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[Marty Chinn]

I still think this is a possibility. Both the PS4 and 360 natively output or internally upscale to 1080p. That only leaves the PS3 and in that case I think there's a software upscale depending on the game. It's possible that Marty hasn't actually tested any of his modern consoles at 720p output similar to the AVS. If there's a setting on your systems or games to strictly limit output to 720p, I would enable that.

Nah, these monitors were used in game development on the PS3 and 360, so I know for sure we tested at 720p since it was a requirement and it was preferable to 1080i usually. So I know it's not a question if the monitor can take a 720p signal.

 

[Polioliolio]

Unless you had a calibrated display growing up, your memories are almost guaranteed to be incorrect. Back then every channel on cable TV looked different. The only consistency was that there was no consistency.

These CRTs are from that era, obviously, and they haven't changed, so I'm willing to bet my memory is close enough.

 

[Mega]

Nah, these monitors were used in game development on the PS3 and 360, so I know for sure we tested at 720p since it was a requirement and it was preferable to 1080i usually. So I know it's not a question if the monitor can take a 720p signal.

Does the AVS line triple like the OSSC? MLiG said its line tripling mode creates a non-standard 720p signal that some TVs won't like. Maybe something similar is happening with the AVS.

 

[TSM]

These CRTs are from that era, obviously, and they haven't changed, so I'm willing to bet my memory is close enough.

Put an image on a CRT with tuning knobs and turn the tint and color knobs a quarter turn either way. The whole image changes in drastic ways. I don't think you realize just how out of spec TVs were back then. You seem to have this idealistic view that CRTs came out of the box looking a certain way. In reality people set up their TVs and then played with the knobs until they felt it looked "right" or "better" and it was what it was. We aren't even talking the mid 90s when TVs came standard with digital controls. In the 80s we had analogue rotary controls and you just turned them until it looked good to you.

 

[dcx4610]

I'm in my 30s so I remember getting an Atari 2600 and not understanding why the water in Pitfall was green. I then made the revelation I could make the water blue by changing the tint on the TV. The point being, my parents just set the knobs to whatever they thought looked best when watching TV.

Similarly, I'm sure a lot of kids tuned their CRTs to Super Mario Bros. until the sky was blue which made a lot of sense. The truth is the NES never had an official color palette so whatever out there is just speculation and based on how your particular TV handled the signal. The Playchoice 10 palette is interesting because it was official but some games don't like right with it because it's simply not what we are used to seeing.

Another thing to note is using composite video, you get a lot of color bleed. Going back to SMB, if the sky is supposed to be slightly purple/blue, composite is going to interpret it as blue. The color "pops" because of the bleed. It's hard to explain technically but I would look at some Youtube videos of Composite vs. S-Video vs. Component vs. RGB to get a good idea how dramatically colors change and get more refined with each connection.

I'm happy with how the AVS looks and at least to my eyes, feels pretty spot on to how I remember my games looking. I do hope the PC10 palette gets added though just for fun.

 

[Lynd7]

I went 3 ticks in at first but I'm now in the middle and think it looks the best. According to a post on NA, the middle is an integer scale.

Once it's scaled to 1080p it's not anymore though right? I just got mine, 3 ticks looks correct for 4:3, but if the middle setting eliminates scaling errors I'd use that.

 

[dcx4610]

Some great PC-10 color examples here. I think this would solve Polioliolio's issue with SMB looking different.

PC-10 definitely has a lot of color pop to it but I think it looks great.

http://retrorgb.com/nespics.html

 

[dcx4610]

Once it's scaled to 1080p it's not anymore though right? I just got mine, 3 ticks looks correct for 4:3, but if the middle setting eliminates scaling errors I'd use that.

From what I understand, 3 ticks is perfectly square but NES pixels are not supposed to be perfectly square. The scaling is supposedly to be very slightly stretched. At 3 ticks, you get a shimmering effect. In the middle, it's integer and no shimmer.

This video at this time explains it a bit better.

https://youtu.be/lGSidnlOhd4?t=416

He mentions the middle appears too wide to his eyes but it looks good to me and a proper integer. Another thing to keep in mind is LCD TVs display pixels differently than CRTs so for something intended for CRT, there's not really a perfect solution. 3 ticks with shimmer and not "correct" or in the middle and slightly wider but properly scaled.

 

[Lynd7]

From what I understand, 3 ticks is perfectly square but NES pixels are not supposed to be perfectly square. The scaling is supposedly to be very slightly stretched. At 3 ticks, you get a shimmering effect. In the middle, it's integer and no shimmer.

This video at this time explains it a bit better.

https://youtu.be/lGSidnlOhd4?t=416

He mentions the middle appears too wide to his eyes but it looks good to me and a proper integer. Another thing to keep in mind is LCD TVs display pixels differently than CRTs so for something intended for CRT, there's not really a perfect solution. 3 ticks with shimmer and not "correct" or in the middle and slightly wider but properly scaled.

Cool ok. So in the middle as an integer scale works best. Even when the TV is scaling it further up to 1080p?

 

[cacophony555]

From what I understand, 3 ticks is perfectly square but NES pixels are not supposed to be perfectly square. The scaling is supposedly to be very slightly stretched. At 3 ticks, you get a shimmering effect. In the middle, it's integer and no shimmer.

The left most setting is perfectly square (and thus integer), not 3 ticks. 3 ticks is about the correct pixel aspect, but as you say it's not integer which results in scrolling issues in *some* games. One good example is the background trees in the first part of level 1 of Adventure Island. They're pretty distracting on all the non integer output settings. The middle position is integer (4:3) but it looks way too wide. Overall, I prefer 3 ticks.

And yes, nothing is technically integer in the end on 1080p, but the observations above were on a 1080p set.

 

[Lynd7]

Ok what about doing this. Extend the aspect all the way to the right for 16:9, then change to 4:3 on the TV. I just tried this and it brings the 4:3 more into line with what the three ticks does. Would this get around the integer scale problems?

 

[cacophony555]

Ok what about doing this. Extend the aspect all the way to the right for 16:9, then change to 4:3 on the TV. I just tried this and it brings the 4:3 more into line with what the three ticks does. Would this get around the integer scale problems?

Wow, you might be on to something!

I just tried a quick test with my Adventure Island example and the tree flicker went away. Great idea! I'll have to experiment more when I have more time..

 

[Lynd7]

Wow, you might be on to something!

I just tried a quick test with my Adventure Island example and the tree flicker went away. Great idea! I'll have to experiment more when I have more time..

Cool, seems like it works if the tree flicker wasn't there. I only have one game, so can't really tell. Let us know how it goes with a few other games.

 

[Polioliolio]

Ok what about doing this. Extend the aspect all the way to the right for 16:9, then change to 4:3 on the TV. I just tried this and it brings the 4:3 more into line with what the three ticks does. Would this get around the integer scale problems?

Not bad, but it's a bit too wider than the three notches for my taste, but the pixels seem uniform. Definitely a good option for that kind of shimmering though.
For some reason Adventure Island looks bad-ish on my tv. Must be big areas of solid color, the scan lines don't look great on it for some reason. Also my tv leaves a bit if an image trail on that big blue sky when jumping. Ick.

 

[Lynd7]

Not bad, but it's a bit too wider than the three notches for my taste, but the pixels seem uniform. Definitely a good option for that kind of shimmering though.
For some reason Adventure Island looks bad-ish on my tv. Must be big areas of solid color, the scan lines don't look great on it for some reason. Also my tv leaves a bit if an image trail on that big blue sky when jumping. Ick.

I didn't compare to the three ticks, but it's skinnier than the 4:3 option. I think I might use it like this actually.

 

[cacophony555]

Yes, it's a little wide but not nearly as bad as the 4:3 mode on the AVS.

Here's a very quick/rough comparison:

Ignore the differences in color, angle, sharpness, etc. and just focus on how circular Kirby is

It looks like it's close to the 4 tick option of the AVS pixel aspect

 

[Lynd7]

Yes, it's a little wide but not nearly as bad as the 4:3 mode on the AVS.

Here's a very quick/rough comparison:

Ignore the differences in color, angle, sharpness, etc. and just focus on how circular Kirby is

It looks like it's close to the 4 tick option of the AVS pixel aspect

From that it looks like it's between 3 and 4 ticks. The image looks pretty good like that on my set, definitely appears more like 4:3 should, and we don't have the scrolling issue.

EDIT: Here's some more comparisons, on my set, it looks ever so slightly narrower than the third tick option. So on my set, it looks to be right.

5:3, TV 4:3

4:3

Third Tick (Actually, three presses from base setting, so 4th tick.

 

[Conezays]

Has there been any update from AVS regarding the reported pin issues? I'm still considering getting one of these as the price is quite nice but would prefer to wait for the next batch if they are working on the issue.

 

[StAidan]

Has there been any update from AVS regarding the reported pin issues? I'm still considering getting one of these as the price is quite nice but would prefer to wait for the next batch if they are working on the issue.

Yes, he's working on a solution (both for new manufacturing runs and existing consoles).

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Yes, he's working on a solution (both for new manufacturing runs and existing consoles).

I've seen people in youtube videos seem to struggle to remove their cartridges. Is that something he's looking into as well, or is it by design?

 

[Ashby]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered but I'm lttp here so why is this so much cheaper than the Analogue NT? They seem to have the same functionality and serve the same purpose.

 

[FLEABttn]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered but I'm lttp here so why is this so much cheaper than the Analogue NT? They seem to have the same functionality and serve the same purpose.

Analogue NT uses the CPU and PPU from original NES consoles. Also it's a gigantic chunk of metal.

NT mini uses a more powerful FPGA for 1080p rendering. Also it's a gigantic chuck of metal.

 

[sixteen-bit]

how expensive could a milled aluminum case be?

nonetheless it looks luxurious af, so i guess that's why they charge so much

 

[mosaic]

AVS is too close to NES. My zelda game blanked after I shut it off last night. The NES occasionally does that too unless I hold reset while powering off. Guess I'll do that with the AVS from now on. (Cart battery was replaced last year)

 

[Conezays]

Yes, he's working on a solution (both for new manufacturing runs and existing consoles).

Thanks, do you have a link to that?

 

[cacophony555]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered but I'm lttp here so why is this so much cheaper than the Analogue NT? They seem to have the same functionality and serve the same purpose.

The Nt mini adds a lot of functionality that may or may not be important to you. See earlier in this thread for comparisons.

Some notable things added are: component, composite, rgb, and svideo output, ability to integer scale to full 1080p output with 5x height and 6x width, included wireless controller, solid aluminum shell, in game menu, and more sound output options/control. The part costs are significantly more (eg. the FGPA costs 2.5x as much). It sounds like more significant features are coming too as a result of the FPGA's extra capability.

 

[StAidan]

I've seen people in youtube videos seem to struggle to remove their cartridges. Is that something he's looking into as well, or is it by design?

IIRC, it was by design with the expectation that it will loosen up a bit with use. I haven't seen him post anything about revising that aspect, so I can't attest to it.

Thanks, do you have a link to that?

He posted it on this page:
http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?StartRow=3901&catid=7&threadid=92557

Cart connector - this one is funny/sad. I figured out this problem years ago but at some point it was lost when making the new connector. All the tooling is being remade anyways (needs bigger side guides) so all the contacts will be made longer. The connector is on a plugin board so it will be a cheap/free upgrade part when its done in a few months.

 

[Conezays]

IIRC, it was by design with the expectation that it will loosen up a bit with use. I haven't seen him post anything about revising that aspect, so I can't attest to it.



He posted it on this page:
http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?StartRow=3901&catid=7&threadid=92557

Awesome, thank you.

Am I correct to assume this would be a non-issue using an Everdrive with the offending games?

 

[cacophony555]

Awesome, thank you.

Am I correct to assume this would be a non-issue using an Everdrive with the offending games?

Correct, Everdrive works fine with those games.

 

[Conezays]

Correct, Everdrive works fine with those games.

Great, thanks for the help. I think I may pull the trigger on this but perhaps wait for the next revision if that is indeed happening regarding the pins. The online scoreboard is really enticing for me, even if I place poorly, lol.

 

[BONKERS]

Once it's scaled to 1080p it's not anymore though right? I just got mine, 3 ticks looks correct for 4:3, but if the middle setting eliminates scaling errors I'd use that.

It's not. But it shouldn't be an issue. Even if you had an XRGB Mini at 1080p output, it's not 100% pixel sharp. There's still some softness to the scaling and analog noise present. But because of the scaling it uses (Non point sampled) scaling artifacts dont' ever show up. Theoretically, scaling 720p output that has scaling artifacts to 1080p with non-integer scaling should cause the scaling artifacts to disappear.


720p output is also the better choice here because it gets you full height scaling without losing any lines like 5x at 1080p. Or having a lot of unnecessary empty space at 4x scaling at 1080p. If TV makers had half a brain and allowed an point scaling mode for 4k TVs. 720p and 1080p both get you integer scaling to 4k. But 720p would also still retain full height at 3x 240p rather than 4x@1080p with empty space or 4x@1080p with missing lines.


Trying to get the PAR exactly perfect is impossible as every CRT was different and would display it different. Even if the mathematically correct PAR is supposedly 1.143:1.

Put an image on a CRT with tuning knobs and turn the tint and color knobs a quarter turn either way. The whole image changes in drastic ways. I don't think you realize just how out of spec TVs were back then. You seem to have this idealistic view that CRTs came out of the box looking a certain way. In reality people set up their TVs and then played with the knobs until they felt it looked "right" or "better" and it was what it was. We aren't even talking the mid 90s when TVs came standard with digital controls. In the 80s we had analogue rotary controls and you just turned them until it looked good to you.

This. The first TV I owned had nothing but dials, and the first TV my family had that we played the NES on over RF had nothing but dials as well.
CRTs vary wildly alone without changes. But without calibration that changes even more.

 

[cacophony555]

720p output is also the better choice here because it gets you full height scaling without losing any lines like 5x at 1080p. Or having a lot of unnecessary empty space at 4x scaling at 1080p. If TV makers had half a brain and allowed an point scaling mode for 4k TVs. 720p and 1080p both get you integer scaling to 4k. But 720p would also still retain full height at 3x 240p rather than 4x@1080p with empty space or 4x@1080p with missing lines.


Trying to get the PAR exactly perfect is impossible as every CRT was different and would display it different. Even if the mathematically correct PAR is supposedly 1.143:1.

But those are lines most people want to lose. There's a reason the AVS cuts them off by default.

5x height with 6x width output only cuts off 5% on the top and 5% on the bottom, both of which are in the overscan area of most CRTs. It also achieves a PAR of 1.2, which looks pretty much perfect. The pixels are razor sharp too because they map 1:1 with what gets displayed.

Outputting 720p is more cost effective and it's probably fine for most people. But 5x by 6x output is better if you care about integer scaled with accurate PAR.

 

[TSM]

This. The first TV I owned had nothing but dials, and the first TV my family had that we played the NES on over RF had nothing but dials as well.
CRTs vary wildly alone without changes. But without calibration that changes even more.

Haha, over RF you even had to turn the tuning knob to try and get the best image. TVs back then even had vertical and horizontal control knobs. If you turned them too far the image would start rolling.

 

[Timu]

Haha, over RF you even had to turn the tuning knob to try and get the best image. TVs back then even had vertical and horizontal control knobs. If you turned them too far the image would start rolling.

Yeah, I know I'm old when even I can remember this, lol.

 

[angrywoodchuck]

Still waiting on my shipping confirmation. This is starting to get annoying as I just want to play it already!

 

[CrashPrime]

But those are lines most people want to lose. There's a reason the AVS cuts them off by default.

5x height with 6x width output only cuts off 5% on the top and 5% on the bottom, both of which are in the overscan area of most CRTs. It also achieves a PAR of 1.2, which looks pretty much perfect. The pixels are razor sharp too because they map 1:1 with what gets displayed.

Outputting 720p is more cost effective and it's probably fine for most people. But 5x by 6x output is better if you care about integer scaled with accurate PAR.

1536x1200 image rendered to a 1920x1080 display only causing a loss of 120/5 = 24 actual pixels. 12 pixels on top, 12 on bottom. 5% top/5%bottom or a total of 10% of your vertical picture.

Just so happens that the NES/SNES actually draws to 224 and has an overscan of 16 pixels already so really you lose even less.

I would imagine this is what you are talking about right?

What is the resolution when rendering 256x240 to 720p with a proper stretch of horizontal? Would that be a 4x horizontal, 3x vertical to 1024x720 on 1280x720 space? Hence the full vertical space being used?

4:3 720p being 1.333333 PAR
6:5 1080p being 1.2 PAR

Actual target would be 8:7 or 1.14 PAR from what I can gather. Requiring a 4k set. 2048x1680 on a 4096x2160 display with significant black borders. Only other 4k integer scale that makes sense would be back to 4:3 which is pretty far off from 1.14 relatively speaking. Big advantage on 4k being shaders doing an aperture grill or shadow mask I guess.

Setting up Retroarch for that 1536x1200 image seems to make sense for Nintendo but I think for genesis/mega drive you are going to want to go for 1:1 PAR as it is supposed to be 0.914 and I don't think you get close with integers on a 1080p set going with any other scaling.

For the purpose of the AVS what are the scaling factors done on the horizontal axis on the vertical integer scaled 720p image using that stretch feature?

 

[The Real Abed]

I'd love to have something like this, but for that price I'd rather pay a little more and get something that can do SNES as well.

I do love that it works with the FDS though. Not that I own one.

 

[cacophony555]

1536x1200 image rendered to a 1920x1080 display only causing a loss of 120/5 = 24 actual pixels. 12 pixels on top, 12 on bottom. 5% top/5%bottom or a total of 10% of your vertical picture.

Just so happens that the NES/SNES actually draws to 224 and has an overscan of 16 pixels already so really you lose even less.

I would imagine this is what you are talking about right?

Yes, exactly right.

What is the resolution when rendering 256x240 to 720p with a proper stretch of horizontal? Would that be a 4x horizontal, 3x vertical to 1024x720 on 1280x720 space? Hence the full vertical space being used?

That's what you get if you do the 4:3 stretch, but it looks pretty wide. By default the full vertical space isn't used because some of the top and bottom are clipped.

4:3 720p being 1.333333 PAR
6:5 1080p being 1.2 PAR

Actual target would be 8:7 or 1.14 PAR from what I can gather. Requiring a 4k set. 2048x1680 on a 4096x2160 display with significant black borders. Only other 4k integer scale that makes sense would be back to 4:3 which is pretty far off from 1.14 relatively speaking. Big advantage on 4k being shaders doing an aperture grill or shadow mask I guess.
...
For the purpose of the AVS what are the scaling factors done on the horizontal axis on the vertical integer scaled 720p image using that stretch feature?

Here are the horizontal stretch options on the AVS (bold are integer scales):

1.000, 1.087, 1.167, 1.250, 1.333, 1.417, 1.500, 1.587, 1.667

I've heard that there is some variance with what's considered the correct PAR, but generally anything around the 1.14-1.25 looks good to me.

 

[Lynd7]

AVS 4:3 looks too wide. Tick 3 or 4 looks better but isn't integer scaled so has the shimmering etc. I've stuck with the 5:3 with TV set to 4:3 and liking that.

Has anyone tried the scoreboard upload with the OSX software? Doesn't seem to be working.

 

[Leonsito]

Mine is still in customs, it's a shame retrousb shipping method was USPS, for Spain that's almost a death sentence.

After the price + $69 shipping, I will have to pay almost 100€ in fees and taxes, plus the awful delay, the console has been in customs since the 19th

 

[sixteen-bit]

Trailer showing the NES classic Mini's video options. How does it compare to AVS?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SYfdwtv3eI

 

[elostyle]

Stretching the image to 16:9 and then having the TV squish it actually works better than I expected.

The result is what appears to me as slightly smoother scrolling compared to the AVS's 4:3 setting, although I may be imagining things.

 

[Conezays]

Decided to pull the trigger on ordering an AVS and Everdrive! Excited for my brother and I to have angry multiplayer sessions when he visits, lol.

 

[r3n4ud]

Decided to pull the trigger on ordering an AVS and Everdrive! Excited for my brother and I to have angry multiplayer sessions when he visits, lol.

I ordered my Everdrive weeks ago. Hope you're patient for it to arrive, if you live in Canada or US :/

Must be crossing the Atlantic on a canoe for delivery lol

 

[Marty Chinn]

Decided to pull the trigger on ordering an AVS and Everdrive! Excited for my brother and I to have angry multiplayer sessions when he visits, lol.

Any reason you picked the Everdrive over the Powerpak?

 

[r3n4ud]

Any reason you picked the Everdrive over the Powerpak?

My reason is because I'm an idiot

Kicking myself now for not going with a Powerpak.

 

[Conezays]

I ordered my Everdrive weeks ago. Hope you're patient for it to arrive, if you live in Canada or US :/

Must be crossing the Atlantic on a canoe for delivery lol

Hah, it's not my first Everdrive so I know the wait can be a bit rough for Canada (I still have a Turbo Everdrive en route from the beginning of the month ).

Any reason you picked the Everdrive over the Powerpak?

I own multiple Everdrives and have had zero issues with Krikzz's products or customer service. I'm not aware of any benefits of the Powerpak?

 

[Timu]

Everdrive with this thing would be amazing!!!

 

[Pyrrhus]

Trailer showing the NES classic Mini's video options. How does it compare to AVS?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SYfdwtv3eI

What the hell is up with the music in that trailer? Is this what marketing interns think the '80s sounded like?

 

[Marty Chinn]

I own multiple Everdrives and have had zero issues with Krikzz's products or customer service. I'm not aware of any benefits of the Powerpak?

I'm just curious if there are benefits for the Everdrive. It seems like it gets mentioned a lot more than the Powerpak, so I was just curious why people pick one over the other.