Lunarwhale
Member
After finishing it the other day, I'm happy to say that I still love Innocent Sin (and that Im really loving Eternal Punishment)! Lets positive thinking about these wonderful games: I want to talk a bit about how I came around to loving the (frequently despised) gameplay in this duology, and why in general I find the games so engaging. Full disclosure: Im heavily biased to Innocent Sin due to some nostalgia, but Ill try to approach my opinion in a way that isnt entirely clouded by this. Ill be spoiler tagging a couple parts, but in general, Im going to keep the OP free of any.
Recently got the urge to give Persona 2: Innocent Sin another go. I havent had a serious playthrough of it since the fan translation of it came back in late 2008. Despite never finishing it due to a save issue, I loved what I had played of Innocent Sin, but later attempts to get back into it didnt click with me the same way. Got nostalgic over the story, loved the characters and depth to the world, but the gameplay was a bit of a barrier. Even after going through Persona 1, I found IS hard to get back to. It's very different and feels a bit clunky at first. Battles are full of menus that occasionally feel superfluous, and the PSP version introduced this obnoxious menu lag (a mandatory selection animation plays, delaying further input by a good second or so) which just compounded existing issues.
I was also playing it wrong.
This playthrough, the battle system finally clicked with me. I stopped interrupting the flow every turn to re-issue commands, and just stuck with a singular strategy for each enemy set. I was wrong to think that the gameplay was just slow or dated - it most certainly does have a flow to it. Auto-battle being the primary way to handle encounters felt strange at first, but it made dungeon crawling a quicker experience. Experimenting was enjoyable due to the Persona rank system and the possibility of unlocking spell fusions serving as constant rewards. Demon negotiations are both an amusing distraction and a great alternative to battling once you get used to it. If there's an enemy you don't feel like fighting because it gives out an obnoxious status ailment, learn to make peace with it instead. Most of Persona 2's gameplay is just learning to adjust to it and being open to alternative playstyles. It could be streamlined further, yes (again, menu lag, good lord!), but what's there is actually good. It's different and unique. I won't try to claim that it's perfect, or that everybody would love it if they just gave it more time, I just think that it's gotten an unfair rap in this regard when I really don't see it as being any worse than other games of its time. If you just want to rush through battles, you can, but if you want to enjoy battles, you've got options to play around with.
Persona 2 constantly rewards you, whether it's typical EXP, Persona ranks, tarot cards for making new Personas, new spell fusions, whatever. You shouldn't just play each battle one way. Go in open to handling enemy formations differently. This is the beauty of P2's gameplay loop. It takes out the aspect of repetitive inputs JRPGs suffer from via auto-battle, and gives you multiple (rewarding) ways to get out of a situation. I'll admit that maybe I just made peace with it, that maybe it isn't as good or creative as I'm giving it credit for, but at the very least this mindset led me to appreciate what the game did.
Rumor system was cool, too, as far as out-of-battle gameplay goes. It was fun to go around the city, getting information that led to sidquests, optional boss fights, or better equipment becoming available. It doesn't have as much variety as it could have, but it's a neat way to give player small options to shape the world of the game.
Dungeon design was great for the most part, lot of good variety in terms of layouts, but I really wish it kept the first person perspective Atlus's other Megami Tensei titles of this era. I feel like there just isnt enough on display, and the map screens (and minimap) are zoomed in too far and show each tile - great for a first person DRPG, not so much for a third person one with larger dungeons. Its really a far smaller complaint than it seems like, though. I genuinely enjoyed most of the dungeons in the game, with only one or two overstaying their welcome. Breaking them up with frequent story scenes was such a nice way to keep my engagement. Admittedly, the encounter rate was a bit too high. Estoma didn't work as well as it should have either.
So the conversation system in Innocent Sin is bloated, making it a pain to succeed with, but the demon conversations are so fun and charming that I hardly minded taking some time in each dungeon to just mess around with it. The various personalities kept it fresh, and it was really rewarding to finally figure out how to get their attention (god bless Eternal Punishment for streamlining this though).
Admittedly, though, I still wasnt playing IS for the gameplay (even if I ended up genuinely having fun with it - cue the cynical stockholm syndrome remarks). Its story is what really draws me to it, dealing with the social contract in a unique way by focusing on rumors, the nature of truth, interpersonal connections, childhood trauma, self-delusion, racial identity, and more. The entire series has handled most of this to some extent, but I think that Persona 2 really does it best.
Also, it really goes wild with the rumors becoming reality thing. The following image is under a spoiler tag just in case, but its not a spoiler as much as a tease of a midgame plot thread (that I think most people who know about Innocent Sin are already aware of).
Lord I love Innocent Sins cast, by the way. Including the world, which I want to talk about first. NPC dialog constantly changes in Innocent Sin, and it does such a phenomenal job building the world of the game. Like, to the point of dropping plot threads you otherwise wouldnt pick up on. Midgame spoiler examples:
The chemistry of the main group of characters felt genuine and pleasant (also devoid of uncomfortable sexual harassment, thanks), and made the later revelation that
feel natural. Mayas probably my favorite of the bunch, but I really grew close to all of them, and I was extremely happy to see the teases of Tatsuya and Jun having a romantic relationship actually come to fruition (albeit optionally). Not that the game was perfect with LGBT representation (couple of NPCs had me rolling my eyes), but its a huge improvement over Persona 5s singular (predatory...) gay couple.
This parts just going to be in spoilers, but the ending?
So now Im playing Eternal Punishment for the first time (PS1 version on my Vita), and am loving it already (just finished the Sanitarium dungeon, which has a gorgeous theme). Ive really got to wonder what people who didnt play Innocent Sin so far would think of the story - it seems to do a good enough job building up its own sense of mystery, but knowing how Innocent Sin ends has me wondering so much at this point.
From a gameplay perspective, Im enjoying how Eternal Punishment feels like a natural growth of Innocent Sins difficulty curve. IS was a very easy game, but EPs dungeons feel similar in length to some of ISs mid-late game ones. Im also finding myself needing to make greater use of the Velvet Room, demon negotiations, and changing strategies mid-battle. It makes the game feel much more engaging in general.
tl;dr: Please give Persona 2 a chance. Give yourself a bit of time to adjust to the gameplay, emulate with a fast forward button if you need to, skip animations, etc. It's a legitimately very good, fun RPG with an excellent story once you get used to it. If you need help with any part of it, I'd be happy to help.
Recently got the urge to give Persona 2: Innocent Sin another go. I havent had a serious playthrough of it since the fan translation of it came back in late 2008. Despite never finishing it due to a save issue, I loved what I had played of Innocent Sin, but later attempts to get back into it didnt click with me the same way. Got nostalgic over the story, loved the characters and depth to the world, but the gameplay was a bit of a barrier. Even after going through Persona 1, I found IS hard to get back to. It's very different and feels a bit clunky at first. Battles are full of menus that occasionally feel superfluous, and the PSP version introduced this obnoxious menu lag (a mandatory selection animation plays, delaying further input by a good second or so) which just compounded existing issues.
I was also playing it wrong.
This playthrough, the battle system finally clicked with me. I stopped interrupting the flow every turn to re-issue commands, and just stuck with a singular strategy for each enemy set. I was wrong to think that the gameplay was just slow or dated - it most certainly does have a flow to it. Auto-battle being the primary way to handle encounters felt strange at first, but it made dungeon crawling a quicker experience. Experimenting was enjoyable due to the Persona rank system and the possibility of unlocking spell fusions serving as constant rewards. Demon negotiations are both an amusing distraction and a great alternative to battling once you get used to it. If there's an enemy you don't feel like fighting because it gives out an obnoxious status ailment, learn to make peace with it instead. Most of Persona 2's gameplay is just learning to adjust to it and being open to alternative playstyles. It could be streamlined further, yes (again, menu lag, good lord!), but what's there is actually good. It's different and unique. I won't try to claim that it's perfect, or that everybody would love it if they just gave it more time, I just think that it's gotten an unfair rap in this regard when I really don't see it as being any worse than other games of its time. If you just want to rush through battles, you can, but if you want to enjoy battles, you've got options to play around with.
Persona 2 constantly rewards you, whether it's typical EXP, Persona ranks, tarot cards for making new Personas, new spell fusions, whatever. You shouldn't just play each battle one way. Go in open to handling enemy formations differently. This is the beauty of P2's gameplay loop. It takes out the aspect of repetitive inputs JRPGs suffer from via auto-battle, and gives you multiple (rewarding) ways to get out of a situation. I'll admit that maybe I just made peace with it, that maybe it isn't as good or creative as I'm giving it credit for, but at the very least this mindset led me to appreciate what the game did.
Rumor system was cool, too, as far as out-of-battle gameplay goes. It was fun to go around the city, getting information that led to sidquests, optional boss fights, or better equipment becoming available. It doesn't have as much variety as it could have, but it's a neat way to give player small options to shape the world of the game.
Dungeon design was great for the most part, lot of good variety in terms of layouts, but I really wish it kept the first person perspective Atlus's other Megami Tensei titles of this era. I feel like there just isnt enough on display, and the map screens (and minimap) are zoomed in too far and show each tile - great for a first person DRPG, not so much for a third person one with larger dungeons. Its really a far smaller complaint than it seems like, though. I genuinely enjoyed most of the dungeons in the game, with only one or two overstaying their welcome. Breaking them up with frequent story scenes was such a nice way to keep my engagement. Admittedly, the encounter rate was a bit too high. Estoma didn't work as well as it should have either.
So the conversation system in Innocent Sin is bloated, making it a pain to succeed with, but the demon conversations are so fun and charming that I hardly minded taking some time in each dungeon to just mess around with it. The various personalities kept it fresh, and it was really rewarding to finally figure out how to get their attention (god bless Eternal Punishment for streamlining this though).
Admittedly, though, I still wasnt playing IS for the gameplay (even if I ended up genuinely having fun with it - cue the cynical stockholm syndrome remarks). Its story is what really draws me to it, dealing with the social contract in a unique way by focusing on rumors, the nature of truth, interpersonal connections, childhood trauma, self-delusion, racial identity, and more. The entire series has handled most of this to some extent, but I think that Persona 2 really does it best.
Also, it really goes wild with the rumors becoming reality thing. The following image is under a spoiler tag just in case, but its not a spoiler as much as a tease of a midgame plot thread (that I think most people who know about Innocent Sin are already aware of).
Lord I love Innocent Sins cast, by the way. Including the world, which I want to talk about first. NPC dialog constantly changes in Innocent Sin, and it does such a phenomenal job building the world of the game. Like, to the point of dropping plot threads you otherwise wouldnt pick up on. Midgame spoiler examples:
Junko Kurosu suddenly disappearing and shadowselves are revealed by an NPC a few hours before you see them in the story are two that really added to my engagement in the story events at this point.
The chemistry of the main group of characters felt genuine and pleasant (also devoid of uncomfortable sexual harassment, thanks), and made the later revelation that
they were friends for one summer as children, though usually wearing masks when around each other, before a traumatic event caused them to repress their memories
This parts just going to be in spoilers, but the ending?
fucked me up bad. yes I absolutely punched Philemon, holy shit. I was so relieved that I had an option to do that. The entire theme of fathers being a childs first obstacle was cleverly interwoven throughout the game, making the final boss feel so very poignant. And Mayas death, while spoiled for me beforehand, still had a heavy impact on me. The entire story was so wonderfully built up in a way that I hope to analyze at some point down the line.
So now Im playing Eternal Punishment for the first time (PS1 version on my Vita), and am loving it already (just finished the Sanitarium dungeon, which has a gorgeous theme). Ive really got to wonder what people who didnt play Innocent Sin so far would think of the story - it seems to do a good enough job building up its own sense of mystery, but knowing how Innocent Sin ends has me wondering so much at this point.
Sudou going on about the other side, characters experiencing deja vu, Maya having a bruise where she was stabbed to death, demons seeming to have a larger impact on the average person...
From a gameplay perspective, Im enjoying how Eternal Punishment feels like a natural growth of Innocent Sins difficulty curve. IS was a very easy game, but EPs dungeons feel similar in length to some of ISs mid-late game ones. Im also finding myself needing to make greater use of the Velvet Room, demon negotiations, and changing strategies mid-battle. It makes the game feel much more engaging in general.
tl;dr: Please give Persona 2 a chance. Give yourself a bit of time to adjust to the gameplay, emulate with a fast forward button if you need to, skip animations, etc. It's a legitimately very good, fun RPG with an excellent story once you get used to it. If you need help with any part of it, I'd be happy to help.