Support NeoGAF

[StayDead]

I also find it somewhat insulting that people claim that buff dudes are a power fantasy rather than also objectification. I mean I really don't give a damn either way because I personally find there's nothing wrong with sexualisation. It happens in the animal kingdom, general human life and all forms of media, sex isn't a bad thing and neither is sexualisation.

The only thing I hate is the way devs don't ever try and deviate from the generic bald space marine for all their male characters. Atleast there's many variants of female characters of all different shapes, sizes and races.

 

[JCizzle]

The question about blizzard being a business and making money was perhaps the douchiest question of all time. Hard to take an interviewer like this seriously after such a terrible question.


Am I also reading their site correctly that they have no women on their staff? Just 5 white guys?

 

[Data West]

Keep in mind for the major Night Elves in Warcraft

The woman is fully dressed. The two brothers have Adonis bodies and wear no shirt.

 

[Schweinehund]

best remove brolaf from league, he offends me.

 

[HK-47]

Rock Paper Shotgun always writes with that pretentious tone of someone smug in their self-belief that their opinion is fact. It's detrimental to this crusade it's on because it comes across as condescending zealotry.

No they dont always write like this. This is the first time I've felt repelled by how they asked questions regarding their coverage of objectification.

 

[spirity]

Certainly. I have no doubt that some gamers do argue for better treatment of women in gaming because they want a tangible reward for their troubles. Or because they’re bitter, and they want to make life difficult for their supposed “enemies.” But to believe that’s where all – or even most – people fed up with gaming’s boy’s club mentality are coming from is to view large swathes of humanity in such a bitter, cynical light that it’s just… just…

Infuriating

Gross

Discouraging

Misguided

Sad. Tears-welling-in-my-eyes-as-I-type-this sad. One of my greatest fears on this Earth is that I might someday sink to that level of cynical jadedness. I worry about it every day.

This was where I jumped off. If you have a message and you want to deliver it, I want to hear it, but drop the fake "i weep for humanity" horse shit. Using hyperbole to get your point across only serves to wind me up, and I suspect others will find it a turn off as well. You are wasting your time making that approach.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Blizzard has one of the best art departments in the industry.

Indeed. I will always give them props on that one. It's probably why they were a easy target. They have good art and if it's quesitnable it's because they go for what looks cool and fits their theme. More of that less of "How tarty can we make our characters har har"

 

[Gannd]

This was where I jumped off. If you have a message and you want to deliver it, I want to hear it, but drop the fake "i weep for humanity" horse shit. Using hyperbole to get your point across only serves to wind me up, and I suspect others will find it a turn off as well. You are wasting your time making that approach.

It shouldn't be as much fun if the writer didn't also get to feel smugly superior to people who don't see it the same way that he does

 

[AstroNut325]

I like Blizzard's art direction and their character designs. I don't want any change. Let them create what they want to create. If you don't like it, take your money elsewhere.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Ah, the usual embarrassing array of stone-age NeoGAF thinking. Good on RPS for pushing this, and pushing it aggressively with developers who really need to start doing better.

 

[Gannd]

I want to point out that the box for EverQuest the Ruins of Kunark was designed by a woman. And that has BSDM on it.

 

[JordanN]

If they really wanted to bombard someone about this point in an interview, they could've actually picked a game that is blatantly sexing up their female characters. Accusing HOTS about this really seems like a reach when you have MOBAs with stuff like this:

Isn't Neith based on an Egyptian god? Some ancient works show her as even more sexual, that is, completely nude.

I don't think it's fair when it's completely historical, even if there's some overlap for being blatant.

 

[Aquamarine]

Not only is your premise simplistic (because anyone having read and explored a bit of History would know that it has never been strictly about men versus women, but it always centered around a tiny group of men -and women sometimes,believe it- opressing the majority of people, regardless of their gender), but even if it were true -which I don't necessarily accept, at least not without reserves- it wouldn't matter one iota in judging the situation today.
It would be like giving a guy from a certain ethnicity today a free pass for doing or saying things that would otherwise be totally unacceptable, simply because the group he belongs to was, in the past, the victim of abuse and prejudice.

Thanks for assuming I haven't read or explored any history. Implying that I'm uneducated? That's DEFINITELY the way to win an argument.

I'm not giving a free pass to anyone. I'm saying that you can't look at objectification of men in the same way as objectification of women because the circumstances are different.

And no this is such a cop out answer. So objectification is wrong no matter what you are. "No bro you've had it good this whole time. Now it's your turn to suffer." Give me a break.

Dude, objectification of men is a bad thing too. That's not what I'm arguing.

The problem is when people forget the circumstances behind objectification of women. I see the "Men get objectified too, so it's okay for women in gaming to be constantly, incessantly objectified!" argument all the time.

All I'm saying is that you can't use one to write off the situation.

See this:

It's almost as if a lot of the objectification of women in videogames and modern media has its roots in decades and centuries of stereotypes and prejudices against half the world population whereas a man with his shirt off...has none of those lingering feelings of resentment??? Woah

 

[Imperfected]

I'm simply arguing that violence in videogames causing/giving rise to/influencing violence in real life is just as credible as sexism in videogames causing/giving rise to/influencing sexism in real life (which is a point that has been argued).

That has been the point I've been arguing ever since I've got into this thread.

Yes, and it's a point that never needed to be made, because this isn't about sexism in games creating sexism in real life. I realize you were responding to someone who was steering the conversation in that direction, and it's more on them. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm jumping down your throat.

There is no constructive argument about whether or not the games, due to their gameplay and mechanics, encourage behaviors: they are both games about killing things nonstop, they are both games that heap rewards on the players for doing so, and neither one of them are games where sex or sexism are actually factors in the actual gameplay (as opposed to, say, some of David Cage's games). The message that the gameplay Heroes of the Storm sends isn't what's in question.

The question is purely what message the character designs send. There are legitimate criticisms to be had regarding the male character designs in games, CoD and otherwise: they are by and large Caucasian and trend toward hetero-normative in the extreme, and there's a healthy argument to be had in whether or not they send players poor messages with regards to things like the ethnic distribution of the armed forces (America's army is actually a "minority-majority" force, despite depictions of most characters in FPS games being white), hyper-masculine behavior being unnecessarily linked with professionalism or prowess, etc.

The character designs in CoD do not, however, encourage violence. They are (mostly) clean-shaven, nebulously 20-to-30 year old men in military uniforms. The character designs aren't giving you killstreaks or rewarding you with slow-motion chase cams on knife throws, that's the gameplay. The problem the journalist had with HotS is not that the gameplay is somehow encouraging or contributing to real-world sexism, it was that the character designs in MOBA games tend to send the message that only attractive, scantily-clad women can be heroic, much in the same way that many FPS games seem to think only attractive, clean-cut 20-something white guys can save the world.

It's a completely different axis of consideration when compared to the "video games influence real world behavior" problem.

 

[Data West]

I want to point out that the box for EverQuest the Ruins of Kunark was designed by a woman. And that has BSDM on it.

People have this weird idea that all women don't like to let their characters look sexual. There should be a better balance in all games, but sites like these seem to want it only one way.

It's the usual male games journalist speaking for what women want instead of going to the women.

 

[Outright Villainy]

Whilst RPS can be a bit heavy handed at times, at least they're actually trying to be critical of what's often pretty problematic representations in gaming. Whether you think this particular instance deserves particular attention or not, it's more an issue of it being so pervasive in so many instances, you sort of have to call it out when nothing changes one iota.

I also find it somewhat insulting that people claim that buff dudes are a power fantasy rather than also objectification.

It's more the fact that it's intended to be a power fantasy. Some escapism for the guys. And the scantily clad women, why that's just some eye candy for the guys. The problem is female gamers just don't enter their minds at all, as if women are this mythical creature.

 

[phantomspiker]

This was where I jumped off. If you have a message and you want to deliver it, I want to hear it, but drop the fake "i weep for humanity" horse shit. Using hyperbole to get your point across only serves to wind me up, and I suspect others will find it a turn off as well. You are wasting your time making that approach.

That's where I stopped as well, cringe inducing writing IMO.

 

[Riposte]

As far as I can see he didn't say "it is just a game", so IDK.

Regardless, the battle over "what videogame as art should mean" is pointless when "art" is meaningless and left as a vague marketing brand people can exploit. There is nothing to say that "you have to accept every kind of criticism because you want to be art" when "art" is nonsense and you can say whatever you want is or is not art (e.g. "games which pander to male sexuality is not art!"). Yes, other mediums have these criticisms (videogames always had too), but it is not as if they are always treated with the same amount respect (nor are they special criticisms pulled from the fabric of endless possible critical comments). "Listen to me or you're not art!" is tedious in an already tedious (pointless) conversation.

People are framing the entire conversation (in their favor) without the frame actually having any substance. It is very religious in that respect.

Blizzard has one of the best art departments in the industry.

Yeah, their artists are so good their games don't even need good art.

 

[DarkLiberator]

If you ignore the last few questions, that was actually a great interview. lots of detail.

 

[Usobuko]

It shouldn't be as much fun if the writer didn't also get to feel smugly superior to people who don't see it the same way that he does

Appropriate and identical to some of the replies in this thread.

 

[Tookay]

Ah, the usual embarrassing array of stone-age NeoGAF thinking. Good on RPS for pushing this, and pushing it aggressively with developers who really need to start doing better.

I see you share the RPS writer's smug sense of superiority.

 

[Dougstyles]

Ah, the usual embarrassing array of stone-age NeoGAF thinking.

And it just wouldn't be an objectification thread without the telltale smug condescension.

 

[PaulExcellent]

That was a terrible PR answer, but RPS were just making questions that seem a bit... hostile?

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Nudull]

So, Browder's response was basically, "Yeah, we've been doing it, but we don't really mean it because herpderp vidyagaems."

Blizzard, I love you, but no.

 

[Open Source]

When are they going to start crusading against the hypersexualization and objectification in porn, another branch of fantasy-based entertainment geared primarily towards men but enjoyed broadly by both sexes?

 

[Rafterman]

I see you share the RPS writer's smug sense of superiority.

And it just wouldn't be an objectification thread without the telltale smug condescension.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[The Technomancer]

As far as I can see he didn't say "it is just a game", so IDK.

Regardless, the battle over "what videogame as art should mean" is pointless when "art" is meaningless and left as a vague marketing brand people can exploit. There is nothing to say that "you have to accept every kind of criticism because you want to be art" when "art" is nonsense and you can say whatever you want is or is not art (e.g. "games which pander to male sexuality is not art!"). Yes, other mediums have these criticisms (videogames always had too), but it is not as if they are always treated with the same amount respect (nor are they special criticisms pulled from the fabric of endless possible critical comments). "Listen to me or you're not art!" is tedious in an already tedious (pointless) conversation.

Who's arguing this?

 

[drproton]

I think a lot of the schism between opposing viewpoints on these topics comes from how we see the role of the creator. Art absolutely influences the way people see the world and themselves, but I don't believe that the onus is on a creator to censor themselves from influencing someone's thinking. I believe in self-determination, and that a person has a right and a responsibility to decide what kind of media they consume.

 

[Shake Appeal]

I see you share the RPS writer's smug sense of superiority.

When a seeming minority of people at this message board (and a majority in this thread) seem incapable of engaging with the history of women's objectification and subjugation and doing even the smallest bit to empathize with the experience of the others without falling into every predictable pitfall that comes with their male privilege being under threat, it's hard not to.

When are they going to start crusading against the hypersexualization and objectification in porn, another branch of fantasy-based entertainment geared primarily towards men but enjoyed broadly by both sexes?

Probably the very same day they stop being a, uh, videogames site.

 

[Riposte]

Who's arguing this?

Perhaps I'm not the clearest writer (especially when just shooting from the hip), but this question doesn't need to be answered when you consider what I'm actually trying to say. To be clear, I'm referring to quoted part of RPS follow up article about "wanting to be art except when not wanting to be criticized".

 

[HK-47]

Who's arguing this?

Riposte in the magical land of make believe.

I dont get it either.

 

[Metrotab]

Do what you want, 'cause an artist is free!

 

[usea]

I think a lot of the schism between opposing viewpoints on these topics comes from how we see the role of the creator. Art absolutely influences the way people see the world and themselves, but I don't believe that the onus is on a creator to censor themselves from influencing someone's thinking. I believe in self-determination, and that a person has a right and a responsibility to decide what kind of media they consume.

I very super strongly believe in the right of the artist to create whatever they want. I would also urge people to vote with their wallets when they feel it's warranted. If it offends your sensibilities, consider not buying it!

But I also believe in the right to criticize artists, their decisions, and their art.

I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to say an artist has a responsibility to avoid creating art which would have a negative impact (or contribute to a negative impact). I believe they have such an impact, but I think it's up to an artist to decide whether they feel a moral obligation to have a positive impact when they know their art is going to be dropped into a particular context.

I am 100% against any sort of forced responsibility on the part of the artist (government regulation, etc).

 

[Imperfected]

This topic has come up fairly often with regards to MMOs and MOBAs in the past, and it should be worth noting:

Most women do not want the games to be completely bereft of "sexy" female designs, costume options, etc. They simply want a robust selection of non-sexualized options: female characters who are "serious business" to offset the sexualized ones. The problem is that with many games (Tera, League of Legends for a very long time, etc.) the distribution of sexualized female characters/costumes to non-sexualized ones is so ridiculously skewed that you often don't have a practical choice in whether or not to use them: every decent set of high-level gear for your character is skimpy, every female AD carry champion has a "sexy" skin, etc.

The only thing they're really asking for is options, most of the time.

 

[Gannd]

When a seeming minority of people at this message board (and a majority in this thread) seem incapable of engaging with the history of women's objectification and subjugation and doing even the smallest bit to empathize with the experience of the others without falling into every predictable pitfall that comes with their male privilege being under threat, it's hard not to.

In other words: If someone doesn't agree with you and is male, we should sit down and shut up because of "privilege". The whole concept of privilege which is a modern contraction from the social studies department and universities is such a farce.

 

[AwShucks]

I'm so sick of RPS and their holier than thou crap they spout. Why do they seriously care so much about the obviously comic style art of HotS?

UGH.

Also, WTF Dustin Browder, get back to making Starcraft II and quit working on anything that isn't Legacy of the Void

 

[King Boo]

pretty funny interview. shouldn't have pissed them off so early, could have gotten in more questions

 

[Gannd]

This topic has come up fairly often with regards to MMOs and MOBAs in the past, and it should be worth noting:

Most women do not want the games to be completely bereft of "sexy" female designs, costume options, etc. They simply want a robust selection of non-sexualized options: female characters who are "serious business" to offset the sexualized ones. The problem is that with many games (Tera, League of Legends for a very long time, etc.) the distribution of sexualized female characters/costumes to non-sexualized ones is so ridiculously skewed that you often don't have a practical choice in whether or not to use them: every decent set of high-level gear for your character is skimpy, every female AD carry champion has a "sexy" skin, etc.

The only thing they're really asking for is options, most of the time.

Which, I think, everybody agrees with. I think the answer is to have more diversity in characters and not less. This is why I'm such a big proponent of customized character creation. Let people create their own characters the way they wish them to be. I loved City of Heroes because the character creator allowed me to make the character I wanted. It's why I like Saints Row more than GTA. If we allow players to input more of their choice into their character it allows people who want sexy to be sexy and people who don't to not. That's the solution, at least in my opinion.

 

[ezekial45]

Some might cry afoul of “censorship,” but come on, really? A) These character designs are not at all crucial to these games’ plots or playability and B) if anything, they serve to pull people out of the moment by being so preposterous. In fairness, the biggest offender, LoL, is taking slow baby steps toward improving, and DOTA, I guess, isn’t nearly as bad as it could be. Blizzard, meanwhile, has so far offended far more in word than in deed, but even then its track record kinda speaks for itself – and not really in a good way.

Sorry, this is total bullshit. Saying it doesn't serve any purpose is the worst excuse I've heard in a long time. It absolutely is censorship. Who are you to judge an artist's choice for design and demand them to change it because it bothers you?

Trying to supercede artistic merits because of some vague and self-rightous attitude for whatever agenda is ridiculous.

 

[Slavik81]

This topic has come up fairly often with regards to MMOs and MOBAs in the past, and it should be worth noting:

Most women do not want the games to be completely bereft of "sexy" female designs, costume options, etc. They simply want a robust selection of non-sexualized options: female characters who are "serious business" to offset the sexualized ones. The problem is that with many games (Tera, League of Legends for a very long time, etc.) the distribution of sexualized female characters/costumes to non-sexualized ones is so ridiculously skewed that you often don't have a practical choice in whether or not to use them: every decent set of high-level gear for your character is skimpy, every female AD carry champion has a "sexy" skin, etc.

The only thing they're really asking for is options, most of the time.

This comes off reasonable. RPS comes off as demanding the end to sexy characters across the entire medium.

 

[Tookay]

When a seeming minority of people at this message board (and a majority in this thread) seem incapable of engaging with the history of women's objectification and subjugation and doing even the smallest bit to empathize with the experience of the others without falling into every predictable pitfall that comes with their male privilege being under threat, it's hard not to.

And that gives you the privilege of being a dick to others... how exactly?

 

[The Technomancer]

In other words: If someone doesn't agree with you and is male, we should sit down and shut up because of "privilege". The whole concept of privilege which is a modern contraction from the social studies department and universities is such a farce.

Sorry, which side was complaining about condescension again?

 

[Pimpwerx]

When a seeming minority of people at this message board (and a majority in this thread) seem incapable of engaging with the history of women's objectification and subjugation and doing even the smallest bit to empathize with the experience of the others without falling into every predictable pitfall that comes with their male privilege being under threat, it's hard not to.


Probably the very same day they stop being a, uh, videogames site.

Ever go to a night club? Women dress skimpier than that character. Far skimpier. Hell, go to a mall and see if you find many shorts longer than that character is wearing. Empathy is one thing, but men walk around every day seeing women "objectify" themselves with the outfits they wear.

This is a societal issue, not a gaming, entertainment or arts one. Women don't dress conservatively anymore. Many of them actively engage in wearing what some in this thread might consider revealing or even degrading clothing. Hell, look at what Halloween has become. Dressing up on Halloween now means dressing up as a "slutty ____". Insert any character you want, and they'll sexualize it. Perhaps the general view of sexuality in this country/world has changed and some of you are just falling behind the times.

It's one thing to think this sort of imagery is restricted solely to video games, but it's not. The real world has become far racier than that image the RPS interviewer was referring to. That character at least has a respectable top on, and nowhere near the shortiest shorts you'll find even on a typical trip to the park or mall. Guys spend the most money in this industry, so there's nothing wrong with giving them something they find visually appealing. PEACE.

 

[Freeman]

RPS saving the world from male tyranny...

They chose the longest possible strategy to get laid.

 

[JordanN]

The problem the journalist had with HotS is not that the gameplay is somehow encouraging or contributing to real-world sexism, it was that the character designs in MOBA games tend to send the message that only attractive, scantily-clad women can be heroic, much in the same way that many FPS games seem to think only attractive, clean-cut 20-something white guys can save the world.

See, this is the stuff I don't get or can't read in to.

Did you talk to the developers and that was their answer? Did any developer say "we will never have an ugly fatso on our list of heroes"?

Make no mistake, I'm interested in hearing your side but it's such a big leap of logic based off what could be considered circumstantial evidence. It might even be a fallacy even.

"Because x happen a lot, y then must be true." Correlation does not imply causation.

I think the PR guy made it obvious they're not sending any messages. They're just designing characters they like which happen to be that way.

 

[Gannd]

Sorry, which side was complaining about condescension again?

The whole idea of privilege is to shut down dissenting opinions. It's completely condescending.

 

[diamount]

Holy crap, maybe ask some questions about DESIGN and GAMEPLAY choices. RPS have really going down in quality lately.

 

[The Technomancer]

The whole idea of privilege is to shut down dissenting opinions. It's completely condescending.

Its often used that way. That doesn't mean the concept is invalid. It smacks of either naivety or deliberate disingenuousness to pretend that certain groups have not historically enjoyed significant privileges that are still felt today, and this kind of historical ignorance is exactly the context in which he was using the word privilege.

 

[Dougstyles]

I seriously can't believe people still invoke male privilege and expect it to engender good conversation.

That it continues to happen shows just how disconnected from reality these people are. Do you think an unemployed or underemployed 20-something man with 75k in student loan debt is going to give a shit about his "privilege" as it relates to video game characters? Get real.

 

[drproton]

I seriously can't believe people still invoke male privilege and expect it to engender good conversation.

That it continues to happen shows just how disconnected from reality these people are. Do you think an unemployed or underemployed 20-something man with 75k in student loan debt is going to give a shit about his "privilege" as it relates to video game characters? Get real.

Yeah, I don't think I've ever subjugated anyone being an unemployed man in his 20s living with his parents.