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[Plinko]

If this was leaked for feed back.

Ms needs to target a $399-$499 launch price and upgrade the hardware. Need to target 10x x360.

Because if there is anything this generation showed us, it's that pushing for a high price point and a superpowerful system works wonders.

 

[USC-fan]

Because if there is anything this generation showed us, it's that pushing for a high price point and a superpowerful system works wonders.

It sure does. X360 launched at $399 amd was high powered and it along with the ps3 is the only systems still selling well.

And the only system I even have hooked up is a ps3. So to me that is the best system this Gen. It not about sales age. Just because a system doesn't sale as fast as another system does not mean its better. Seeing the legs of ps2 I wouldn't be surprise to see the ps3 being the top selling at the end...

 

[Wolves Evolve]

Brilliant. Yes, massively expensive consoles just as the world economy tanks a second time. Bring that on.

 

[Plinko]

It sure does. X360 launched at $399 amd was high powered and it along with the ps3 is the only systems still selling well.

And the only system I even have hooked up is a ps3. So to me that is the best system this Gen. It not about sales age. Just because a system doesn't sale as fast as another system does not mean its better. Seeing the legs of ps2 I wouldn't be surprise to see the ps3 being the top selling at the end...

The Wii tanked because Nintendo and third parties flat out stopped supporting it--plain and simple. I love all three systems, but your analysis is ridiculous.

The PS3 struggled HARD. Sony lost a ton of money. Microsoft has had one good year and still hasn't recovered the money it lost because of that launch and the RROD problem.

I keep seeing GAF members say, "Put out a $599 system with super powers and I'll buy it!"

Yeah, and you'll be one of the few.

Every time I see that I think of the Dark Knight quote, "Some men just want to watch the world burn," except replace "world" with "video game industry."

 

[BlackJace]

The Wii tanked because Nintendo and third parties flat out stopped supporting it--plain and simple. I love all three systems, but your analysis is ridiculous.

The PS3 struggled HARD. Sony lost a ton of money. Microsoft has had one good year and still hasn't recovered the money it lost because of that launch and the RROD problem.

I keep seeing GAF members say, "Put out a $599 system with super powers and I'll buy it!"

Yeah, and you'll be one of the few.

Every time I see that I think of the Dark Knight quote, "Some men just want to watch the world burn," except replace "world" with "video game industry."

You can't hear me, but I'm clapping. Excellent post, man.

 

[USC-fan]

The Wii tanked because Nintendo and third parties flat out stopped supporting it--plain and simple. I love all three systems, but your analysis is ridiculous.

The PS3 struggled HARD. Sony lost a ton of money. Microsoft has had one good year and still hasn't recovered the money it lost because of that launch and the RROD problem.

I keep seeing GAF members say, "Put out a $599 system with super powers and I'll buy it!"

Yeah, and you'll be one of the few.

Every time I see that I think of the Dark Knight quote, "Some men just want to watch the world burn," except replace "world" with "video game industry."

So are you saying wii had third party support at one point? I don't remember that. Seem the wii miss almost every AAA 3nd party game.

Why release a $300 "next-gen system" when you have a $200 ps360 already at that price point? Those system are not going away. Sony will have $99 ps2, $199 ps3 and I hope $499 ps4.

Do you forget the wii even sold out at $400? Getting one under $400 was a steal at launch. X360 was the same way at launch.

 

[Miles X]

The Wii tanked because Nintendo and third parties flat out stopped supporting it--plain and simple. I love all three systems, but your analysis is ridiculous.

The PS3 struggled HARD. Sony lost a ton of money. Microsoft has had one good year and still hasn't recovered the money it lost because of that launch and the RROD problem.

I keep seeing GAF members say, "Put out a $599 system with super powers and I'll buy it!"

Yeah, and you'll be one of the few.

Every time I see that I think of the Dark Knight quote, "Some men just want to watch the world burn," except replace "world" with "video game industry."

I agree with you overall but MS have made back the money they lost on initial 360 losses/RROD, and have had a few good years, especially when you consider how old the system is and that it hasn't had a price cut since 08.

 

[gamergirly]

You can't hear me, but I'm clapping. Excellent post, man.

That dude was here since 2007, he should have had the same post at Plinko. It's the sad, sad truth of this generation

 

[BlackJace]

So are you saying wii had third party support at one point? I don't remember that. Seem the wii miss almost every AAA 3nd party game.

Why release a $300 "next-gen system" when you have a $200 ps360 already at that price point? Those system are not going away. Sony will have $99 ps2, $199 ps3 and I hope $499 ps4.

Do you forget the wii even sold out at $400? Getting one under $400 was a steal at launch. X360 was the same way at launch.

What the Hell are you talking about. Seriously. 250 is a different number than 400. If you paid 400 for a Wii at launch, you were doing it wrong.

 

[Glorified G]

As for how we check these types of stories. I have been reporting on Microsoft for around 12 years now. That's not to say I know everything about Microsoft and its processes, but I have a fairly good idea of what is and isn't an internal doc usually after the first few pages. This document in question is from August 2010, prior to iOS 4.2 (mentioned in the PPT notes) and when certain team members (mentioned in doc notes) were still at the company in engineering roles. The document references several employees by name and uses one of Microsoft's internal "CSG_Pres" PowerPoint templates (an early example of their Metro style PowerPoint templates that are used regularly internally now).

This is good news. I don't know why anyone is worried about the specs. Especially if the rumors are true and ms bumped up the ram to 8gigs. If they end up shipping with atleast a 1.5tflop gpu this will end up being really powerful console & a definite generational leap.

I just hope whatever the launch price will be will not come with a subscription fee. ($299 + 15/month for 2 years OR $599)

 

[Monty Mole]

What the Hell are you talking about. Seriously. 250 is a different number than 400. If you paid 400 for a Wii at launch, you were doing it wrong.

To be fair, everywhere was sold out of Wii consoles for a good few months after launch and prices were hitting beyond even $400 on eBay. There was a time when there was absolutely no stopping Wii, not even sure exactly when it crashed. I'm not sure Nintendo is either.

 

[USC-fan]

What the Hell are you talking about. Seriously. 250 is a different number than 400. If you paid 400 for a Wii at launch, you were doing it wrong.

Bundles at stores and then you had just the wii console on the resell market over $400!

 

[BlackJace]

To be fair, everywhere was sold out of Wii consoles for a good few months after launch and prices were hitting beyond even $400 on eBay. There was a time when there was absolutely no stopping Wii, not even sure exactly when it crashed. I'm not sure Nintendo is either.

I understand the eBay prices. I saw 900 dollar ps3's too.
He's sounding like 400 dollars was the selling retail price of the Wii...and uh, it wasn't.

 

[Photolysis]

To be fair, everywhere was sold out of Wii consoles for a good few months after launch and prices were hitting beyond even $400 on eBay. There was a time when there was absolutely no stopping Wii, not even sure exactly when it crashed. I'm not sure Nintendo is either.

It crashed when it stopped being the must-have gimmick for the fickle market section, which was what lead to the inflated prices due to supply and demand. Whenever that was.

It needs to be recognised that it was a fairly unique situation and the price could not have been sustained otherwise, aside from the rush to grab one at launch for the hardcore adopters. Not to mention that the economy was much stronger at the time.

 

[Plinko]

I just hope whatever the launch price will be will not come with a subscription fee. ($299 + 15/month for 2 years OR $599)

I think this is highly likely.

Not having the time to completely scour the entire 50-some pages, did it mention the idea that the system will be either anti-used games and/or always have to be connected to the internet?

 

[Plinko]

I agree with you overall but MS have made back the money they lost on initial 360 losses/RROD, and have had a few good years, especially when you consider how old the system is and that it hasn't had a price cut since 08.

The latest report was that MS had not, in fact, made back that money yet. We just had this discussion in another thread last week. Maybe somebody dug up something new that said otherwise, but the latest figures MS released said nothing about making back that money and the figures didn't add up to a value that would have made that up.

 

[Ghost]

I think this is highly likely.

Not having the time to completely scour the entire 50-some pages, did it mention the idea that the system will be either anti-used games and/or always have to be connected to the internet?

No but it's a 2 year old document that was probably written before MS went to publishers and asked what they wanted to see.

 

[KageMaru]

Because if there is anything this generation showed us, it's that pushing for a high price point and a superpowerful system works wonders.

Thing is $400 wouldn't really be considered a high price, especially after considering inflation and such. I don't think we should realistically expect game consoles to be <=$300 forever and this is coming from someone who previously refused to spend more than $400 on a game console.

 

[Glorified G]

I think this is highly likely.

Not having the time to completely scour the entire 50-some pages, did it mention the idea that the system will be either anti-used games and/or always have to be connected to the internet?

Didn't mention anything about used games. But there is a quote "Always On". But that could mean a number of things.

 

[derder]

What the Hell are you talking about. Seriously. 250 is a different number than 400. If you paid 400 for a Wii at launch, you were doing it wrong.

I sold Wii's every week for $400+. Just sit in line for up to 8 hours on a sunday playing DS, plop down $268 (or whatever it was with tax), and meet up with some parent that couldn't do the same.

I did that for the 360s (for a few weeks) and my launch ps3s, but I was able to do that for like 3 months with the Wii. The wii was worth more than $250 to just about anyone who wanted one the first month of release.

 

[Alcibiades]

It crashed when it stopped being the must-have gimmick for the fickle market section, which was what lead to the inflated prices due to supply and demand. Whenever that was.

It needs to be recognised that it was a fairly unique situation and the price could not have been sustained otherwise, aside from the rush to grab one at launch for the hardcore adopters. Not to mention that the economy was much stronger at the time.

I would call complete dominance over a 3-year period "fickle" support.

The Wii market didn't crash until 2011. That aside, a $400 Wii price could have probably been sustained for at least a year after launch, if not more. Wii wasn't readily available everywhere until 2008, although before the fall of 2007 there were months were it wasn't sold out everywhere.

 

[KageMaru]

I sold Wii's every week for $400+. Just sit in line for up to 8 hours on a sunday playing DS, plop down $268 (or whatever it was with tax), and meet up with some parent that couldn't do the same.

I did that for the 360s (for a few weeks) and my launch ps3s, but I was able to do that for like 3 months with the Wii. The wii was worth more than $250 to just about anyone who wanted one the first month of release.

Yup, had a friend that did the same thing and sold them over Ebay. He did this for 3 or 4 months and made plenty of money. If Nintendo wanted to sell an HD Wii for $400 back then, they could have. They just couldn't take that risk without knowing how well the Wii would have sold in the first place.

 

[Plinko]

Thing is $400 wouldn't really be considered a high price, especially after considering inflation and such. I don't think we should realistically expect game consoles to be <=$300 forever and this is coming from someone who previously refused to spend more than $400 on a game console.

Economy is terrible right now for everyone in NA except for the top 10%. Latest report had figures that the middle-class and lower-class have had total income actually drop while every other expense is rising. That extra money just isn't there, and the extra money that is there tends to go to Apple products and/or cell phones.

I'm not saying this wouldn't be successful at $399. In fact, I think that one of the two Sony/MS consoles will be very successful at that price. I just think the other one won't. I think we're hitting a point where there isn't room any more for three home consoles to be supported by consumers. To me, after this generation, we're left with an MS and a Nintendo console future.

 

[USC-fan]

Xbox 360 launch at $400 in 2005. In today's $ that is $470.69.

Ms should target $499 launch price.

 

[Mpl90]

Xbox 360 launch at $400 in 2005. In today's $ that is $470.69.

Ms should target $499 launch price.

499$ because so noone would buy it?

 

[USC-fan]

499$ because so noone would buy it?

I would line up to buy it if its 10x ps360.

Just like the Xbox 360.

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

Your premise is right, but your conclusion is suspect. We don't know how long they've been running with durango, so why should we automatically assume they had to have came up with it a year + earlier ... and view that as proof this info is fake?

That's terrible reasoning.

?

I don`t think it´s fake and that`s not what i wanted to express with my post. You got the context wrong.

 

[Miles X]

The latest report was that MS had not, in fact, made back that money yet. We just had this discussion in another thread last week. Maybe somebody dug up something new that said otherwise, but the latest figures MS released said nothing about making back that money and the figures didn't add up to a value that would have made that up.

I don't believe there has been any 'report' unless you're talking about financials, in which case since Mid 2005 the EDD has made 100m profit, that includes RROD, 360 losses, Kin losses, Nokia payouts ect.

Why are you expecting some sort of response from Microsoft on the matter?

 

[Geek]

Hey guys.

Tom Warren here (Senior Editor at The Verge). I posted this story at The Verge yesterday. I just wanted to clear up a few things and address some points I've seen posted elsewhere etc. The Xbox 720 leak was covered by The Verge at The Verge, not Polygon at The Verge. I know the temporary home can be confusing at times, but thought it was important to point that out.

As for how we check these types of stories. I have been reporting on Microsoft for around 12 years now. That's not to say I know everything about Microsoft and its processes, but I have a fairly good idea of what is and isn't an internal doc usually after the first few pages. This document in question is from August 2010, prior to iOS 4.2 (mentioned in the PPT notes) and when certain team members (mentioned in doc notes) were still at the company in engineering roles. The document references several employees by name and uses one of Microsoft's internal "CSG_Pres" PowerPoint templates (an early example of their Metro style PowerPoint templates that are used regularly internally now).

Couple this with the fact it aligns with other information I've seen about Nextbox over the past year, it aligned perfectly. The document also references Microsoft's SmartGlass technology (announced at E3). I went through a number of other ways to verify the information was as accurate as other stories we would report on - I'm not going to outline the exact processes because I like to keep those secret

We make every attempt to ensure this type of data is accurate. I ran a number of stories ahead of this year's E3, and they were all accurate:

Microsoft to bring full Internet Explorer browsing to Xbox 360 with Kinect controls
Exclusive: Kinect Play Fit to offer universal exercise tracking with 'Joule' heart rate monitor
Exclusive: $99 Xbox 360 + Kinect bundle launching next week with two-year subscription
Exclusive: Microsoft to preview 'Woodstock' Xbox music service at E3

Hopefully this clears up any questions over how we vet this type of information. I don't typically report on Xbox or gaming news (its not my core knowledge) but I do enjoy reading Neogaf threads from time to time. You guys have an amazing community here so keep it up

Thanks,
Tom

Thanks, Tom.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Didn't mention anything about used games. But there is a quote "Always On". But that could mean a number of things.

It means it is literally always on. It's like a Roku: no power button. It stays in a low power mode on the dual arm application processor and only spins up the big CPU & GPU as needed.

 

[Plinko]

I don't believe there has been any 'report' unless you're talking about financials, in which case since Mid 2005 the EDD has made 100m profit, that includes RROD, 360 losses, Kin losses, Nokia payouts ect.

Why are you expecting some sort of response from Microsoft on the matter?

As I said before, we've already had this discussion. Someone else was also saying MS made it's money back and they were proved wrong. Again, if something new appeared since that discussion that says otherwise, that's fine--I just haven't seen it yet.

 

[Plinko]

It means it is literally always on. It's like a Roku: no power button. It stays in a low power mode on the dual arm application processor and only spins up the big CPU & GPU as needed.

After the disaster that was WiiConnect 24 and it's constant overheating, this doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

 

[Syphon Filter]

at $500 not many would buy it. its about majority.

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

I would line up to buy it if its 10x ps360.

Just like the Xbox 360.

I would do the same if the hardware would be worth it with a strong GPU. But the document points at a weak GPU considering the low overall system cost ($225) and low wattage.

4 gb RAM is good, CPU seems alright but the GPU will be the bottleneck if MS runs with that plan.

 

[KingJ2002]

I definitely would not buy a system for 500 dollars at launch

why?

+ Small Game Library
+ Unproven Hardware
+ Unproven First-Party Support
+ Small Userbase


The entry point must be attractive for anyone to see it's key features and feel as if it's worth it... while also competing with hardware (and software) that feature the same bullet points.

who knows what apple has in store by next year considering how far it's cemented iOS as a gaming platform.

If they launch a service to counter what microsoft or sony brings to the table... you better believe the next xbox will have to be priced no higher than 399

and that's for the "premium" model.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Economy is terrible right now for everyone in NA except for the top 10%. Latest report had figures that the middle-class and lower-class have had total income actually drop while every other expense is rising. That extra money just isn't there, and the extra money that is there tends to go to Apple products and/or cell phones.

I'm not saying this wouldn't be successful at $399. In fact, I think that one of the two Sony/MS consoles will be very successful at that price. I just think the other one won't. I think we're hitting a point where there isn't room any more for three home consoles to be supported by consumers. To me, after this generation, we're left with an MS and a Nintendo console future.

Largely i agree with you, but MS and Sony has to make their consoles future proof or at least their consoles should last 7-10 years. So they might cram power into their console , as much power as $400 + subsides allow. Of course not big subsidies, because Sony and MS don´t want to lose to much money on the hardware.

We know that Sony will cram a lot of power for reasonable price (reasonable to the tech that´s crammed into the console), and Sony might sell it at $400.

I don´t see MS or Sony charging more than $400 for their base console.

 

[Miles X]

As I said before, we've already had this discussion. Someone else was also saying MS made it's money back and they were proved wrong. Again, if something new appeared since that discussion that says otherwise, that's fine--I just haven't seen it yet.

'We' You and I?

I'm going based on financial data released from Microsoft and it tells me they've made a 100m profit in the EDD. Now that includes many other products, but most count towards losses rather than profit.

Just in case we're misunderstanding each other, I'm talking about the 360 being a profitable venture, not the original Xbox.

 

[Plinko]

'We' You and I?

I'm going based on financial data released from Microsoft and it tells me they've made a 100m profit in the EDD. Now that includes many other products, but most count towards losses rather than profit.

Just in case we're misunderstanding each other, I'm talking about the 360 being a profitable venture, not the original Xbox.

No--"we" is GAF in general.

I believe the conversation was about MS's latest financial data and that their profit label was misleading because it did include all those other products and that the actual figures showed they still hadn't made up their loss on the 360. They should soon, however.

 

[Plinko]

Largely i agree with you, but MS and Sony has to make their consoles future proof or at least their consoles should last 7-10 years. So they might cram power into their console , as much power as $400 + subsides allow. Of course not big subsidies, because Sony and MS don´t want to lose to much money on the hardware.

We know that Sony will cram a lot of power for reasonable price (reasonable to the tech that´s crammed into the console), and Sony might sell it at $400.

I don´t see MS or Sony charging more than $400 for their base console.

I agree with you. MS and Sony right now have to find the right balance between future-proofing and affordable. It's tough--and probably much tougher now than it was 7 years ago.

 

[nasos_333]

Because if there is anything this generation showed us, it's that pushing for a high price point and a superpowerful system works wonders.

It worked better than wonders for MS though

So, they are the most likely to follow the same scheme

They are the top selling HD and hardcore console on the market for sure and has everything to do with the fact that is still standing up against PS3 visually, with games like Halo 4, Gears 3-Judgment, Forza Horizon, Witcher 2 and the best looking version of most multiplatforms like Skyrim, RDR etc

Should PS4 have a huge visible difference in all multipltform games, i see 720 getting the distant 3rd place next gen and loosing much of 3rd party support

MS with the super strong Xenos at launch, managed to remain relavant visually even today, getting the full core gamer support and their trust that they deliver

If that is gone next gen, i doubt they will have any success with core gamers, that will simply wait for PS4 or go to PC

 

[Plinko]

It worked better than wonders for MS though

So, they are the most likely to follow the same scheme

But as we've been arguing, they STILL haven't recouped the money they lost on 360 yet.

 

[nasos_333]

But as we've been arguing, they STILL haven't recouped the money they lost on 360 yet.

Is that official ? Any links ?

 

[Miles X]

No--"we" is GAF in general.

I believe the conversation was about MS's latest financial data and that their profit label was misleading because it did include all those other products and that the actual figures showed they still hadn't made up their loss on the 360. They should soon, however.

Do you have a link to the thread, AFAIK everything that's been released points towards it making a profit. Unless Office Mac is some massive money spinner.

 

[Zabka]

Economy is terrible right now for everyone in NA except for the top 10%. Latest report had figures that the middle-class and lower-class have had total income actually drop while every other expense is rising. That extra money just isn't there, and the extra money that is there tends to go to Apple products and/or cell phones.

I'm not saying this wouldn't be successful at $399. In fact, I think that one of the two Sony/MS consoles will be very successful at that price. I just think the other one won't. I think we're hitting a point where there isn't room any more for three home consoles to be supported by consumers. To me, after this generation, we're left with an MS and a Nintendo console future.

The economy's been terrible for years, nothing special about right now. 360 sales didn't really take off until after the housing bubble collapsed.

People are willing to pay for entertainment if you give them something worthwhile. A video game system is still far cheaper than taking the kids on a vacation.

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

Largely i agree with you, but MS and Sony has to make their consoles future proof or at least their consoles should last 7-10 years. So they might cram power into their console , as much power as $400 + subsides allow. Of course not big subsidies, because Sony and MS don´t want to lose to much money on the hardware.

We know that Sony will cram a lot of power for reasonable price (reasonable to the tech that´s crammed into the console), and Sony might sell it at $400.

I don´t see MS or Sony charging more than $400 for their base console.

Jep, i agree with you.

 

[elsk]

Looks like Microsoft is still going on the same line as in the end of this gen, a shame. Moving to PlayStation will be much more easier then.

 

[Matt]

I would line up to buy it if its 10x ps360.

Just like the Xbox 360.

Yeah, but you would also post on an internet message board about video games. So...what you would do is largely irrelevant.

 

[GarthVaderUK]

Is that official ? Any links ?

I'd like a link too, I didn't even know we had numbers for 360 (I've only seen Entertainment and Devices Division as a whole).

 

[Ryoku]

I would line up to buy it if its 10x ps360.

Just like the Xbox 360.

You are not the same as a mass market.

 

[onQ123]

I think Microsoft leaked this just to put a shadow over the Wii U, because the thought of a $299 Xbox 3 with Kinect coming out next year would hold a lot of people off from buying the Wii U if they didn't already have their heart set on the Nintendo games.