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Richard Dawkins: I will not arrest Pope Benedict XVI (but I like the idea)

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cntr

Banned
Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI
from TimesOnline by Marc Horne
RICHARD DAWKINS, the atheist campaigner, is planning a legal ambush to have the Pope arrested during his state visit to Britain “for crimes against humanity”.

Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, the atheist author, have asked human rights lawyers to produce a case for charging Pope Benedict XVI over his alleged cover-up of sexual abuse in the Catholic church.

The pair believe they can exploit the same legal principle used to arrest Augusto Pinochet, the late Chilean dictator, when he visited Britain in 1998.

The Pope was embroiled in new controversy this weekend over a letter he signed arguing that the “good of the universal church” should be considered against the defrocking of an American priest who committed sex offences against two boys. It was dated 1985, when he was in charge of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which deals with sex abuse cases.

Benedict will be in Britain between September 16 and 19, visiting London, Glasgow and Coventry, where he will beatify Cardinal John Henry Newman, the 19th-century theologian.

Dawkins and Hitchens believe the Pope would be unable to claim diplomatic immunity from arrest because, although his tour is categorised as a state visit, he is not the head of a state recognised by the United Nations.

They have commissioned the barrister Geoffrey Robertson and Mark Stephens, a solicitor, to present a justification for legal action.

The lawyers believe they can ask the Crown Prosecution Service to initiate criminal proceedings against the Pope, launch their own civil action against him or refer his case to the International Criminal Court.

Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, said: “This is a man whose first instinct when his priests are caught with their pants down is to cover up the scandal and damn the young victims to silence.”

Hitchens, author of God Is Not Great, said: “This man is not above or outside the law. The institutionalised concealment of child rape is a crime under any law and demands not private ceremonies of repentance or church-funded payoffs, but justice and punishment.

Last year pro-Palestinian activists persuaded a British judge to issue an arrest warrant for Tzipi Livni, the Israeli politician, for offences allegedly committed during the 2008-09 conflict in Gaza. The warrant was withdrawn after Livni cancelled her planned trip to the UK.

“There is every possibility of legal action against the Pope occurring,” said Stephens. “Geoffrey and I have both come to the view that the Vatican is not actually a state in international law. It is not recognised by the UN, it does not have borders that are policed and its relations are not of a full diplomatic nature.”​
 
Too bad the Vatican will cancel this trip faster than you can say pope if they think Dawkins/Hitchens have any legal grounds to pull this off...

ntropy said:
it would be stupid even if something came out of it
Not sure what your point is here.
 

KHarvey16

Member
MassiveAttack said:
Too bad the Vatican will cancel this trip faster than you can say pope if they think Dawkins/Hitchens have any legal grounds to pull this off...

So from the perspective of Hitchens and Dawkins it's win/win.
 
MassiveAttack said:
Too bad the Vatican will cancel this trip faster than you can say pope if they think Dawkins/Hitchens have any legal grounds to pull this off...
If they pull that off, that would be a bigger victory than I expect.
 

harSon

Banned
I agree with the notion that the Pope should be held accountable for misdeeds, but Hitchens is a complete douche whose most likely doing this for little more than self fluffing.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I don't like this kind of thinking at all.

It seems un-Atheist to be like "a religious group is really a whole bunch of deluded individuals"... and then say "they are one group, and I do hold the leader of that group accountable for the actions of all the other members".
 
harSon said:
I agree with the notion that the Pope should be held accountable for misdeeds, but Hitchens is a complete douche whose most likely doing this for little more than self fluffing.

.

I imagine he pissed himself in sheer glee when the thought passed through his mind.

Chipopo said:
Dude just couldn't keep it in his pants. Makes me wonder if his allegiance is to atheism or attention-whoring.
 

Shanadeus

Banned
He deserves it for condemning birth control and saying that abstinence is the ultimate method to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

(Do correct me if I'm wrong regarding this)
 

Chipopo

Banned
Sinatar said:
Why would he publicly announce this before doing it?

Dipshit.

.

Dude just couldn't keep it in his pants. Makes me wonder if his allegiance is to atheism or attention-whoring.
 

Kusagari

Member
BocoDragon said:
I don't like this kind of thinking at all.

It seems un-Atheist to be like "a religious group is really a whole bunch of deluded individuals"... and then say "they are one group, and I do hold the leader of that group accountable for the actions of all the other members".

They're trying to hold him accountable for covering up the actions of the other members.
 

KHarvey16

Member
BocoDragon said:
I don't like this kind of thinking at all.

It seems un-Atheist to be like "a religious group is really a whole bunch of deluded individuals"... and then say "they are one group, and I do hold the leader of that group accountable for the actions of all the other members".

Huh?
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
duckroll said:
This is really stupid, and nothing will come out of it. Just another publicity stunt by attention whores.

Sure, but the Pope personally covered up the rape of many children to avoid bad PR. So PR stunts work both ways.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Chipopo said:
.

Dude just couldn't keep it in his pants. Makes me wonder if his allegiance is to atheism or attention-whoring.

No, announcing it first is the right move. If he comes anyway he may be arrested. If he doesn't come he (1) stays out of the country and (2) can be said to feel guilty or understand he is liable under the law in some countries for what he did.

Again, from Hitchens and Dawkins perspective this is entirely win/win.
 

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
KHarvey16 said:
No, announcing it first is the right move. If he comes anyway he may be arrested. If he doesn't come he (1) stays out of the country and (2) can be said to feel guilty or understand he is liable under the law in some countries for what he did.

Again, from Hitchens and Dawkins perspective this is entirely win/win.

I will eat my hat if the Pope is indicted.
 

Chipopo

Banned
KHarvey16 said:
No, announcing it first is the right move. If he comes anyway he may be arrested. If he doesn't come he (1) stays out of the country and (2) can be said to feel guilty or understand he is liable under the law in some countries for what he did.

Again, from Hitchens and Dawkins perspective this is entirely win/win.

Why would Dawkins and Hitchens care about the Pope being in the UK? Is he tainting the air supply with his noxious religiosity?

And how would the Pope not showing up display guilt? Wouldn't owning up to his punishment be a better indicator of being culpable?

And wouldn't Hitchens and Dawkins prefer a fair trial rather than the assumed guilt of a man in hiding?

But who has that kind of patience, now they have this bitchin' report in the news.
 
cntrational said:
over his alleged cover-up of sexual abuse

Didn't the New York Times issue an apology or retract their statement about the Pope's position and actions in that regard?

It must be said too: this endeavour is not about the victims of abuse, this is about finding every possible way to harm the Catholic faith, borne out of their hatred for it. The media is horribly biased in the way it reports news regarding the Pope and the Catholic Church. As a Catholic, it saddens me.
 

Zeliard

Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
Sure, but the Pope personally covered up the rape of many children to avoid bad PR. So PR stunts work both ways.

Right, but the Pope and the Catholic Church have already been getting horrible PR. They are getting reamed from every corner, and the Pope is essentially burying himself the more he talks.

Not really sure what Hitchens and Dawkins hope to accomplish here. He certainly isn't being arrested in any realistic sense. If they are going for a moral victory, that's fine, but I don't think it's going to be very significant.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Chipopo said:
Why would Dawkins and Hitchens care about the Pope being in the UK? Is he tainting the air supply with his noxious religiosity?

Really? You don't understand why the most famous atheist authors in the world might be pleased if the Pope were forced to stay out of the UK?

Chipopo said:
And how would the Pope not showing up display guilt? Wouldn't owning up to his punishment be a better indicator of culpability?

I don't understand what your argument here is. It's not mutually exclusive.
 

mantidor

Member
soul creator said:
stupid atheists wanting people who commit crimes to be arrested.

why are they so militant?

This isn't a "we want a better world" thing, is an attention whore thing. why else are they saying this now? and what would it accomplish? a bunch of offended catholics and even a diplomatic problem for Britain, and, with the fear of sounding like Lovejoy's wife, they hardly are thinking about the children here. would it really stop the pedophile priests from raping children? that should be the primary concern of anyone, not this camera whoring.

Some people are really naive honestly, it's a publicity stunt. I never really liked much this Dawkings guy but with things like this he's making me hate him, and I'm an atheist.
 

Dali

Member
mre said:
I will eat my hat if the Pope is indicted.
We don't know what your hat looks like. It may be one of those comically tiny caps with a little propeller on top. If you offered to eat the Pope hat, then we'd know you meant business.
 
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