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[NOLA_Gaffer]

USgamer review up: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/retrousb-avs-review-the-all-purpose-modern-nes

Man, this review really makes things difficult.

I currently play my NES and Famicom on a small 13" CRT television, and while I wasn't planning on throwing $600+ on a fancy pro-level PVM or equivalent I was probably going to eventually pick up a larger half-decent consumer level television for my retro gaming. The AVS wouldn't work with said television, but Analogue's new gizmo would.

But I dunno if I want to drop $450 on what amounts to a modern NES.

Man this is hard.

 

[metsallica]

You don't, and it's the cheapest route while offering good picture quality as well. Also why an Analogue when it's even more expensive than an RGB NES that you already have!!!

BECAUSE I AM A CRAZY PERSON WITH A SICKNESS!

duh

(do people still say duh)

 

[dcx4610]

I saw a review complaining that the AVS was only mono, initially got bummed and then I realized so was the NES. I know some emulators can do a simulated stereo so I'm curious if that's something that can be added one day.

 

[El Sabroso]

No shipping to Mexico T_T

Country not even listed

 

[Mega]

I saw a review complaining that the AVS was only mono, initially got bummed and then I realized so was the NES. I know some emulators can do a simulated stereo so I'm curious if that's something that can be added one day.

It would be a nice bonus to have a panning menu, but that's a dumb complaint from the reviewer. You're not missing anything like if it were a Genesis or SNES hardware clone with only mono sound.

 

[Timu]

BECAUSE I AM A CRAZY PERSON WITH A SICKNESS!

duh

(do people still say duh)

Yes, yes you are!!!

 

[dolabla]

Man, this review really makes things difficult.

I currently play my NES and Famicom on a small 13" CRT television, and while I wasn't planning on throwing $600+ on a fancy pro-level PVM or equivalent I was probably going to eventually pick up a larger half-decent consumer level television for my retro gaming. The AVS wouldn't work with said television, but Analogue's new gizmo would.

But I dunno if I want to drop $450 on what amounts to a modern NES.

Man this is hard.

Yeah, I initially was thinking about getting it at a later date to go along with the AVS, but I just can't justify paying that much.

It also doesn't help things when you read about having to deal with Analogue as a company; even some people going as far as warning to stay completely away from them. It would suck to drop $450 on a luxury product like this and if you run into a problem, you have to deal with bad customer service.

It could be a great machine if it does as advertised, but I think I'll pass. I think the AVS will be plenty good enough for me personally; especially going off the reviews so far.

 

[sixteen-bit]

USgamer review up: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/retrousb-avs-review-the-all-purpose-modern-nes

Salamander is such a gorgeous cart but it's nice to know I'm not the only one with grime issues under the label.

 

[-KRS-]

I saw a review complaining that the AVS was only mono, initially got bummed and then I realized so was the NES. I know some emulators can do a simulated stereo so I'm curious if that's something that can be added one day.

Personally I hate those fake stereo ost videos on YouTube so if it would be anything like that, no thanks.

I guess having the option wouldn't hurt though.

 

[dolabla]

AVS lag and image quality comparison on different tv sets (4k upscaling included): http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=166023

 

[Polioliolio]

I have a question about the AVS

Will famicom games that support up to 4 players (via attachment port) simply work using the 4 controller ports on the AVS, or will I still have to plug in the additional controllers thingy via the famicom attachment port, and use two famicom controllers like the Hudson bee expansion port controllers?

 

[Timu]

AVS lag and image quality comparison on different tv sets (4k upscaling included): http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=166023

Dat input lag!!!=O

 

[dcx4610]

bunnyboy replied stating that the AVS does indeed look the best on a 4k TV.

It's really going to come down to what kind of TV you have and the scaler used. Some TVs do have a "blurry" scaler when upscaling content to 1080p or 2160p but from the TVs I've experienced, (especially 4k models), they increase the sharpness rather than introduce blur which makes pixel graphics look great.

Here's a shot of SMB on a 4k set...

 

[Timu]

bunnyboy replied stating that the AVS does indeed look the best on a 4k TV.

It's really going to come down to what kind of TV you have and the scaler used. Some TVs do have a "blurry" scaler when upscaling content to 1080p or 2160p but from the TVs I've experienced, (especially 4k models), they increase the sharpness rather than introduce blur which makes pixel graphics look great.

Here's a shot of SMB on a 4k set...

Oh wow!!!

 

[Mega]

Edges are soft and corners are rounded in that picture. Not the AVS' fault obviously, but it'll be nice to get 4K upscalers down the line for the best, pixel perfect image quality.

 

[Beer Monkey]

they increase the sharpness rather than introduce blur which makes pixel graphics look great.

Increasing sharpness is actually bad. It creates artifacts; see 'ringing' and 'edge enhancement'.

That pic you posted looks pretty good for the most part, as best as I can tell, though.

Edges are soft and corners are rounded in that picture. Not the AVS' fault obviously, but it'll be nice to get 4K upscalers down the line for the best, pixel perfect image quality.

I wish Pioneer still made TVs. They kept adding more features each generation. For example, the last Kuro sets had a game mode that didn't do hardly anything for reducing lag in high-def gaming as many would expect, but what it did do is engage proper 240p recognition and scaling. I wouldn't be surprised if a hypothetical Pioneer Elite 4K TV offered an integer scaling mode option for non-native resolutions.

It would be great if consumer sets offered a little more tweakability. They have the horsepower to do it, easily.

 

[mikezilla2]

lol guessing they dont have anything like this for PS consoles ?

 

[EightBitNate]

Hey this may be kind of a weird question, but can anyone explain how this is legal? Lots of these seem to be popping up and Nintendo never does anything about them.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Hey this may be kind of a weird question, but can anyone explain how this is legal? Lots of these seem to be popping up and Nintendo never does anything about them.

What patent do you think it would violate?

 

[NoFaceNico]

lol guessing they dont have anything like this for PS consoles ?

You can play PS1 discs on every model of PS3. So if you want HD PS1 games there's already a way. I hear there is some lag, but the only game I've played where the lag seems to affect the enjoyment of the game was CTR Racing. Otherwise the lag is almost undetectable on most games. There's even a USB adapter so you can use/transfer memory card data.

Hey this may be kind of a weird question, but can anyone explain how this is legal? Lots of these seem to be popping up and Nintendo never does anything about them.

From what I understand, patents on the NES ran out a long time ago.

 

[Rich!]

Hey this may be kind of a weird question, but can anyone explain how this is legal? Lots of these seem to be popping up and Nintendo never does anything about them.

NES chipset patents have expired. There is nothing Nintendo can do - physical hardware is only protected for so long.

 

[Timu]

You can play PS1 discs on every model of PS3. So if you want HD PS1 games there's already a way. I hear there is some lag, but the only game I've played where the lag seems to affect the enjoyment of the game was CTR Racing. Otherwise the lag is almost undetectable on most games. There's even a USB adapter so you can use/transfer memory card data.

The lag is terrible for me, at least through HDMI, and I'm someone who is very sensitive to that!!!

 

[EightBitNate]

You can play PS1 discs on every model of PS3. So if you want HD PS1 games there's already a way. I hear there is some lag, but the only game I've played where the lag seems to affect the enjoyment of the game was CTR Racing. Otherwise the lag is almost undetectable on most games. There's even a USB adapter so you can use/transfer memory card data.



From what I understand, patents on the NES ran out a long time ago.

NES chipset patents have expired. There is nothing Nintendo can do - physical hardware is only protected for so long.

Ah, ok. Thanks.

 

[dolabla]

bunnyboy replied stating that the AVS does indeed look the best on a 4k TV.

It's really going to come down to what kind of TV you have and the scaler used. Some TVs do have a "blurry" scaler when upscaling content to 1080p or 2160p but from the TVs I've experienced, (especially 4k models), they increase the sharpness rather than introduce blur which makes pixel graphics look great.

Here's a shot of SMB on a 4k set...

I'd imagine Sony and other Samsung 4k tv's will do a good job upscaling. I know when I had my Sony 4k, it upscaled 720p content well.

Here's a just posted today interview from RetroRGB with Brian: https://youtu.be/Yd0o0l4hogA?t=22m6s

 

[EnergizerFellow]

I'd imagine Sony and other Samsung 4k tv's will do a good job upscaling. I know when I had my Sony 4k, it upscaled 720p content well.

It gets way better than that...

The Ultra HD standard resolution, aka "4K", aka 2160p, aka 3840x2160 is a perfect integer scale of 1080i/p, 720p, and 240p at 2:1, 3:1, and 9:1, respectively. This gives razor sharp image scaling with a simple line doubler and relatively easy to implement in hardware.

If you want to know why the AVS is 720p only, that's why (among other reasons).

Those UHD 4K TVs also have the advantage of Rec. 2020 and DCI-P3 color gamut, which can reproduce the entirety of legacy NTSC color (aka Rec. 601) - the latter of which is actually a lot closer to the Adobe RGB you see on "wide gamut" professional PC monitors. The classic sRGB and Rec. 709 you see on 1080p HDTV and traditional PC monitors is only covers 72% of the NTSC gamut. If you're wondering why the colors always seemed a bit off on modern displays, that's a large part of why.

Bottom line: Get that 4K UHD.

Some random reading links:
http://www.eizo.com/library/basics/lcd_monitor_color_gamut/
http://www.eizoglobal.com/library/basics/lcd_monitor_color_gamut/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._601
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._2020

 

[mollipen]

The lag is terrible for me, at least through HDMI, and I'm someone who is very sensitive to that!!!

Yeah, the PS3 introduces lag to PS1/PS2 games that really throw off some stuff, even when running through component. As one example, I did testing once in Bust a Groove, and using the same HDTV and same component cables, the game was playable through a PS2 where it wasn't on the PS3.

Some games the lag doesn't effect much, but any games that rely on timing can really get thrown off. It's a huge shame, because otherwise the PS3 would be the great "history of PlayStation" console it should be.

 

[Beer Monkey]

If you want to know why the AVS is 720p only, that's why (among other reasons).

Come on, the primary reason is cost, and that's not anything to be ashamed of. Stop all this silly spin.

 

[EnergizerFellow]

Come on, the primary reason is cost, and that's not anything to be ashamed of. Stop all this silly spin.

Oh it's most definitely cost (Brian from RetroUSB even openly states as such), but at the same time 720p is arguably the best solution available from an engineering thought exercise perspective even if cost wasn't a concern (ASICs that can do 4K aren't readily available yet in hobbyist low volume).

 

[Beer Monkey]

but at the same time 720p is arguably the best solution available from an engineering thought exercise perspective

Please stop. 4K TVs are a very small percentage of the current market share so for most buyers 720p is not the best solution, it's the most affordable one.

Those UHD 4K TVs also have the advantage of Rec. 2020 and DCI-P3 color gamut, which can reproduce the entirety of legacy NTSC color (aka Rec. 601) - the latter of which is actually a lot closer to the Adobe RGB you see on "wide gamut" professional PC monitors. The classic sRGB and Rec. 709 you see on 1080p HDTV and traditional PC monitors is only covers 72% of the NTSC gamut. If you're wondering why the colors always seemed a bit off on modern displays, that's a large part of why.

EDIT: If you think the the extremely limited 54 color palette of the NES approaches "the entirety of legacy NTSC color", you're high.

 

[EnergizerFellow]

Please stop. 4K TVs are a very small percentage of the current market share so for most buyers 720p is not the best solution, it's the most affordable one.

Ben TV shopping lately? 1080p is very rapidly disappearing in favor of 2160p. 1080p is going the way of the dinosaur waaaay faster than it took for 720p/768p to go away. All but the very cheapest of the new-for-2016 models, e.g. Vizio 1080p D/E-series, are already 2160p from all manufacturers that matter. Not like they really have a choice either as there's only a small handful of companies that actually make the panel glass itself (AUO, LG Display, et al.).

Not like you can just pump 240p down HDMI either as it's way out-of-spec and likely wouldn't work on the vast majority of hardware. Even 480i is technically out of scope for the HDMI spec, despite a lot of hardware working with it. Added bonus of 720p being an integer scale into all of those 1440 line PC displays as well.

EDIT: If you think the the extremely limited 54 color palette of the NES approaches "the entirety of legacy NTSC color", you're high.

True, but it will make for a much more accurate representation of what colors it is trying to display. Ever work with 3D LUT tables?

 

[Marty Chinn]

Ben TV shopping lately?

No, and that's the problem. Yes, 4K is rapid replacing 1080p sets in stores making it the only choice to pick from, but a vast majority aren't throwing away their existing TVs to buy one. Most people who are going to buy a 4K TV only do so because their existing TV died and needs to be replaced and they'll pick up 4K as that's the only choice they have.

 

[EnergizerFellow]

No, and that's the problem. Yes, 4K is rapid replacing 1080p sets in stores making it the only choice to pick from, but a vast majority aren't throwing away their existing TVs to buy one. Most people who are going to buy a 4K TV only do so because their existing TV died and needs to be replaced and they'll pick up 4K as that's the only choice they have.

Thing being, 240p, 480i, and 720p all fail to integer scale into 1080p (nor PAL's 288p/576i for that matter), so it's not like you're going to get a clean integer scale into any 1080p TV from the NES's 240p native source. All 1080p TVs are fixed-pixel panels so something, somewhere, has to non-integer scale up to the panel's native resolution and 240p is very much not supported by HDMI.

For people with CRTs, a SCART socket on the back of the AVS would have been nice as it has all the pins, cables, and adapters for anything anybody could realistically want.

As a side note on new TVs, it's looking like you can't do much analog going forward as Samsung's 2016 KS-series TVs lack any analog input of any kind. This isn't going to be the first...

 

[Marty Chinn]

Thing being, 240p, 480i, and 720p all fail to integer scale into 1080p (nor PAL's 288p/576i for that matter), so it's not like you're going to get a clean integer scale into any 1080p TV from the NES's 240p native source. All 1080p TVs are fixed-pixel panels so something, somewhere, has to non-integer scale up to the panel's native resolution and 240p is very much not supported by HDMI.

Yes, but the point is it's not because they were doing it for 4K TVs; it's they did it for cost reasons. They even said so.

 

[Mega]

Oh it's most definitely cost (Brian from RetroUSB even openly states as such), but at the same time 720p is arguably the best solution available from an engineering thought exercise perspective even if cost wasn't a concern (ASICs that can do 4K aren't readily available yet in hobbyist low volume).

How do you reach that conclusion? It's not.

Thing being, 240p, 480i, and 720p all fail to integer scale into 1080p (nor PAL's 288p/576i for that matter), so it's not like you're going to get a clean integer scale into any 1080p TV from the NES's 240p native source. All 1080p TVs are fixed-pixel panels so something, somewhere, has to non-integer scale up to the panel's native resolution and 240p is very much not supported by HDMI.

No one is proposing a 4.5x non-integer scale of 240p on a 1080p display. The suggestion is that there should have been a similar implementation to the Hi-Def NES (4x integer scale in a 1080p frame) and Analogue NT Mini (updated Hi-Def with 4x and 5x integer scale). This is more flexible and should result in a somewhat cleaner image than AVS on a 1080p set.... which is what most of us currently have. As it stands, the average AVS owner will be playing on a 1080p TV and it will look inferior compared to the Hi-Def options... both because of the uneven scaling and the filtering. Not enough to throw a fit over, but it's worth making that known.

If you wanna see the likely difference for yourself at 1080p, download a GBA game for Wii U and toggle Pixel Perfect mode on and off.

At 4K, neither 720p or 1080p should have an advantage as both will have to contend with the TV's internal scaler. My testing in Photoshop showed that both become a bit soft if the TV uses bilinear filtering.

 

[NoFaceNico]

Have any GAFers recieved their AVS yet? So far I've only seen big youtubers get theirs.

 

[Talladega Knight]

Have any GAFers recieved their AVS yet? So far I've only seen big youtubers get theirs.

I think it ships late September. I haven't gotten any sort of confirmation yet.

 

[JaseMath]

bunnyboy replied stating that the AVS does indeed look the best on a 4k TV.

It's really going to come down to what kind of TV you have and the scaler used. Some TVs do have a "blurry" scaler when upscaling content to 1080p or 2160p but from the TVs I've experienced, (especially 4k models), they increase the sharpness rather than introduce blur which makes pixel graphics look great.

Here's a shot of SMB on a 4k set...

Oh my god

 

[cacophony555]

No one is proposing a 4.5x non-integer scale of 240p on a 1080p display. The suggestion is that there should have been a similar implementation to the Hi-Def NES (4x integer scale in a 1080p frame) and Analogue NT Mini (updated Hi-Def with 4x and 5x integer scale). This is more flexible and should result in a somewhat cleaner image than AVS on a 1080p set.... which is what most of us currently have..

Even more important than that is the fact that you can get a correct integer scaled aspect ratio. With 720p you're forced to have the image either look way too wide or way too skinny. Look at how Metroid looks in the My Life in Gaming video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI60A3DpI6w&feature=youtu.be&t=6m24s

With the 1080p 4x and 5x you can achieve either 1.25 or 1.2 PAR respectively, which should perfectly match the pixel ratio of a NES on a CRT. And doubled up to 4k gives exactly the same result.

So bottom line is 1080p output allows an accurate looking integer scaled image and 720p does not.

 

[Mega]

I encountered that same problem when using the 720p mode in the Hi-Def mod. You can dial in a 5:4 approximation somewhere in between 3:3 and 4:3 but it's non-integer width so that stuff on the screen is uneven every X number of pixels. This would be fine since it's not very noticeable, except it causes the wavy, shimmery effect.

 

[Freshmaker]

Hey this may be kind of a weird question, but can anyone explain how this is legal? Lots of these seem to be popping up and Nintendo never does anything about them.

It's not using Nintendo's hardware so Nintendo can't really do much about it.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

Okay, okay... So if I have a 4K TV; this is the better purchase over the Analogue NT?

 

[Polioliolio]

Seems a bit silly to be willing to drop 500 bucks on an NES and yet fight tooth and nail over not getting a 4k tv.

I might be biased though, I already preordered an AVS. Ultimately I'd like more features and options, but the price is right.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Seems a bit silly to be willing to drop 500 bucks on an NES and yet fight tooth and nail over not getting a 4k tv.

I see it the other way around. Anybody dropping big cash buying a 4K TV in this immature market (I'm still waiting for per-pixel lit sets with truly low latency) shouldn't bat an eye at a couple hundred bucks more to get the Analogue NT Mini over the AVS.

The Mini will play very nicely with my Kuro and then when 4K sets are good enough I'll buy one.

 

[mikezilla2]

You can play PS1 discs on every model of PS3. So if you want HD PS1 games there's already a way. I hear there is some lag, but the only game I've played where the lag seems to affect the enjoyment of the game was CTR Racing. Otherwise the lag is almost undetectable on most games. There's even a USB adapter so you can use/transfer memory card data.



From what I understand, patents on the NES ran out a long time ago.

i know i just figured you know clone hardware

 

[Mega]

Okay, okay... So if I have a 4K TV; this is the better purchase over the Analogue NT?

If price isn't an issue and assuming the NT Mini has no glaring problems when it launches... no, the AVS is definitely not the better purchase.

 

[Mega]

Seems a bit silly to be willing to drop 500 bucks on an NES and yet fight tooth and nail over not getting a 4k tv.

I might be biased though, I already preordered an AVS. Ultimately I'd like more features and options, but the price is right.

Who's fighting tooth and nail against getting a 4KTV?

They're two completely different product categories at different price points. I myself am waiting for low lag, low persistence, flat, 4K OLED. Buying a new TV should hardly be the first recommendation to alleviate a concern with the AVS. And holding out for better TV options doesn't mean a person is being cheap. It's actually perfectly in line to weighing the pros and cons between the AVS and other alternatives. We're trying to determine what's best for each of us and make an informed purchase going forward.

 

[Polioliolio]

If it's determined that AVS will look great on 4k TVs, I guess my thought is that everyone will, likely at some point, have such a tv. I may even have one myself in the next couple years. It's inevitable, as 1080 is getting phased out.

So I guess the choice is either, buy the more expensive Analog NT Mini to match your 1080 now, with improvements likely only noticeable by an enthusiast eye, and then still make the inevitable 4k purchase in the coming years, or get the cheaper AVS, play in HD now, and then when the inevitable 4k TV purchase is made, the AVS looks even better.


Although I do understand the NT Mini and AVS are in different tiers of luxury. If you can afford it, by all means, go for the NT Mini.

It seems to me, the AVS will be a competent choice regardless of if you have a 1080 tv today or not.

 

[cacophony555]

If it's determined that AVS will look great on 4k TVs

If you don't care about having an accurate amount of horizontal stretch (ie pixel aspect ratio) in combination with perfect integer scale then the AVS should look fine at either 720p or 4k.

 

[EnergizerFellow]

If you don't care about having an accurate amount of horizontal stretch (ie pixel aspect ratio) in combination with perfect integer scale then the AVS should look fine at either 720p or 4k.

The real issue is that the original NES hardware didn't use square pixels when displayed. Native resolution was 256x240 straight off the PPU, but it relied on the analog nature of CRT sweeps to perform the 1.25:1 horizontal stretch to 4:3.

A 3x scale at least gives you 768 horizontal pixels to work with for fitting into 960 (960x720 4:3) via linear interpolation. A 4x scale wold need to scale out to 1280 from 1024, etc.

 

[Mega]

^That's what was said earlier. And 960 x 720 looks too wide.

edit: correction, not too wide but it will be uneven and won't look pretty.