of
syncronization was known as "direct sync" and was quickly abandoned due all the
instability issues it suffered from, yet was pretty cheap to realize. However,
the problem was twofold. Getting rid of the mains was fine, but is only half
the story, because a pretty huge problem for TVs in the earlier days was signal
strength vs. picture quality. With a weak video signal you will get noise etc.,
but the main issue was that the TVs got out-of-sync before the picture quality
turned unacceptable! Hence, huge emphasis was put on building some very
sophisticated sync circuits to keep the image stable even for very weak video
signals. For, the TVs now produced their own sync signals which got syncronized
(due to the syncing circuit) with the sync pulses from the video signal. Now
even with some of the sync pulses missing, the pictures remains stable for a
couple of lines. This has lead to these smooth wavy patterns seen when
receiving a weak video signal, but with the picture's content still perceptible
(up to a given point, when the pulses are missing for too long). Without such
circuits, the image would desync immediately, which was a pain for people
living in the mountains. The knowledge put into these sync circuits is
tremendous esp. considering those build out of vacuum tube.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

So with an XRGB-Mini Framemeister should I be running the HDMI out to an AV receiver, which then goes to my TV?

I suppose I'm overthinking this and thought the AV Receiver processing the signal, in addition to the XRGB-Mini, would downgrade things?

Although TV's have built in upscalers as well, so I'm not sure my thinking is spot on there. I'm just confused :S

Do people run the XRGB in to their receivers, or directly in to their TV's?

Thanks!

I run my Framemeister into my receiver, which then sends it to the TV. Mine doesn't do any processing of the image and just sends it along. This also just works out easier for me. It allows me to run everything into my receiver (if it doesn't have an HDMI connection it goes into the framemeister) and then one HDMI out that hits a splitter that sends one hdmi to the tv and one to a capture device.

 

[Khaz]

Well, it's not. The first TVs where indeed synced by the mains. This sort of
syncronization was known as "direct sync" and was quickly abandoned due all the
instability issues it suffered from, yet was pretty cheap to realize. However,
the problem was twofold. Getting rid of the mains was fine, but is only half
the story, because a pretty huge problem for TVs in the earlier days was signal
strength vs. picture quality. With a weak video signal you will get noise etc.,
but the main issue was that the TVs got out-of-sync before the picture quality
turned unacceptable! Hence, huge emphasis was put on building some very
sophisticated sync circuits to keep the image stable even for very weak video
signals. For, the TVs now produced their own sync signals which got syncronized
(due to the syncing circuit) with the sync pulses from the video signal. Now
even with some of the sync pulses missing, the pictures remains stable for a
couple of lines. This has lead to these smooth wavy patterns seen when
receiving a weak video signal, but with the picture's content still perceptible
(up to a given point, when the pulses are missing for too long). Without such
circuits, the image would desync immediately, which was a pain for people
living in the mountains. The knowledge put into these sync circuits is
tremendous esp. considering those build out of vacuum tube.

Well the more you know! Thanks!

 

[purdobol]

There is a difference. Run the 240pTS checker pattern on both consoles... one will fail.

Don't have Wii so can't compare the two. But did the test on SD CRT and both horizontal stripes and checkerboard passed.
Connection: lousy composite video (waiting for the RGB cable to arrive)
Wii U settings: 480i 4:3
240pTS settings: 480i

Will do more testing on different setups in the future. Like 4:3 SD CRT, 16:9 SD CRT, 4:3 PC CRT over A\V cables. And maybe some HDMI stuff.

 

[televator]

Don't have Wii so can't compare the two. But did the test on SD CRT and both horizontal stripes and checkerboard passed.
Connection: lousy composite video (waiting for the RGB cable to arrive)
Wii U settings: 480i 4:3
240pTS settings: 480i

Will do more testing on different setups in the future. Like 4:3 SD CRT, 16:9 SD CRT, 4:3 PC CRT over A\V cables. And maybe some HDMI stuff.

Several people have done this testing in the previous thread in 480p and up using component and HDMI on different fixed pixel displays. Actually displays shouldn't make a difference because it's the WiiU itself ruining the scaling process. Composite never occurred to us, I think, but the conversation is about 480p so I don't think your results will vary once you switch to HDMI or component and use the 480p assets in the test suite options.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Am I alone in just not understanding wanting to run Wii stuff on Wii U?

I mean I really like the eshop Wii "Virtual Console" releases, but outside that... why? You'd maybe at best get a slightly cleaner image (which it turns out is maybe not even the case), at the expense of GameCube controller ports (used by a surprisingly large amount of games), having to use a less convenient interface to launch stuff, no native 240p output, and probably a few other things I'm not thinking of.

And if you don't have a Wii, I'm sure you could get one for almost nothing if you tried. They're like $40 on ebay and would be the most likely gaming thing you'd find at yard sales for $10 these days.

 

[purdobol]

Am I alone in just not understanding wanting to run Wii stuff on Wii U?

Convienience. 3 generations on one machine (GC,Wii, Wii U). Analog + Digital ouput. I mean if it turns out that Wii U indeed cannot handle 480p well, then I'll buy used Wii and just wait for full iosu (in hope that internal scaling can be bypassed).

Same reason I'm emulating nes,snes, mega drive and ps1 on PC while the hardware sits in a box in the basement. Sure I could mod those and have perfect experience but don't have space for dedicated gaming room, or a patience to deal with all those different wired pads. The only thing I really miss is no light gun support :/

It's a tradeoff I'm willing to make. But I understand it is not for everybody.

 

[Timu]

Am I alone in just not understanding wanting to run Wii stuff on Wii U?

I mean I really like the eshop Wii "Virtual Console" releases, but outside that... why? You'd maybe at best get a slightly cleaner image (which it turns out is maybe not even the case), at the expense of GameCube controller ports (used by a surprisingly large amount of games), having to use a less convenient interface to launch stuff, no native 240p output, and probably a few other things I'm not thinking of.

And if you don't have a Wii, I'm sure you could get one for almost nothing if you tried. They're like $40 on ebay and would be the most likely gaming thing you'd find at yard sales for $10 these days.

You can easily use GameCube controller ports on Wii U if you buy an adapter for it, it's how I play Gamecube and Wii games with a Gamecube controller.

No 240p is the biggest issue as Wii VC games are 480i no matter what other resolution you output the Wii U at and looks bad in motion. It's why I'll be using my Wii for Virtual Console games, to get that 240p through component cables.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

You can easily use GameCube controller ports on Wii U if you buy an adapter for it, it's how I play Gamecube and Wii games with a Gamecube controller.

Is there a homebrew thing I'm not aware of to play Wii games listed here with GC controller support? I get that most of these have classic controller support but it's really nice having the option to play with the GC controller in RE4 for example.

 

[davidwhangchoi]

yeah, i need 240p. it'll be such a waste playing on a BVM in 480i if had have a choice to go 240p.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I know you can force 240p on Gamecube through Swiss. Is the same true for Wii?

 

[Vespa]

You can easily use GameCube controller ports on Wii U if you buy an adapter for it, it's how I play Gamecube and Wii games with a Gamecube controller.

No 240p is the biggest issue as Wii VC games are 480i no matter what other resolution you output the Wii U at and looks bad in motion. It's why I'll be using my Wii for Virtual Console games, to get that 240p through component cables.

I understand the convenience of having it all on one machine but the scaling issues and the controller lag of vWii means I prefer using the Wii over the WiiU.

A rough test I did a few months ago suggests that the Wii U's Virtual Wii mode (i.e. the Wii backward compatibility mode) has a 1-frame buffer, and thus 1 frame of lag to go with it.

Basically, I tested the input lag on these setups:
- Melee on a Gamecube (control test, 0 lag)
- Melee on a Wii running natively (equal to Gamecube)
- Melee on a Wii running via Nintendont w/ the Wii U Gamecube controller adapter (~3ms lag)
- Melee on a Wii U running via Nintendont w/ the Wii U Gamecube controller adapter (~20ms lag)

Full post.

 

[Timu]

Is there a homebrew thing I'm not aware of to play Wii games listed here with GC controller support? I get that most of these have classic controller support but it's really nice having the option to play with the GC controller in RE4 for example.

Hmm, not sure.

I understand the convenience of having it all on one machine but the scaling issues and the controller lag of vWii means I prefer using the Wii over the WiiU.

Full post.

I never felt any lag and I played a lot of Gamecube games on Wii U. Also 20ms isn't even bad.

 

[dallow_bg]

There's a 14M2U for sale locally in good condition.
What's the going rate for it in a local sale? Max?

Oh man, it looks amazing. You can proper tell it's perfect by how sharp and straight are the pixels along the borders. So jelly.

Also, I'm starting to believe smaller screens like yours (it's a 13" right?) would be much better - for my personal tastes - than bigger monsters.

Yeah, it's 13". It's not nearly as small as I expected.
It does look quite sharp.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

There's a 14M2U for sale locally in good condition.
What's the going rate for it in a local sale? Max?

I'd go as high as $150 depending on the quality. Of course, I'd low-ball them first.

 

[Peltz]

There's a 14M2U for sale locally in good condition.
What's the going rate for it in a local sale? Max?



Yeah, it's 13". It's not nearly as small as I expected.
It does look quite sharp.

I would try to keep it under a hundred bucks for sure. Shoot for $50. It's a really nice little monitor. I have one myself that I use as a tate.

 

[dallow_bg]

I'd go as high as $150 depending on the quality. Of course, I'd low-ball them first.

Heh, it was originally part of a bundle of all his broadcasting equipment.
He didn't want to part it out in case someone bought it all in one fell swoop but seems that didn't happen. He messaged me saying he would do $180 before I ever offered a price.

But I haven't responded yet.

 

[Peltz]

Heh, it was originally part of a bundle of all his broadcasting equipment.
He didn't want to part it out in case someone bought it all in one fell swoop but seems that didn't happen. He messaged me saying he would do $180 before I ever offered a price.

But I haven't responded yet.

Yikes... I'd pass. There are way better monitors out there available for less. I got my 14m2u for $70 and my 20m2u for $130.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I paid $60 for mine back in 2012 or 2013 if I remember correctly.

 

[NormalFish]

Price of these things is going up as supply drops and suppliers realize there's a market.

 

[Lynd7]

Has anyone else successfully minimised uneven geometry on their PVM? It bothers me on 2D games cause the screen ripples in areas across the screen. Its not real noticeable on 3D games, but it makes me not want to play 2D much.

Also, do most of you have to set the horizontal scaling to over 200? I have mine at 205 to crop out the black areas around most games. I set it according to the border on Banjo Kazooie.

 

[Peltz]

Price of these things is going up as supply drops and suppliers realize there's a market.

True, but I still think he could do way better.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

I don't, I say offer 125 and work your way from there.

Unless you're holding out for somebody who has no idea what they have or somebody desperate to get rid of it, that's right about the normal range.

 

[NormalFish]

I don't, I say offer 125 and work your way from there.

Unless you're holding out for somebody who has no idea what they have or somebody desperate to get rid of it, that's right about the normal range.

this is more or less my take from browsing around, as well.

 

[televator]

I understand the convenience of having it all on one machine but the scaling issues and the controller lag of vWii means I prefer using the Wii over the WiiU.

Full post.

I'll be waiting for the GCVideo to be up for Wii. I just don't like the place we're at with PQ from Nintendo. lol

 

[missile]

Well the more you know! Thanks!

To be fair, it's hard to come across such TVs. But if you look at the earlier
b/w TVs you will recognize that some of them desync pretty hard, i.e. the
picture runs away right at the spot if the frequencies won't match (as can
also be seen in many homemade CRT projects). But for those having a proper
syncing circuit, there is a transition zone up until the pictures runs away.
Within that zone the circuit tries to pull the now out-of-sync frequencies
back together again utilizing what is known as a phase-locked loop (PLL), yet
this pull-in has limits. Another interesting aspect of syncing circuits is that
you can (with a bit of knowledge) say something about their implementation by
looking at the wavy pattern produced when the video signal loses the (h-)sync
pulses. There were many different implementation. They basically all rest on
the principle of a fly-wheel implemented by electronic means.

 

[dubc35]

More reason to save those old CRT's! The women melting PCBs over a coal fire, wow.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...ce-waste-old-technology-mountains-in-pictures

 

[purdobol]

Anybody know good easily obtainable (in EU) component to RGB transcoder?

Currently I know about 3 tested that work very well. Garo, Mayflash VGA005 and Extron CVC (100, 200, 300). Any other brand that I'll should keep an eye for?

 

[Vespa]

Anybody know good easily obtainable (in EU) component to RGB transcoder?

Currently I know about 3 tested that work very well. Garo, Mayflash VGA005 and Extron CVC (100, 200, 300). Any other brand that I'll should keep an eye for?

Garo and the Mayflash VGA005 use the same texas instrument transcoder chip afaik and are superb. I've had sync issues with my Mayflash but a friend who has the same device doesn't. The build quality is poor, we both found un-soldered legs and sloppy flux paste on the board so it's a bit of a gamble going for that, I think it's worth the £10 asking price to see if you luck out. I don't believe the Garo is that good value for money but it's rock solid in terms of sync. It's worth noting that the Garo's scanlines are extremely faint and it has some minor issues with Extron RGBs.

You could use the ebay scaler/gonbes gbs board but I find the image quality poor and I think it might have some scaling issues. Fudoh mentions a bunch of exotic transcoders on his main page but they're rare and pricey.

I've not used an Extron CVC so can't comment on the picture but in case you send 15khz through it you'll need a sync stripper so worth bearing in mind if you're after something more plug and play.

 

[mikespit1200]

I just got my framemeister and I'm really digging it. I am however getting a little bit of noise at the top of my screen. Just some flickering blackish pixels. Is this normal? Could it be my cables? It seems to be most pronounced on the famicom but I'm not sure if it's just because of the color pallet. Anything I can do to minimize the noise?

 

[NormalFish]

I just got my framemeister and I'm really digging it. I am however getting a little bit of noise at the top of my screen. Just some flickering blackish pixels. Is this normal? Could it be my cables? It seems to be most pronounced on the famicom but I'm not sure if it's just because of the color pallet. Anything I can do to minimize the noise?

yes, that's normal. try raising your black level by 1, lowering your brightness/gamma a bit. This is one of those things that varies for basically everyone, so even some custom profiles will give you tons of that noise.

If you're seeing noise on certain solid colors (particularly blues/purples/green), that's harder to deal with as it's an issue with the framemeister's hardware. You can reduce it a bit by messing with the A/D level.

 

[King Al B]

After messing around with my 36" Panasonic. Probably can be fixed, but needs a service technician. Anyway...

Edit: my mistake its a Panasonic Tau 27" ... whatever thats suppose to mean, i think its a good one.

Got me a $20 Thrift Store find. 27" Panasonic Tru Flat. Im really happy with it, the cell phone picks dont do it justice.

SNES with S-Video cables