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[Vinci]

Sold games tend to drive tie-ratios up. Are we down to "bad/small/cheap games don't count"? As for bundles, there's "they did" vs "they didn't" vs "they must've" without a single source in sight.

Yes, but everyone knows that the Wii doesn't sell games. Wait, no. It sells Nintendo games. And RE4. And Carnival Games, but that one makes sense. It also sells Wii Play but that's for the controller. Sonic & Mario is selling well too, but that's because it has Mario in it. Hmm. Red Steel and Rayman sold well, but that was only because of launch. So yeah, non-issue now.

Seriously, the Wii could sell 400 million games in the span of a year and people would still hold onto any excuse to dismiss its accomplishments.

 

[No Means Nomad]

Ok...I guess I don't really get the point of these kinds of posts. So software numbers for by far the busiest time of the year shouldn't count since it favors the Wii?

Look at the disparity between Wii's December numbers and their overall tie-in ratio. Then look at the 360's December numbers compared to the overall tie-in ratio. It's easy to see the impact Christmas had on the Wii compared to the impact it had on the 360.

 

[Chumly]

So Matt rounded 8 to...10? :lol

Must have included Wii sports then rounded 9 to 10.

At least he was the one to clear it up once the questions were raised.

EDIT: Wii software > 360 software was the main problem and he was right on that.

 

[methane47]

Wii Play probably really shouldn't count against the tie ratio for as many sales as it's had.

 

[Beer Monkey]

360 tie ratio should be more like 14 since half of those systems are probably replacements.

 

[schuelma]

Look at the disparity between Wii's December numbers and their overall tie-in ratio. Then look at the 360's December numbers compared to the overall tie-in ratio. It's easy to see the impact Christmas had on the Wii compared to the impact it had on the 360.

I agree with you, but my point is that November and December software numbers are so huge that it seems a bit unfair to make those 2 months the exception for the year when so much of the yearly sales and high profile game releases are from those 2 months. Does that make sense? I realize I might not be making myself clear...

 

[MightyHedgehog]

My rough estimates of total software based on NPD hardware data and the attach rate

360- 63 million
Wii- 34 million
PS3- 13.5 million

If that's anywhere close to reality then software sales for the PS3 in NA are even worse than I thought previously. Sony's got to be praying for a huge percentage of its December business to be sustained going into Spring.

 

[Xeke]

Wii Play probably really shouldn't count against the tie ratio for as many sales as it's had.

No it shouldn't. Come on dude.

It's basically the same as a Sixaxis or a 360 Controller. So what if it comes with a game too?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Wii Play probably really shouldn't count against the tie ratio for as many sales as it's had.

MS and Sony have had plenty of time to bundle a game with their respective controllers, if they wanted to similarly inflate their tie ratios. They haven't, so you can't blame Nintendo for people wanting Wii Play for whatever reason.

 

[PkunkFury]

Look at the disparity between Wii's December numbers and their overall tie-in ratio. Then look at the 360's December numbers compared to the overall tie-in ratio. It's easy to see the impact Christmas had on the Wii compared to the impact it had on the 360.

ah, but the average Wii owner has also owned the system for far less time than the average 360 owner. The Wii was selling like crazy all summer which hit's the tie ratio, while the 360 was not. For many Wii owners, now was the time to buy games anyway, particularly since a lot of good games were released.

Holidays will always be a big pull for Wii, but I'd be surprised if Wii software sales this year don't pick up over last year. Tie Ratios are not linear and they depend heavily on the amount of time a console has been owned

 

[Belgorim]

So these december numbers are without Wii Sports and other bundled games such as motorstorm, forza etc?

 

[Chumly]

So these december numbers are without Wii Sports and other bundled games such as motorstorm, forza etc?

That is correct. Wii sports doesnt count, Bundled motorstorm doesnt count, Bundled Forze/Marvel doesnt count.

 

[Vinci]

Wii Play probably really shouldn't count against the tie ratio for as many sales as it's had.

So the logic is: If it sells over X amount of units, then it shouldn't count towards Nintendo's tie-ratio. I guess that's the non-game X. Have we properly concluded what that X number actually is? Like how much you have to sell to become a non-game, 'cause I think Halo 3 has reached it.

 

[JJConrad]

We shouldn't count any budget games or any games with accesories - including controller, headset, free online subscriptions, demos, etc... Or we could just go by how NPD counts it and STFU.

 

[Zoramon089]

Man, Japan is REALLY dragging the Wii down in terms of software ratios. Just look at what Nintendo posted:

http://www.videogamer.com/news/24-01-2008-7332.html

Software attachment rates

Americas - 6.9
Europe - 5.6
Japan - 3.4

In America and in Europe the ratio is actually pretty high, and is closer to the 360 than most people would expect, but in Japan...

 

[methane47]

So the logic is: If it sells over X amount of units, then it shouldn't count towards Nintendo's tie-ratio. I guess that's the non-game X. Have we properly concluded what that X number actually is? Like how much you have to sell to become a non-game, 'cause I think Halo 3 has reached it.

The difference being that people buy Halo 3 to play it.. while I know people who have bought multiple copies of Wii Play because of the control it comes with.

The Tie in ratio for the Wii because of that is someone larger than it would be if people were actually buying the game for the game.

I'm just saying that the level of hardness some of you are having right now due to these tie in ratios should be reduced a tad due to this fact.

 

[schuelma]

Man, Japan is REALLY dragging the Wii down in terms of software ratios. Just look at what Nintendo posted:

http://www.videogamer.com/news/24-01-2008-7332.html



In America and in Europe the ratio is actually pretty high, and is closer to the 360 than most people would expect, but in Japan...

I don't know this for sure, but I seem to remember someone saying that for these type of reports, Nintendo does consider Wii Sports. If so, that would explain things to some degree.

 

[Vinci]

I'm just saying that the level of hardness some of you are having right now due to these tie in ratios should be reduced a tad due to this fact.

'Hardness'? Because we're happy to see the Wii sell some damn games? No one in this thread is claiming that the Wii is ever going to compete with the 360's attach ratio, so why be so defensive about it? I'm thrilled the 360's attach ratio is so high. In a way, it provides us with two leaders this generation rather than simply one.

Much more interesting.

 

[ksamedi]

I don't know this for sure, but I seem to remember someone saying that for these type of reports, Nintendo does consider Wii Sports. If so, that would explain things to some degree.

Its shipped numbers. Thats what I understood of it, and you are right, Nintendo does report Wiisports as software shipped. Still though, I think the OP has some more meaningfull numbers which prove that the Wii has an insane attach rate.

'Hardness'? Because we're happy to see the Wii sell some damn games? No one in this thread is claiming that the Wii is ever going to compete with the 360's attach ratio, so why be so defensive about it? I'm thrilled the 360's attach ratio is so high. In a way, it provides us with two leaders this generation rather than simply one.

Much more interesting.

It also shows that the 360 has low hardware sales. The Wii is going to dominate the software charts a year or two from now too.

 

[dejan]

Overall Tie Ratio:
360- 7
PS3- 4.26

Gaming is still alive and kicking!

 

[schuelma]

Gaming is still alive and kicking!

So what do people do on the Wii? Create Mii's?

 

[liuelson]

A very high tie ratio could mean that your system is not selling that well. New owners always bring down the tie ratio because new owners usually only buy a few games with there systems. Its long time owners that pile up games and have big collections. You can see the tie ratio numbers as the average games collection per console sold. The Wii's has a very high tie ratio for such a fast selling system actually. 360's tie ratio is pretty big, but its also because of the lower hardware sales. PS3's tie ratio is very very weak though.

Thanks - that helps. I guess it depends on which part of the fraction is driving the ratio - the numerator (software sales) or the denominator (hardware sales).

I started googling for info, and found an interesting Q&A with Iwata and Miyamoto (question 7). What do you think about their contention that tie ratio may not be as helpful in understanding the Wii market?

 

[No6]

I agree with you, but my point is that November and December software numbers are so huge that it seems a bit unfair to make those 2 months the exception for the year when so much of the yearly sales and high profile game releases are from those 2 months. Does that make sense? I realize I might not be making myself clear...

You make sense and I agree that Nov/Dec shouldn't be discounted for some arbitrary reason. There's analysis to be made in both the trends and types of software being sold during the Nov/Dec spike, but that has more to do with future decisions by publishers and kinda requires the rest of the NPD report.

It also shows that the 360 has low hardware sales. The Wii is going to dominate the software charts a year or two from now too.

I guess that depends on how you define "dominate".

 

[C4Lukins]

Boo on Wii Play for making up the difference, but there is no doubt that software is actually selling extremely well on the Wii, and it is not just 1st party. I really wish we had the entire NPD list to see how Wii budget titles and such are doing. I bet there are a lot of games that did over 100K in December that nobody would have expected.

 

[Kamakazie!]

Why is it so hard to believe? From the limited NPD software data we've gotten, PS3 software has always seemed pretty anemic.

But "Wii software doesn't sell and people only buy it for Wii Sports". Something along those lines even came out of the GameSages podcast... you would think that all those editors in the games industry would be a bit more informed.
Same shit every time Wii software sales are mentioned. No one ever talks about the PS3s.

As said, the Wii attach rate is extremely good for such a fast selling system, especially when considering how many top class games there are in comparison to the 360.

 

[Vinci]

But "Wii software doesn't sell and people only buy it for Wii Sports". Something along those lines even came out of the GameSages podcast... you would think that all those editors in the games industry would be a bit more informed.
Same shit every time Wii software sales are mentioned. No one ever talks about the PS3s.

Did you ever think that maybe they don't want to say bad things about the PS3?

 

[dyls]

360's tie ratio was 4 month 1 (almost) and has produced historic tie ratio's throughout it's run. Ratio's that no other system can claim to hold a candle to.

Do you think it's impossible for the Wii to reach a 7 attach ratio by the end of 2008? (thus in the same time it took the 360 to get there)

 

[No Means Nomad]

I agree with you, but my point is that November and December software numbers are so huge that it seems a bit unfair to make those 2 months the exception for the year when so much of the yearly sales and high profile game releases are from those 2 months. Does that make sense? I realize I might not be making myself clear...

I'm not saying it's unfair, or that it doesn't count more or less, just that it's pretty obvious that the jump in sales is from people buying Wii games as gifts.

 

[felipeko]

Do you think it's impossible for the Wii to reach a 7 attach ratio by the end of 2008? (thus in the same time it took the 360 to get there)

No way (Wii HW sells much faster). But i think by the end of 2008 Wii will have sold more than 63 million software (thus in the same time it took the 360 to get there).

 

[Luckyman]

Still though, I think the OP has some more meaningfull numbers which prove that the Wii has an insane attach rate.

It also shows that the 360 has low hardware sales.

:lol

Oh god..

 

[ksamedi]

Thanks - that helps. I guess it depends on which part of the fraction is driving the ratio - the numerator (software sales) or the denominator (hardware sales).

I started googling for info, and found an interesting Q&A with Iwata and Miyamoto (question 7). What do you think about their contention that tie ratio may not be as helpful in understanding the Wii market?

It could very well be true that the Wii will reach a tie ratio above the 360 when the types of software broaden even more. The first thing Nintendo wanted to do with the Wii is to increase the userrate per household. So even if core gamers would buy the system there parents and/or wives/girlfriends and/or kids and/or friends would play the system as well. Nintendo also made sure the Wii would be placed in the living room by making it small and free of noise. I think with such a high user rate per household it could definitly be possible to reach insanely high software sales. I think efforts like WiiFit will increase the user rate even more.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

Bububu 3rd parties :lol

 

[Vinci]

It could very well be true that the Wii will reach a tie ratio above the 360 when the types of software broaden even more. The first thing Nintendo wanted to do with the Wii is to increase the userrate per household. So even if core gamers would buy the system there parents and/or wives/girlfriends and/or kids and/or friends would play the system as well. Nintendo also made sure the Wii would be placed in the living room by making it small and free of noise. I think with such a high user rate per household it could definitly be possible to reach insanely high software sales. I think efforts like WiiFit will increase the user rate even more.

The Wii will never touch the attach ratio of the 360, man. Sorry to say but there's no chance. The Wii's insane adoption rate will make it virtually impossible. The 360 user base is going to stay at such a level that the amount of games sold per unit remains high; it doesn't have the issue of people buying it only to play Wii Sports or to watch movies on (in the PS3's case). It's a hardcore gaming platform and, as such, will retain a great attach ratio.

The Wii's total software sales will likely eclipse the 360's; it's only a matter of time. But the attach ratio will be untouchable IMO.

 

[Haunted]

Really didn't expect Wii software (supposedly its weakest point!) to surpass the 360 software sales during the holidays... a sign of things to come? Still an amazing overall tie ratio for the 360, though.

Well, however you want to view these numbers, the PS3 is fucked.

Spoiler

What? Proper fucked? [/snatch]

edit: wait, this is without Wii Sports? That got another wow out of me.

 

[speculawyer]

December Tie Ratio's (how many games purchased in December compared to how many consoles sold in the month):
Wii- 8.11
360- 7.76
PS3- 5.04

Yeah, some of software shelves were pretty bare at Christmas . . . especially the Wii shelves at places like Target & Toys R Us. I feel sorry for those poor kids that got the shovelware.

 

[ziran]

Wii will become the dominant system this gen, even for sw sales in every region. This is REALLY obvious now, as obvious as PS2 becoming the dominant system last gen 18 months in, imo. MS and Sony have fucked up becoming the system of the masses, just get over it already.

GAF will fumble about, especially the die hard PS3 and 360 fans, but they're ultimately avoiding the inevitable imo.

 

[Anerythristic]

Wii will become the dominant system this gen, even for sw sales in every region. This is REALLY obvious now, as obvious as PS2 becoming the dominant system last gen 18, months in. MS and Sony have fucked up becoming the system of the masses, just get over it already.

GAF will fumble about, especially the die hard PS3 and 360 fans, but they're ultimately avoiding the inevitable imo.

I get called a fanboy sometimes.

 

[avatar299]

I'm not saying it's unfair, or that it doesn't count more or less, just that it's pretty obvious that the jump in sales is from people buying Wii games as gifts.

Wasn't this the case with the PS2 and other console leaders?

Do you think it's impossible for the Wii to reach a 7 attach ratio by the end of 2008?

It's impossible. Wii hardware sells out to much.

 

[J-Rzez]

Wii Play on the other hand...

Yeah, all the reports use the Controller with demo pack as a game.

Very impressive numbers for the 360, I can say my friend's fit this pattern. They buy a lot more 360 games than PS3 and Wii, though, a large number of them are junk (Zero-G for one example :lol )

 

[Version 3.0]

Do you think it's impossible for the Wii to reach a 7 attach ratio by the end of 2008? (thus in the same time it took the 360 to get there)

I think it'll be tough. For the Wii to even have the tie ratio is does is pretty good, considering it comes with its "killer app".

Also, guys: all these argument go in circles--Wii sports doesn't count, but perhaps it should since it would probably sell as well as Wii Play if sold separately. Wii Play has a controller, but it would probably be the best-selling game if it didn't and was $10. Carnival Games sucks, so it shouldn't count--but it's selling because people like it.

It's silly. The Wii is successful. People should learn to deal with it. Especially since we've not heard the "Wii will kill traditional games" BS lately. Since it's obviously not a threat to the 360's excellent hardcore game library, can't we let the fantasy that it's failing die?

 

[ziran]

I get called a fanboy sometimes.

As I said, just get over it :lol

I'm not saying 360 or PS3 won't please their fans, they will. Their fans are going to love these machines.

However, the 360 and PS3 fans will continue with their, 'but my system of choice has the best line-up of games, so it deserves to sell the best', bullshit, and many people will laugh when this is posted in relation to sales, obviously.

 

[watership]

Wii will become the dominant system this gen, even for sw sales in every region. This is REALLY obvious now, as obvious as PS2 becoming the dominant system last gen 18 months in, imo. MS and Sony have fucked up becoming the system of the masses, just get over it already.

The wii is not the PS2. Games sold well on the PS2.

 

[ksamedi]

I think it'll be tough. For the Wii to even have the tie ratio is does is pretty good, considering it comes with its "killer app".

Also, guys: all these argument go in circles--Wii sports doesn't count, but perhaps it should since it would probably sell as well as Wii Play if sold separately. Wii Play has a controller, but it would probably be the best-selling game if it didn't and was $10. Carnival Games sucks, so it shouldn't count--but it's selling because people like it.

It's silly. The Wii is successful. People should learn to deal with it. Especially since we've not heard the "Wii will kill traditional games" BS lately. Since it's obviously not a threat to the 360's excellent hardcore game library, can't we let the fantasy that it's failing die?

I agree with this. I don't get where the hate comes from. The 360 will always keep selling a lot of software. Maybe not as much as the Wii in the future but still enough for a significant investment.

 

[Eteric Rice]

The wii is not the PS2. Games sold well on the PS2.

Oh here we go...

 

[Uncooked]

So Matt rounded 8 to...10? :lol

I remember having the conversation in the NPD thread about 10 being way too high, knew I wasn't crazy. 8 is still really high though.

 

[scitek]

Can't discount the number of Greatest Hits titles the 360 has compared to the Wii and PS3. Lots of great $30 or less games there.

 

[Azih]

Prediction. Wii software sales are going to be more December centered than other consoles. Wii games are a no brainer Christmas present.

 

[Uncooked]

360 tie ratio should be more like 14 since half of those systems are probably replacements.

Pretty sure that is not how it works.

 

[Vinci]

Does someone know what the PS2's attach ratio was / is? I think that'll give us a decent benchmark for what we might expect given everything goes the Wii's way software-wise. There'll be some variation, of course, but it's worth looking at.

 

[Anerythristic]

As I said, just get over it :lol

I have all three systems. Last time I am stating it. I like all three systems. I happily play Nintendo titles on my Wii.