Support NeoGAF

[KAOz]

holy shit is that a new screen from OVA VIII?

don't remember seeing it in VII

It's from the trailer for OVA VIII. Which means truly epic shit will start happening soon.

 

[KHarvey16]

No.

Ratzinger headed the CDF from 1981, but it had no particular or overarching responsibility for dealing with child abuse cases until 2001, apparently at his instigation. Quoting the 1542 document doesn't help - as child abuse is not in itself a doctrinal error. It is a sin and a crime certainly, and possibly grounds for removal as a priest, but there is nothing in that that brings it under the role of the CDF until 2001.

So to say 'it was his job' from 1981 is just plain wrong. It wasn't. And the police analogy doesn't work either, because the CDF had no general responsibility for discipline among the clergy. It still doesn't.

EDIT: And that's why the only cases that will matter for laying criminal liability on Ratzinger will be the German ones from 1977-1982.

Somebody sure thought it was his job since his office dealt with these incidents. This has nothing to do with responsibilities on paper, he and/or his office actually participated in the response to these cases.

 

[Lucky Forward]

Predator priests shuffled around globe

Victim: Transfer of abusive clerics was called ‘the geographical cure’

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil - There he was, five decades later, the priest who had raped Joe Callander in Massachusetts. The photo in the Roman Catholic newsletter showed him with a smile across his wrinkled face, near-naked Amazon Indian children in his arms and at his feet.

The Rev. Mario Pezzotti was working with children and supervising other priests in Brazil.

It's not an isolated example.

In an investigation spanning 21 countries across six continents, The Associated Press found 30 cases of priests accused of abuse who were transferred or moved abroad. Some escaped police investigations. Many had access to children in another country, and some abused again.

Transferring abusive priests was called "the geographical cure," according to Terry Carter, a New Zealand victim. Carter won $32,000 in compensation from the Society of Mary, which oversees the Catholic boarding school outside Wellington where he was abused by the Rev. Allan Woodcock.

Woodcock molested at least 11 boys at four church facilities in New Zealand before being sent by the church to Ireland. He was extradited to New Zealand in 2004, pleaded guilty to 21 sexual abuse charges involving 11 victims and was sentenced to seven years in jail. He was paroled in September 2009.

"They whipped him out of the country to Ireland," Carter said. "They took him out of New Zealand after years of offending in different locations."

 

[Mario]

Transferring abusive priests was called "the geographical cure," according to Terry Carter, a New Zealand victim. Carter won $32,000 in compensation from the Society of Mary, which oversees the Catholic boarding school outside Wellington where he was abused by the Rev. Allan Woodcock.

Woodcock molested at least 11 boys at four church facilities in New Zealand before being sent by the church to Ireland. He was extradited to New Zealand in 2004, pleaded guilty to 21 sexual abuse charges involving 11 victims and was sentenced to seven years in jail. He was paroled in September 2009.

Hmmm some quick Googling confirmed this was the school my younger brother went to for a year, but luckily that was a couple of years after this priest had departed I think. I do have a couple of friends I'm no longer in contact with who definitely were pupils during his time at the school though

 

[Loxley]

Yeah, because you totally can just walk up to the Pope and shake hands/fist bump with him whenever you want because you have the "right" to. They realize that by announcing this there's a chance that Benedict will have five times the security he normally does right?

Idiots.

 

[KHarvey16]

They realize that by announcing this there's a chance that Benedict will have five times the security he normally does right?

Idiots.

Huh?

 

[Salazar]

The impression builds that the work of investigative journalism might never be done with respect to Church-concealed paedophilia. We can keep on finding more, and more horrific, cases. The Church will continue its twinned attitudes of ruthless self-protection and utter, even contemptuous negligence, with the occasional interruption for a bout of piety and public apology - with a charming backhander of public accusation, because after all, it's homosexuality and casual secular attitudes, and the evils of technology, that have caused this suffering.

Time for some fucking law. Past time.

 

[Shanadeus]

Yeah, because you totally can just walk up to the Pope and shake hands/fist bump with him whenever you want because you have the "right" to. They realize that by announcing this there's a chance that Benedict will have five times the security he normally does right?

Idiots.

I doubt the pope, or his guards, could resist if they were to take him into custody.

 

[KHarvey16]

He edited it and still doesn't know wtf is going on :lol

 

[sneakypete]

Fuckin' creepy eyes. I can see the rape in 'em.

 

[phisheep]

Somebody sure thought it was his job since his office dealt with these incidents. This has nothing to do with responsibilities on paper, he and/or his office actually participated in the response to these cases.

Not really. And I'm sorry if I seem nitpicky about this, it is just that I have my lawyer hat on in this thread since we are looking at the potential for criminal charges.

I think what you're saying is that since these cases were referred to the CDF then it must have had some defacto (at least) responsibility for dealing with child abuse cases.

What I'm saying is there there are two almost completely unrelated aspects to this:

There's the business of dealing with discipline within the priesthood, referring things to law enforcement, decisions as to deploying priests and whether they have a pastoral role or any official contact with children and so on. That's down to the local bishop, and until 2001 the CDF had no role in it at all. (And that's why the relevant period for fixing Ratzinger with criminal liability is when he was a bishop in Germany).

The other is the matter of whether a priest remains a priest at all - whether he gets defrocked/laicised/sacked - however you want to put it, except that the word 'sacked' on it's own carries connotations of it being related to whether he carries on with his duties which in this context it isn't (that's down to the bishop and does not depend on the guy being defrocked). That's where the CDF comes in, but it isn't always - or even mostly - a disciplinary matter. There are frequently requests from priests to be laicised, for example because they want to get married, where there is no wrongdoing at all.

The matter of laicisation is considered a doctrinal matter by the Church, and that's what - in this context - the role of the CDF was until 2001.

So the mere fact that cases were referred to the CDF for laicisation does not mean that the CDF had any responsibility for dealing with child abuse cases as such, or that they had any authority to overrule the bishop in this regard.

Sorry for long-ish post - I hope that clarifies things a bit.

 

[BocoDragon]

Ok I've had my say about the sketchy motivations of the new atheists...

...but damn if there isn't some sort of fucked up policy on pedophilia going on within the Church... WHAT ARE THEY THINKING? They're a damn religion... you'd think they'd be the first to condemn something like this. The Amish or the Mormons would have shunned these people.

I believe there must be some sort of old, secret Church policy on how to deal with pedophilia... because it's obviously an old problem... we hear about it now, but this has surely happened many times over the centuries. I bet there is some sort of old practice that is still adhered to... (who knows the messed up origins of it) only now the majority of people would say that it's immoral, if not illegal, to deal with it in such a way.

 

[SmokyDave]

I know you shouldn't judge a book by its cover but man, that's a paedophile if ever I saw one.

It's a real shame that the church is above the law. I dread to think how many victims there are out there.

 

[Salazar]

I believe there must be some sort of old, secret Church policy on how to deal with pedophilia...

No, this is just a majestic arrogance at work.

 

[BocoDragon]

No, this is just a majestic arrogance at work.

It seems like it would be easier for those in power to just expel people like this, though.

If these priests were all buddy-buddy with one another, I'd understand... but it seems like even far flung pedophile priests get the protection of just being "transferred"... I really don't understand. It's not all the work of Ratzinger either, this is an ongoing thing in the Church. IMO it's gotta be some sort of "policy" at work.

 

[KHarvey16]

Not really. And I'm sorry if I seem nitpicky about this, it is just that I have my lawyer hat on in this thread since we are looking at the potential for criminal charges.

I think what you're saying is that since these cases were referred to the CDF then it must have had some defacto (at least) responsibility for dealing with child abuse cases.

What I'm saying is there there are two almost completely unrelated aspects to this:

There's the business of dealing with discipline within the priesthood, referring things to law enforcement, decisions as to deploying priests and whether they have a pastoral role or any official contact with children and so on. That's down to the local bishop, and until 2001 the CDF had no role in it at all. (And that's why the relevant period for fixing Ratzinger with criminal liability is when he was a bishop in Germany).

The other is the matter of whether a priest remains a priest at all - whether he gets defrocked/laicised/sacked - however you want to put it, except that the word 'sacked' on it's own carries connotations of it being related to whether he carries on with his duties which in this context it isn't (that's down to the bishop and does not depend on the guy being defrocked). That's where the CDF comes in, but it isn't always - or even mostly - a disciplinary matter. There are frequently requests from priests to be laicised, for example because they want to get married, where there is no wrongdoing at all.

The matter of laicisation is considered a doctrinal matter by the Church, and that's what - in this context - the role of the CDF was until 2001.

So the mere fact that cases were referred to the CDF for laicisation does not mean that the CDF had any responsibility for dealing with child abuse cases as such, or that they had any authority to overrule the bishop in this regard.

Sorry for long-ish post - I hope that clarifies things a bit.

Official responsibilities become irrelevant when they discover illegal activity is occuring. They even went further though and participated in keeping it secret. There is no argument around that.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I believe there must be some sort of old, secret Church policy on how to deal with pedophilia...

Spankings.

 

[duckroll]

It's from the trailer for OVA VIII. Which means truly epic shit will start happening soon.

Considering there is no release date for VIII.... I'm not sure when "soon" is. :lol

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

It seems like it would be easier for those in power to just expel people like this, though.

If these priests were all buddy-buddy with one another, I'd understand... but it seems like even far flung pedophile priests get the protection of just being "transferred"... I really don't understand. It's not all the work of Ratzinger either, this is an ongoing thing in the Church. IMO it's gotta be some sort of "policy" at work.

The Catholic church is an institution that claims to have near exclusive access to God's messenger on earth. The pope is not merely a man, and the priests and archbishops selected around the world are not merely by whim or chance.

Any activity that suggests that the church itself is flawed, that the men behind it are not devine, that they are prone to error and selfishness and greed and dishonesty and lust like the rest of us, tarnishes the church's claim of being a divinely-inspired beacon of universal truth.

It is theodacy in practice. Instead of questioning "why does god allow bad things to happen to good people", the question is, "why does the church allow bad things to happen to good people?". The latter is much harder to reconcile, and makes it much easier to discard the underlying assumption - that the church is the voice of God.

The illusion of infallibilty was (and arguably still is) much more important to the church than justice. A religion with a lifeline to God cannot simply come out and say "hey, sometimes we fuck up too and we're not always right about everything". They are stuck.

 

[mr_nexus]

I believe there must be some sort of old, secret Church policy on how to deal with pedophilia...

 

[QuickSilverD]

which episode was this?

 

[mr_nexus]

which episode was this?

Red Hot Catholic Love, Season 6.

 

[Dude Abides]

Not the first because we don't even *think* of charging them under such circumstances. I'm personally aware of four or five large organisations where this sort of thing happened, and it would not even cross anyone's mind to charge the current head with anything. Police forces are particularly prone to this sort of thing.

Is the current head implicated in covering up or otherwise facilitating the criminal activity? That is necessary to put whatever examples you are thinking of on all fours with this situation. You seem focused on the fact that Ratzinger is the current head, as if the theory here is one of imputed criminal liability, when the crux of the allegations is that Ratzinger knew or even covered up these abuses. The fact that he is the current head is neither here nor there.

Not the second, because there's no way I am saying it is not a big deal. What I'm saying is that having internal procedures to deal with crimes and discipline is not that unusual even now, and it certainly wasn't at the time - and so treating the Catholic Church as being somehow uniquely malevolent here is way off beam.

Nobody is challenging the Church's right to have internal procedures. What people are challenging is the alleged failure to disclose criminal activity to the appropriate authority, and create situations where known pedophiles were allowed to continue to have access to young children under the Church's auspices.

 

[Dabookerman]

Considering there is no release date for VIII.... I'm not sure when "soon" is. :lol

It would be July-ish no?

 

[Aurora]

Would be great if this worked.

 

[jaxword]

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican's Secretary of State, says the pedophilia is caused by homosexuals.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/14/vatican.homosexuality.pedophilia/?hpt=T2

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7096149.ece

This isn't a random bigot. This is an official Vatican representative saying this.

This is the Cardinal Secretary of State. He has immense power in the Vatican: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_Secretary_of_State

Let me repeat that: The Vatican officially says pedophilia is the fault of homosexuals. Not by the church. The homosexuals.

 

[mre]

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican's Secretary of State, says the pedophilia is caused by homosexuals.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/14/vatican.homosexuality.pedophilia/?hpt=T2

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7096149.ece

This isn't a random bigot. This is an official Vatican representative saying this.

This is the Cardinal Secretary of State. He has immense power in the Vatican: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_Secretary_of_State

Let me repeat that: The Vatican officially says pedophilia is the fault of homosexuals. Not by the church. The homosexuals.

Hey, at least the Church is drawing the distinction between pedophilia and ephebophilia:

A Vatican spokesman said Wednesday that just 10 percent of the abuse cases against priests that were reviewed by the Vatican constituted "pedophilia in the strict sense." The rest were cases of abuse against teenagers, said the spokesman, Federico Lombardi.

That's something Gaf can agree with them about.

 

[QuickSilverD]

Let me repeat that: The Vatican officially says pedophilia is the fault of homosexuals. Not by the church. The homosexuals.

To be fair the majority of the cases of abuse are not in the strict sense pedophilia (as defined by the DSM) so it is not that over the top to claim that the majority of the abusers were homosexuals instead of pedophiles

 

[RiskyChris]

To be fair the majority of the cases of abuse are not in the strict sense pedophilia (as defined by the DSM) so it is not that over the top to claim that the majority of the abusers were homosexuals instead of pedophiles

Omg yes it is way way way over the top.

 

[Snaku]

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican's Secretary of State, says the pedophilia is caused by homosexuals.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/14/vatican.homosexuality.pedophilia/?hpt=T2

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7096149.ece

This isn't a random bigot. This is an official Vatican representative saying this.

This is the Cardinal Secretary of State. He has immense power in the Vatican: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_Secretary_of_State

Let me repeat that: The Vatican officially says pedophilia is the fault of homosexuals. Not by the church. The homosexuals.

 

[QuickSilverD]

Omg yes it is way way way over the top.

Dude I'm just saying that most victims were male teens, not children children (making the priest technically not pedophiles). It would suck just as much if the majority of victims were female teens

 

[msv]

Dude I'm just saying that most victims were male teens, not children children (making the priest technically not pedophiles). It would suck just as much if the majority of victims were female teens

Then it would technically be rape, going on a tangent about homosexuality is completely missing the point. It's obviously a sort of escape that works for those who don't question.

 

[RiskyChris]

Dude I'm just saying that most victims were male teens, not children children (making the priest technically not pedophiles). It would suck just as much if the majority of victims were female teens

What the FUCK does sexuality have to do with rape.

Read the fucking article. He literally says "homos did it they cause pedophilia"

If the victims were female teens are people going to be tripping over they dick so they can talk about "heteros" or it the discussion going to be about perverts.

It absolutely is over the top. Do you disagree with what you said?

 

[mantidor]

I wouldn't dismiss homosexuality in priesthood that fast.

Sure the cardinal's comments are obviously homophobic, but catholicism is prevalent around very homophobic countries, and priesthood is the perfect magnet for gay men ashamed of themselves, denying sexuality is abhorrent but that basically is what catholic priesthood is about. So mix a repressed sexuality and self-hate with a job that requires permanent contact with a community, including the children and teens and you can get a higher number of incidents with male teens. Reports of abuse by priests with girls are almost non-existant.

Of course saying that child abuse is "because of the gays" is dumb and offensive, and jumping to conclusions, but I'm sure most priests are gay men themselves, the proportion of gay men in catholic priesthood is far higher than in the regular population, some of you have more sources, weren't there studies about this? I'm sure they were.

In summary, the problem is not homosexuals, the problem is homophobia, if you really care about the root causes.

 

[CharlieDigital]

That's ignoring that many of these priests were equal opportunity molesters; getting their hands on boys and girls.

 

[BocoDragon]

The Catholic church is an institution that claims to have near exclusive access to God's messenger on earth. The pope is not merely a man, and the priests and archbishops selected around the world are not merely by whim or chance.

Any activity that suggests that the church itself is flawed, that the men behind it are not devine, that they are prone to error and selfishness and greed and dishonesty and lust like the rest of us, tarnishes the church's claim of being a divinely-inspired beacon of universal truth.

It is theodacy in practice. Instead of questioning "why does god allow bad things to happen to good people", the question is, "why does the church allow bad things to happen to good people?". The latter is much harder to reconcile, and makes it much easier to discard the underlying assumption - that the church is the voice of God.

The illusion of infallibilty was (and arguably still is) much more important to the church than justice. A religion with a lifeline to God cannot simply come out and say "hey, sometimes we fuck up too and we're not always right about everything". They are stuck.

That was pretty enlightening actually. I really didn't think about the "why" of the whole cover up.

 

[mantidor]

That's ignoring that many of these priests were equal opportunity molesters; getting their hands on boys and girls.

This is why I'm asking for sources, I've never heard of a case of priests molesting girls, common sense tell me there have to be cases, but it seems they are much lower in numbers.

 

[jaxword]

To be fair the majority of the cases of abuse are not in the strict sense pedophilia (as defined by the DSM) so it is not that over the top to claim that the majority of the abusers were homosexuals instead of pedophiles

He didn't just claim they were homosexuals. He claimed pedophilia is a mental condition CAUSED by homosexuals.

Did you read the articles?

 

[Spire]

This is why I'm asking for sources, I've never heard of a case of priests molesting girls, common sense tell me there have to be cases, but it seems they are much lower in numbers.

The priest in this documentary molested girls, including forcing his penis into a female infant. That guy, though, is quite obviously a sociopath. He's interviewed in the film and is just fucking creepy. It's a great doc, I'd recommend everyone check it out.

 

[Monocle]

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican's Secretary of State, says the pedophilia is caused by homosexuals.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/14/vatican.homosexuality.pedophilia/?hpt=T2

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7096149.ece

This isn't a random bigot. This is an official Vatican representative saying this.

This is the Cardinal Secretary of State. He has immense power in the Vatican: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_Secretary_of_State

Let me repeat that: The Vatican officially says pedophilia is the fault of homosexuals. Not by the church. The homosexuals.

Well, isn't it obvious? If the gays cause natural disasters, it's only natural to assume they're responsible for child rape too.

USE YOUR HEAD MAN

 

[Operations]

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican's Secretary of State, says the pedophilia is caused by homosexuals.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/14/vatican.homosexuality.pedophilia/?hpt=T2

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7096149.ece

This isn't a random bigot. This is an official Vatican representative saying this.

This is the Cardinal Secretary of State. He has immense power in the Vatican: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_Secretary_of_State

Let me repeat that: The Vatican officially says pedophilia is the fault of homosexuals. Not by the church. The homosexuals.

Good. The more ridiculous their claims become, the faster they'll slide into irrelevance.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Priests have more private access to boys than girls.

 

[Snaku]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK...niversal-Jurisdiction/Article/201007415669363

Sky News understands that Whitehall officials have been "seriously concerned" that campaigners would use international criminal rules to try to detain the Pontiff while he is in the UK.

Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and human rights lawyer Geoffrey Robertson QC were among those campaigners reported to be looking at the options for bringing a private prosecution in relation to the Pope's alleged cover-up of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church.

Now Justice Secretary Ken Clarke has proposed changes to the rules on universal jurisdiction, a law that allows individuals to be prosecuted in the UK for serious offences such as war crimes, crimes against humanity and torture even if they were carried out abroad.

The plans would mean the Director of Public Prosecutions would need to give his consent to any arrest warrant issued under universal jurisdiction.

This would effectively mean taking that power out of the hands of the courts.

Ministers say the current rules are open to abuse because the evidence required to get a warrant is far below the threshold that would be needed to bring a prosecution.

This has meant the rules are often used by those who wish to make a political statement or to cause embarrassment.

The most recent attempt to obtain an arrest warrant for a foreign dignitary was ahead of the visit by former Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni who cancelled her trip at the last minute to avoid embarrassment.

"Our commitment to our international obligations and to ensuring that there is no impunity for those accused of crimes of universal jurisdiction is unwavering," Mr Clarke said.

"It is important, however, that universal jurisdiction cases should be proceeded with in this country only on the basis of solid evidence that is likely to lead to a successful prosecution - otherwise there is a risk of damaging our ability to help in conflict resolution or to pursue a coherent foreign policy.

"The Government has concluded, after careful consideration, that it would be appropriate to require the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions before an arrest warrant can be issued to a private prosecutor in respect of an offence of universal jurisdiction."

The state visit this September will be the first visit by a Pope to the UK since 1982.

 

[Salazar]

The most recent attempt to obtain an arrest warrant for a foreign dignitary was ahead of the visit by former Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni who cancelled her trip at the last minute to avoid embarrassment.

Oh, Tzipi. Too late, darling.

 

[Zenith]

Now Justice Secretary Ken Clarke has proposed changes to the rules on universal jurisdiction, a law that allows individuals to be prosecuted in the UK for serious offences such as war crimes, crimes against humanity and torture even if they were carried out abroad.

why would you change such a good law?

 

[Salazar]

why would you change such a good law?

:lol

When Clarke was chairman of Cambridge's Conservative Association, he twice invited Oswald Mosley to come and speak. I would have thought that reflected a great degree of comfort with political embarrassment.