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[Moral Panic]

It has nothing to do with shooting a messenger or lauding one, you just have to take the entire comment into consideration instead of copying the part you like and running with it.

It's really not a matter of liking or disliking a comment, it's a matter of reading the entire comment instead of one part out of context.

Yep, the context of a "horrible, slow CPU" is pretty clear isn't it? I think it's the other parts that people are taking out of context.

 

[Mastperf]

IDK, although it's a downloadable game Nano Assualt looks and plays pretty incredibly. It's hard to say that it's doing anything the the PS360 couldn't but it's doing it so flawlessly in such a tiny package that it's hard not to be impressed by it.

But after their DS games I'm faily convinced that Shin'en makes their games using dark magic or something so they probably shouldn't be counted

Absolutely. I'm in no way saying the game isn't technically impressive or ugly. The budget is probably pretty low which is always a plus in the current economy.

Nano Assault is out and The Wonderful 101 already has videos to prove it.


The only game I can think of GOWIII but that runs at 45fps and appears to make sacrifices elsewhere (i.e textures).

Those games are hitting 60fps because they're not as demanding. It's a trade-off on the WiiU just as it is on the other consoles.

 

[Saint Gregory]

It looks cool, but nowhere as impressive looking at similar concepted SSDHD, which not just looks better and much busier, but runs in 1920x1080 at rock solid 60FPS (as opposed to 720p in NanoAssault).

Have you played through both? I have and while SSDHD is one of my favorite PSN titles (especially in 3D) NAN is definitely a step above it in modeling and effects. SSDHD has more particles however but that seems like an aesthetic choice.

Remember that SSDHD has gone through several upgrades over the years also to get to its current state.

 

[Sanctuary]

I agree about the OS but it's weird that you're having problems with the browser. That was one aspect of the system that impressed the hell out of me. It's the best non-PC browser I've ever used without a doubt.

The actual internet browser is pretty snappy. I only said dashboard/browser, because I don't know what the correct term for the OS is (I've seen it referred to either of those and almost never OS, which is what I thought it was). I guess talking about dialup made it seem like I was specifically talking about being online, but I really wasn't. I was just using it as an example of sluggishness.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

Nano Assault is out and The Wonderful 101 already has videos to prove it.


The only game I can think of GOWIII but that runs at 45fps and appears to make sacrifices elsewhere (i.e textures).

wait wut?

you are comparing gow3 with nano assult neo?

 

[Van Owen]

Based on? (the first 3 ones) They aren't out if i'm not mistaken. Doubt about neo.

lol there hasn't even been video of Aliens on Wii U available to my knowledge...

 

[Lord Error]

Have you played through both? I have and while SSDHD is one of my favorite PSN titles (especially in 3D) NAN is definitely a step above it in modeling and effects. SSDHD has more particles however but that seems like an aesthetic choice.

Remember that SSDHD has gone through several upgrades over the years also to get to its current state.

It started off in 1280x1080. it's also hard to deny how much busier the game is, not just in particle use but also in flat out geometry use, when you have thousands of chunks of asteroids going around, all being destructible and ready to split into even more chunks directly in the location where you shoot them. They basically have deformable geometry running at all times on all those (potential) thousands of objects. Everything I've seen of NA looks a lot more static compared to that.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

There are several games out that I haven't heard any impressions of at all like Sonic Racing though.

Sonic Racing is fun and plays smoothly overall. We played a 4 player race and I noticed a smidge lower frame-rate when compared to a 3 player race. There are a few bugs with the game. If one of the bugs happens to you during a race, you'll lose. I believe that those bugs are more game related than platform related though.

The bugs:
1.) Not transforming from one type of vehicle to another when going from one environment to another (happened once).
2.) Falling through space where there is no ground and resetting in roughly the same space.

Eventually I was able to get out of both situations by simply waiting out the resets. I'm not sure what logic it uses, but eventually I was put to a point before the location where issues occurred and was eventually able to continue the game and finish the race. That is, finish in last place, of course.

For what it's worth, the Xbox 360 demo for Sonic Racing Transformed was IMHO slow and not fun. Same game, but there was a clear frame rate improvement on the Wii U version. Sure, it's a demo. But I'm not going to buy two copies of the game so that I can compare final patched code on both systems.

 

[ozfunghi]

Becasue the technologies(like shaders etc) that defined this gen was largely new. It isnt just about coding specific hardware, its also about knowing when to employ certain techniques, and when not to and how you use them best.

You are not going to see the sort of learning curve on the wii u. Most of it is known.

Please, in detail, tell me what exactly was so new that devs didn't know how to go about it. Shaders? Please, tell me that you're kidding me. Unless these devs of yours had been living in a cave, not having worked for either the FIRST xbox or PC, this was not the problem. But tell me exactly what techniques were so new, which had nothing to do with getting to know the hardware itself and its architecture. Also, what new techniques were "discovered" in between Halo 3 and Halo 4? Please, share.

 

[phosphor112]

And at least one of those was due to poor programming (turning off frame limiting, turning on VSync), there are also rumors of very small team sizes with low budgets and schedules, and they were using a game engine optimized for XBox 360 (Unreal Engine 3) that got quickly ported to Wii U.

It's very possible that the system is only a little better than XBox 360 or PS3, but we can't really make the call based on those ports.

VSync is going to have to stay on for the gamepad... Just a heads up. Have you noticed, EVERY game so far shown has no screen tearing because of the vsync?

That was my point. WiiU launch games are not representative of what the hardware will be able to output when it's being put to use by devs that have experience with the new hardware, their engine, that are developing on the system as either lead platform or exclusively etc.

Log4girlz likes to ridicule this by stating all the devs must be rookies then.

Sure there will be chances to optimize for the hardware, but you won't see the levels of development, api, and engine enhancements like we did this gen. You simply won't.

 

[phosphor112]

double.

 

[JordanN]

wait wut?

you are comparing gow3 with nano assult neo?

In framebuffer effects why not? I'm trying to make a point the Wii U's extra memory is being used, not if one is pushing more polygons or physics.

Also, that's just one game. Again, how many other PS3/360 games are pushing those effects? Maybe Gears of War and Killzone but I can't think of much else.

Based on? (the first 3 ones) They aren't out if i'm not mistaken. Doubt about neo.

The first two have the best implementation of motion blurring I've seen yet (on consoles of course). The other well, is suppose to support higher resolution textures.

It looks cool, but nowhere as impressive looking at similar concepted SSDHD, which not just looks better and much busier, but runs in 1920x1080 at rock solid 60FPS (as opposed to 720p in NanoAssault).

Nano Assault can take place on huge levels with alot of detail whereas SSDHD plays on one zoomed out planet(?). I'm not sure how that makes it busier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YkoHOGCc66E#t=44s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PLtVweHAj4c#t=34s

 

[Saint Gregory]

It started off in 1280x1080. it's also hard to deny how much busier the game is, not just in particle use but also in flat out geometry use, when you have thousands of chunks of asteroids going around, all being destructible and ready to split into even more chunks directly in the location where you shoot them. They basically have deformable geometry running at all times on all those (potential) thousands of objects. Everything I've seen of NA looks a lot more static compared to that.

It sounds like you really enjoy SSDHD as do I so I'd suggest that you give the game a try at some point. I think the gameplay in SSDHD is better than NAN overall since I kind of prefer the spherical worlds that allow you to focus on the asteroids and enemies but NAN's uneven planetoids and the way the camera comes into play makes the games very different.

I'd like to think it's not a case of launch-tinted glasses but NAN just looks better technically overall due to the environments and more complex enemy designs. SSDHD does get the nod for the sheer amount of particles and geometry flying around though.

Sonic Racing is fun and plays smoothly overall. We played a 4 player race and I noticed a smidge lower frame-rate when compared to a 3 player race. There are a few bugs with the game. If one of the bugs happens to you during a race, you'll lose. I believe that those bugs are more game related than platform related though.

The bugs:
1.) Not transforming from one type of vehicle to another when going from one environment to another (happened once).
2.) Falling through space where there is no ground and resetting in roughly the same space.

Eventually I was able to get out of both situations by simply waiting out the resets. I'm not sure what logic it uses, but eventually I was put to a point before the location where issues occurred and was eventually able to continue the game and finish the race. That is, finish in last place, of course.

For what it's worth, the Xbox 360 demo for Sonic Racing Transformed was IMHO slow and not fun. Same game, but there was a clear frame rate improvement on the Wii U version. Sure, it's a demo. But I'm not going to buy two copies of the game so that I can compare final patched code on both systems.

I've noticed similar bugs in most of the games that I've tried (the first party games being the exception). It does make it seem like a lot of the 3rd party games were under tight time and budget constraints.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

Please, in detail, tell me what exactly was so new that devs didn't know how to go about it. Shaders? Please, tell me that you're kidding me. Unless these devs of yours had been living in a cave, not having worked for either the FIRST xbox or PC, this was not the problem. But tell me exactly what techniques were so new, which had nothing to do with getting to know the hardware itself and its architecture. Also, what new techniques were "discovered" in between Halo 3 and Halo 4? Please, share.

No i wont go into specifics. Because its not about specifics.

Its not about this gen or the last. Its true for all console generation.

Graphics advancment with in an generation isnt just coding certain hardware to the metal. Its to know what to do with the tools and limits you have.

The most obvious case is with psone and the advent of 3d. Later games did not just show more polygons, the ones they had where also put to better use.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

Sure there will be chances to optimize for the hardware, but you won't see the levels of development, api, and engine enhancements like we did this gen. You simply won't.

Just curious. Why do you believe this?

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

I guess the most important question of all is, can it run Crysis? Well, all I know is, we're guaranteed games sporting higher texture resolution than current gen games.

 

[Nostremitus]

Yep, the context of a "horrible, slow CPU" is pretty clear isn't it? I think it's the other parts that people are taking out of context.

Exactly, its horrible and slow at running their CPU-centric unoptimized for the Wii U code. With more time and the budget it wouldn't be an issue, which is what he goes on to say. Right now, however, they aren't in the financial position to take any risks. Spending the money to optimize for a console with a fraction of the install base would be an incredibly risky venture for them.

 

[Mastperf]

Just curious. Why do you believe this?

Why is the WiiU able to have Batman AC, CoD, AC3 and other end-of-generation games at launch? Is it because the hardware is so powerful? No, I don't think anyone believes the WiiU is a beast. It's because these developers have massive amounts of experience with hardware at this level (or a step above perhaps in the WiiU's case) and have matured engines that have developed over the course of this generation. It's been a costly and painful uphill battle to get where they are now and the WiiU gets to enjoy the rewards.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

Why is the WiiU able to have Batman AC, CoD, AC3 and other end-of-generation games at launch? Is it because the hardware is so powerful? No, I don't think anyone believes the WiiU is a beast. It's because these developers have massive amounts of experience with hardware at this level (or a step above perhaps in the WiiU's case) and have matured engines that have developed over the course of this generation. It's been a costly and painful uphill battle to get where they are now and the WiiU gets to enjoy the rewards.

On the flip-side, many of these ports are said to be unoptimized and have frame-rate issues. I don't have any of those titles, but I believe what I've read regarding concerns over the initial ports. That said, I was questioning why phospor112 said that we won't see similar optimizations for the Wii U. To my knowledge, devs have experience on PS3 & 360 platforms, but have just stuck their toes in the water for the Wii U. Add to that the improvements that IdeaMan have talked about with the updated dev kits, I think there's room to grow (also based on some of the stuff I've read). This is why I'm questioning phospor112's statement that we won't see ".. levels of development, api, and engine enhancements like we did this gen."

 

[Mastperf]

He means we won't see the level of advancement that we saw from 1st gen 360 to current software. I agree mainly because the WiiU isn't anywhere near powerful enough for that to happen. It has a more modern gpu but in terms of sheer number crunching, I'd put it near current consoles overall. That's not to say it won't improve as I fully expect it will since it really doesn't have anything comparable to the best current gen software yet.
Keep in mind that I'm mainly going by my opinion that the WiiU is a current-generation level system as apposed to the expectedly "next-gen" PS4/720.

 

[phosphor112]

Just curious. Why do you believe this?

Shaders were a new thing late Xbox and early PS3/360. I mean, take a look at COD 2, and it barely had any. Devs were just learning to use these things. PDZ only had bump maps IIRC. But they were like BRICKS! BEAUTIFUL BRICKS EVERYWHERE! Because they really didn't know many places to use them in.

Now, we've got bump, normal, deferred rendering, data streaming, LOD swapping all the way down to sprites, faking depth of field, doing cheap god rays... I mean, they wont have to learn all these things again. Most of next gen features will be things that are already known. Tesselation, dynamic lighting, and other features already built into engines. Square, Epic and Crytek already showed their latest feature sets and they all include all of these features.

They are prepared for next gen, and more. There is no learning curve because it has already been "learned."

 

[Mastperf]

Shaders were a new thing late Xbox and early PS3/360. I mean, take a look at COD 2, and it barely had any. Devs were just learning to use these things. PDZ only had bump maps IIRC. But they were like BRICKS! BEAUTIFUL BRICKS EVERYWHERE! Because they really didn't know many places to use them in.

Now, we've got bump, normal, deferred rendering, data streaming, LOD swapping all the way down to sprites, faking depth of field, doing cheap god rays... I mean, they wont have to learn all these things again. Most of next gen features will be things that are already known. Tesselation, dynamic lighting, and other features already built into engines. Square, Epic and Crytek already showed their latest feature sets and they all include all of these features.

They are prepared for next gen, and more. There is no learning curve because it has already been "learned."

Parallax mapping I believe.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

Shaders were a new thing late Xbox and early PS3/360. I mean, take a look at COD 2, and it barely had any. Devs were just learning to use these things. PDZ only had bump maps IIRC. But they were like BRICKS! BEAUTIFUL BRICKS EVERYWHERE! Because they really didn't know many places to use them in.

Now, we've got bump, normal, deferred rendering, data streaming, LOD swapping all the way down to sprites, faking depth of field, doing cheap god rays... I mean, they wont have to learn all these things again. Most of next gen features will be things that are already known. Tesselation, dynamic lighting, and other features already built into engines. Square, Epic and Crytek already showed their latest feature sets and they all include all of these features.

They are prepared for next gen, and more. There is no learning curve because it has already been "learned."

Great post, and thanks. I was confusing what was said with platform specific optimizations, which I think (based only on what I've read) are still possible on the Wii U. Whether or not 3rd party devs can afford to spend time on Wii U specific optimizations is another story. I think Nintendo's answer to this lies somewhere within their focus on Unity. I don't want my thoughts on that to further detract from this thread though.

 

[phosphor112]

Parallax mapping I believe.

YES! Thank you.

Great post, and thanks. I was confusing what was said with platform specific optimizations, which I think (based only on what I've read) are still possible on the Wii U. Whether or not 3rd party devs can afford to spend time on Wii U specific optimizations is another story. I think Nintendo's answer to this lies somewhere within their focus on Unity. I don't want my thoughts on that to further detract from this thread though.

Oh yeah, they'll have hardware optimization, but (I don't think) that honestly would be enough to see that significant "boost" in graphics that we saw this gen.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Oh yeah, they'll have hardware optimization, but (I don't think) that honestly would be enough to see that significant "boost" in graphics that we saw this gen.

I think that you're right but I also wonder who's narative that plays into. Does it play into Nintendo's "diminishing returns" narrative or the common "bigger is always better" GAF narrative?

I think the next consoles from Sony and MS are going to be magnitudes more powerful at launch than the WiiU but will developers be able to produce games right away that take advantage of that power or will they have another slow climb as the did with the 360 when it launched?

 

[RurouniZel]

I think the next consoles from Sony and MS are going to be magnitudes more powerful at launch than the WiiU but will developers be able to produce games right away that take advantage of that power or will they have another slow climb as the did with the 360 when it launched?

I disagree with this assumption at least with Sony. Their financial situation at the moment will make it very difficult to do this without a repeat of 599 US Dollars, seeing as they can't afford to lose money on hardware at the moment (see their inability to cut the price of the Vita)

 

[Hcoregamer00]

I think the next consoles from Sony and MS are going to be magnitudes more powerful at launch than the WiiU but will developers be able to produce games right away that take advantage of that power or will they have another slow climb as the did with the 360 when it launched?

Magnitudes more powerful, it is possible.

Heck, the Nintendo Wii U itself would have been much more powerful had they invested the money used in the controller in a more powerful CPU and GPU.

With that said, the Wii U controller could very well be the future feature that gets Nintendo its next "lightning in a bottle".

 

[NBtoaster]

In framebuffer effects why not? I'm trying to make a point the Wii U's extra memory is being used, not if one is pushing more polygons or physics.

Also, that's just one game. Again, how many other PS3/360 games are pushing those effects? Maybe Gears of War and Killzone but I can't think of much else.

What effects? Be specific.

 

[phosphor112]

I disagree with this assumption at least with Sony. Their financial situation at the moment will make it very difficult to do this without a repeat of 599 US Dollars, seeing as they can't afford to lose money on hardware at the moment (see their inability to cut the price of the Vita)

There is no reason to assume it would even cost 599 or would even be sold at a loss.

 

[RurouniZel]

Magnitudes more powerful, it is possible.

Heck, the Nintendo Wii U itself would have been much more powerful had they invested the money used in the controller in a more powerful CPU and GPU.

With that said, the Wii U controller could very well be the future feature that gets Nintendo its next "lightning in a bottle".

I think the Wii U was going to be more powerful, but after the 3DS launch price debacle they scaled it back. And I think the new machines will be more powerful than WiiU, but I'm expecting some inevitable disappointment among Gaffers.

There is no reason to assume it would even cost 599 or would even be sold at a loss.

Right. Which is why I'm expecting something more powerful, but nowhere close to the gulf that existed between Wii and 360/PS3.

 

[ozfunghi]

No i wont go into specifics. Because its not about specifics.

Its not about this gen or the last. Its true for all console generation.

Graphics advancment with in an generation isnt just coding certain hardware to the metal. Its to know what to do with the tools and limits you have.

The most obvious case is with psone and the advent of 3d. Later games did not just show more polygons, the ones they had where also put to better use.

o...k...

 

[Radec]

Almost 11k posts here, do we now know whats underneath the WiiU?

 

[phosphor112]

Right. Which is why I'm expecting something more powerful, but nowhere close to the gulf that existed between Wii and 360/PS3.

BD Drive in the PS3 was over 200 dollars alone. There was a severe diode shortage for it.
Also the cell was over 100 alone as well.

Neither of those will be an issue this time around. AMD is the manufacturer of the chips so high costs won't be a problem at all.

Almost 11k posts here, do we now know whats underneath the WiiU?

Saiyans. Super Saiyans.

Seriously, not much. Ram is low latency, but also stupid low bandwidth (half the speed of the 360's)... we know the GPU and CPU sizes... and what the chips themselves MIGHT be. Nothing definite other than the RAM.

 

[Apophis2036]

Almost 11k posts here, do we now know whats underneath the WiiU?

My thoughts exactly, this thread should be locked / closed, there is already another thread with tear down reports in it, this thread has turned into a bunch of fanboy bickering imo.

Wonder if it would still be going if the OP wasn't EC...

 

[Meelow]

BD Drive in the PS3 was over 200 dollars alone. There was a severe diode shortage for it.
Also the cell was over 100 alone as well.

Neither of those will be an issue this time around. AMD is the manufacturer of the chips so high costs won't be a problem at all.



Saiyans. Super Saiyans.

Seriously, not much. Ram is low latency, but also stupid low bandwidth (half the speed of the 360's)... we know the GPU and CPU sizes... and what the chips themselves MIGHT be. Nothing definite other than the RAM.

Doesn't the Wii U have a good amount of eDram as well?

My thoughts exactly, this thread should be locked / closed, there is already another thread with tear down reports in it, this thread has turned into a bunch of fanboy bickering imo.

Wonder if it would still be going if the OP wasn't EC...

Yeah I don't understand why we have this thread when we have the other thread, this thread is about the old rumors so this thread might as well get closed.

 

[moonbox]

My thoughts exactly, this thread should be locked / closed, there is already another thread with tear down reports in it, this thread has turned into a bunch of fanboy bickering imo.

Wonder if it would still be going if the OP wasn't EC...

This one speaks the truth.

 

[JordanN]

What effects? Be specific.

Like motion blur, depth of field and shadow maps.

 

[phosphor112]

Doesn't the Wii U have a good amount of eDram as well?

Yes, we don't know the speed yet. Though it really doesn't make up for the really slow ram.

Like motion blur, depth of field and shadow maps.

Shadow maps? How is that impressive?

 

[phosphor112]

woops.

 

[Waaghals]

Like motion blur, depth of field and shadow maps.

But these are all run of the mill features. Motion blur is in most 30fps games, depth of field is used in the COD games at 60fps and shadow maps has been used for years in various forms.

There were ps2 and xbox games with rudimentary motion blur....

 

[DragonSworne]

Yes, we don't know the speed yet. Though it really doesn't make up for the really slow ram.

The EDRAM is more than 12% of PS3 Video RAM.

Think about that

 

[phosphor112]

The EDRAM is more than 12% of PS3 Video RAM.

Think about that

I'm assuming you mean 12% more in speed.

Regardless, you can't put all the data through the eDRAM. It's just enough for a single frame buffer pretty much (IIRC 32mb?). There will still be issues between the ram and cpu.

 

[Brashnir]

I'm assuming you mean 12% more in speed.

Regardless, you can't put all the data through the eDRAM. It's just enough for a single frame buffer pretty much (IIRC 32mb?). There will still be issues between the ram and cpu.

no, he means that 32MB is 12.5% of the 256MB on the RSX side of the PS3's RAM split.

 

[phosphor112]

no, he means that 32MB is 12.5% of the 256MB on the RSX side of the PS3's RAM split.

Ah, makes more sense.

I'm not sure what his point is though...

 

[Shogmaster]

The EDRAM is more than 12% of PS3 Video RAM.

Think about that

So 12% of the assets from PS3 ports should be displayed perfectly!

 

[Ken Masters]

when will we know what the final specs are?

 

[phosphor112]

when will we know what the final specs are?

Who knows. I was expecting micrographs of the chips by now.

 

[Apophis2036]

Who knows. I was expecting micrographs of the chips by now.

Will that give us CPU clock speed, CPU Flop count, GPU clock speed, GPU Flop count, eDRAM amount, eDRAM speed ?.

 

[phosphor112]

Will that give us CPU clock speed, CPU Flop count, GPU clock speed, GPU Flop count, eDRAM amount, eDRAM speed ?.

It'll give us a literal picture of the whole device. We'd be able to see the exact sizes of everything. We already know the eDRAM amount. It's 32mb. Also, FLOP count doesn't mean much as a CPU.

 

[Apophis2036]

It'll give us a literal picture of the whole device. We'd be able to see the exact sizes of everything. We already know the eDRAM amount. It's 32mb. Also, FLOP count doesn't mean much as a CPU.

Cool. Let's hope we get it soon, all this arguing about fantasy land PS4 / 720 specs against a console that is actually out but we have no idea of 90% of it's specs is getting ridiculous lol...