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[BowieZ]

Cults work in the same way as orgasms. Once you resist them enough, suddenly, you can't take it any more and you explode in a heated swell of subordination to ignorant bliss.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

This is a prime example of the evil genius of Scientology. Google the Cult Awareness Network and read their story, it's quite interesting. The CAN got bought by a CoS front group that calls itself the "Foundation For Religious Freedom".

thanks, i'll read when home.

it's almost comical how they get away with this shit.

 

[Asmodai]

The same way you can get articles about your "religion" that is negative against it removed.

Not from wikipedia anymore :lol

And don't get me wrong, again, I'm not here to defend scientology, hell, I don't defend ANY religion, basically all organized religions have done crimes against humanity for which I think they are deserving of scorn and hatred.

I just thought that scientology was par for the course, along with other notoriously secretive religions like Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc. They all seem to have similar stories of intimidating insiders, shutting off access to the outside world, and shunning any who disagree with them or accuse them of their crimes. And some, like the Jehovah Witnesses, have resulted in deaths of many children by denying them blood tranfusions. I didn't know that the Scientologists had resulted in actual deaths beforehand, though like other cult like religions I had expected crimes of some nature.

 

[Zaptruder]

Tell me, do you think Scientology will ever be viewed as a "mainstream" religion? That will have "mainstream" followers?

I don't think it will. The majority of the world is scared/paranoid/doesn't believe it's "religion" about it.

Oh, too much bat shit crazy stuff is coming out about Scientology for it to ever become a religion with many mainstream followers. Moreover, it's too aggressively anti-consumer (hilarious but applicable). I'm not denying that Scientology is crazy at all. I'm simply saying that splitting religions into cult and normal is a false dichotomy, and that normal religions only appear normal because they have a large number of mainstreamers that bridge the gap between rational thinkers and fundamentalists, and obfuscate the bat shit craziness of the religion.

(from christianity, stuff like killing your children for disrespecting you, or stoning people to death for been raped, or shrimp, or a ton of other bizarre rules. Of course mainstreamers will come in and say, that's bullshit, the new testament supersedes the old testament, blah blah blah... but hey, that's because mainstreamers love to pick and choose.)

 

[Atrus]

The difference between Scientology and normal religions is that Scientology's core church are the "crazies" while the core churches of other religions have nothing to do with the crazy spinoffs.

Also theres many fundamental differences that make Scientology significantly more cult like and worse than normal religions.

'Crazies' and 'Normal' are such ambigious terms. Fundamentalists are fucking nuts, but true to their name, it's because they stick to the fundamentals of their religions not because they've developed esoteric rules that have no basis in their religion.

What's normal? Some religions sacrifice children, others flay the skin of virgins so a religious figure can dance around using it as a cloak. Some worship trees, some worship men, others worship stones. Some worship many gods, some don't have any gods. For some God is a physical thing, others it is an ambigious quasi-philosophy.

Normal makes sense for people who have a basis or came from a particular religious background since their bias dictates normalcy, but there's not exactly a normal standard as to what qualifies as religious oddity.

 

[polyh3dron]

Oh, too much bat shit crazy stuff is coming out about Scientology for it to ever become a religion with many mainstream followers. Moreover, it's too aggressively anti-consumer (hilarious but applicable). I'm not denying that Scientology is crazy at all. I'm simply saying that splitting religions into cult and normal is a false dichotomy, and that normal religions only appear normal because they have a large number of mainstreamers that bridge the gap between rational thinkers and fundamentalists, and obfuscate the bat shit craziness of the religion.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. When LRH started this whole thing, the internet didn't exist and the way the organization was designed was to keep even its own members in complete ignorance of what was really going on. Never let the right hand know what the left is doing and such. Any one person who would speak out and reveal what the CoS was really about would be written off as a complete nutcase because it just sounds too crazy. And of course the CoS could come back with the standard response about said crazy being an apostate, therefore having an axe to grind which means that any critic of the CoS in any position to really know anything about it couldn't possibly be trusted because they are former members.

Even now with the advent of the internet and the spread of knowledge about the practices of the CoS there are many people out there who just don't take the time to look into it and just say "bu bu bu but it's just like christianity lolz" because they just don't feel like reading and processing information. Slowly but surely though, more people are catching on and it is only a matter of time before the truth becomes widely known. The information is out there and easily accessible.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

That chanology stuff is never going to accomplish anything and never was going to. It's laughable.

If you want to hurt scientology you have to get people to stop buying music or going to movies with scientologists in them. Whether or not that gets celebrities to leave scientology or not doesn't matter because movie studios and record companies will drop them if they are going to hurt their business. It would cause most celebrities to leave though. If you take celebrities out of the equation you take away a huge draw for scientology.

That's why they recruit celebrities so heavily, they use them to promote a positive image of the CoS even though the CoS that celebrities belong to and the CoS that ordinary people belong to are very different. I wouldn't be surprised if the CoS also helps celebrities avoid paying their fair share of taxes in someway. I've never heard anything like that but my instincts tell me something like that is happening.

They're accomplishing a shitload of stuff, basically they've raised public awareness of the abuses tenfold which is what needed to be done. They've been a huge boombox for every leak and the protests were an accomplishment in itself.

Chanology might not be popular amongst the /b/tards these days (heck, hasn't been for over a year) but it's accomplishing something.

Also, you give the whole celebrity thing way more weight than it actually has. There's tons of cults trying to find their ways into Hollywood's wallets, several do and it doesn't help them much in the big scheme of things.

Anyways, why are we arguing between ourselves? Another piece exposing the nature of the scientology scam has been made public, let's celebrate.

 

[Asmodai]

Even now with the advent of the internet and the spread of knowledge about the practices of the CoS there are many people out there who just don't take the time to look into it and just say "bu bu bu but it's just like christianity lolz" because they just don't feel like reading and processing information. Slowly but surely though, more people are catching on and it is only a matter of time before the truth becomes widely known. The information is out there and easily accessible.

Dude, I was speaking in general. Religions have used ignorance and fear as tools for thousands of years. Why people like you act as if these cultist idiots were the first to think of it is beyond me.

Yeah, they get more attention because they're more recent. My point is that I don't care how shady and stupid they are, there are dozens of cults just like them in the redneck filled areas of the United States, and their compounds get raided by the FBI every once in a while. And I'm sure the scientologists will be seeing that soon enough as well.

And just because information is easily accessible, why would you assume that everyone knows it? I'm not going to research scientologists just because I can. Am I supposed to research every oppressive cult, religion, or other organization in the world? Am I supposed to read pages about tree frogs on wikipedia just because it's "easily accessible"?

Now you're just making it weirdly political. Yeah, they're a cult, and I disagree with what they do, and hell, if I ran the country, religions in general wouldn't have tax breaks and many of the other stupid perks they enjoy. But what is to be done about them? Ban it? Of course that's ridiculous.

 

[legend166]

(from christianity, stuff like killing your children for disrespecting you, or stoning people to death for been raped, or shrimp, or a ton of other bizarre rules. Of course mainstreamers will come in and say, that's bullshit, the new testament supersedes the old testament, blah blah blah... but hey, that's because mainstreamers love to pick and choose.)

That's pretty stupid, but this isn't the thread for a debate on Christian theology so I'll leave it at that.

 

[TheSeks]

And just because information is easily accessible, why would you assume that everyone knows it? I'm not going to research scientologists just because I can. Am I supposed to research every oppressive cult, religion, or other organization in the world?

No, but if you're going to talk about it. At least go to wikipedia/other sites and read-up on it a little. Is what I think Polyhedron means.

 

[ultim8p00]

Okay, I'm going to break Godwin's law, but whatever. Isn't that a bit like saying Hitler had great ideas except for the whole antisemitism thing?

When you have a dude who tells people that condoms are the work of the devil because it violates some mythology in a book, that's not just being quaint - that's fucking dangerous.

But who's fault is that? He's just being an idiot. The religion he practices is not at fault here. Sometimes I seriously wonder how people reach the conclusions they reach. If everybody practicing his religion believed that condoms are the work of the devil, then you could make an argument that the religion he is practicing is at fault.

Use your heads, rather than your irrational anger at religion.

 

[polyh3dron]

Now you're just making it weirdly political. Yeah, they're a cult, and I disagree with what they do, and hell, if I ran the country, religions in general wouldn't have tax breaks and many of the other stupid perks they enjoy. But what is to be done about them? Ban it? Of course that's ridiculous.

For starters, since it's not actually a religion (which LRH actually says in one of his Philadelphia Doctorate course tapes IIRC) the CoS's tax exemption should be revoked.

 

[Chumly]

That's pretty stupid, but this isn't the thread for a debate on Christian theology so I'll leave it at that.

Seriously WTF.......thats some hardcore distorting to make a point.

 

[TheSeks]

For starters, since it's not actually a religion the CoS's tax exemption should be revoked.

To play Devil's Advocate: What makes a "religion?" I think you could say Christianity isn't a "religion" (but that would open a huge can of worms) with some flimsy accusations, for example. (Not to make THAT the topic of discussion)

So yeah, what makes a religion and why should they get tax exemptions?

 

[polyh3dron]

To play Devil's Advocate: What makes a "religion?"

When the creator of an organization that later masquerades as a religion for tax purposes has its creator explicitly say in an official book of this so called religion which is meant for only Scientologists to read says "Scientology is not a religion" then that makes it not a religion.

(The book I am referring to is Creation Of Human Ability, written by Hubbard in 1954 as opposed to one of his tapes. Google works well.)

 

[Asmodai]

For starters, since it's not actually a religion (which LRH actually says in one of his Philadelphia Doctorate course tapes IIRC) the CoS's tax exemption should be revoked.

Right, as I said earlier I don't think that religious organizations deserve any kind of financial benefit, especially since that financial benefit so often goes toward causes that are sketchy if not openly criminal.

But I guess I just don't understand why some people focus their attention on one religion in particular. For example, in my province of British Columbia, there have been protests about Jehovah Witnesses being a "cult of evil" because their refusal to have blood transfusions has resulted in the deaths of children.

I completely agree with the protesters. But then there are other religions, like the Scientologists, that are similarly criminal.

And in just about every single religion, you get fundamentalists who are hate mongering criminals.

Personally, if I could flip a switch so that religion never existed in history, I think humanity would have suffered much less throughout history and much less today. I think religion has had a negative net influence on the human species, a very negative net influence.

But singling out one of them seems pointless to me. Maybe it's because I always look at the problem as a broad one.

Why some of you are so defensive is beyond me. It's not as if I'm disagreeing with you on anything you're saying. I'm only pointing out that there are other religions equally bad that deserve equal scorn.

In my opinion, they should all be treated the same: committing a criminal act nets them the punishment, irrespective of whatever stupid religious pretext they had for committing the crime. I don't understand how any of you could disagree with that.

And cmon Seks, I'm the devil's advocate here. Well, I didn't intend to be, but apparently I ended up being one.:lol

 

[polyh3dron]

Asmodai, if you would only read up a little bit you would realize that this is a whole different kind of beast and your blanket "Religion Defense Force" statements don't apply here at all.

Every single one of your posts in this thread reveal your complete ignorance of the subject. You are on the internet. Use it.

 

[Asmodai]

Asmodai, if you would only read up a little bit you would realize that this is a whole different kind of beast and your blanket "Religion Defense Force" statements don't apply here at all.

Every single one of your posts in this thread reveal your complete ignorance of the subject. You are on the internet. Use it.

Here I was worried about being called a militant atheist, and now I'm being called the "Religion Defense Force".:lol

Have you read even one of my posts? How am I defending religion? I just said that I think that the world would be a hell of a lot better off without it entirely.

You and 4chan have something in common in that you've both decided to go on some weird vigilante crusade against Scientologists. Yeah, they're freaks, and I couldn't care less, as long as they don't commit a crime. At that point, they turn into criminals , and should be treated as such.

I don't know what your problem is, but then again, you probably don't either. You seem to be outrageously pissed off and mortally offended that I haven't personally read internet articles on Scientology for hours on end.

I wanted to post something more meaningful than "Yeah, scientology is a stupid cult." If that's all you wanted, too bad.

 

[polyh3dron]

You're saying that no one should really talk about this because because 500 years ago other religions did the same thing where in actuality if you knew anything at all about the way the CoS organization works you would know that this isn't the case. You are making blanket statements about something you know nothing about and while you may not be in "Religion Defense Force" mode you definitely are in "Scientology Critic Attack Force" mode while being completely ignorant on the subject.

You also don't know shit about me so don't try to lump me in with the /b/tards. If you're going to respond to my posts, respond to their content, don't try to address what you think may be the motives behind it because you'd be wrong. The only thing that has made me outrageously pissed off ITT is ignorant people.

aaaaand now this thread is probably dead. yet another Scientology thread that I've killed.

 

[Asmodai]

You're saying that no one should really talk about this because because 500 years ago other religions did the same thing

Nope, that's not what I said at all. Congratulations on completely missing the point and yet assuming that you're wrong despite repeated assurances.

You also don't know shit about me so don't try to lump me in with the /b/tards. If you're going to respond to my posts, respond to their content, don't try to address what you think may be the motives behind it because you'd be wrong.

Take your own advice, that would be a good idea.

I'll hazard a guess that you're flinging some of your random scientologist hate at me when it would be better directed at people who are in fact scientologists. Go e-mail Tom Cruise if you care about it that much. But don't assume everyone else does.

I also don't know where you got the ridiculous idea that you're only allowed to take part in a discussion regarding something if you've had your undergrad major in that specialty. Hell, by that definition, since most people don't care about scientology or most other cults for that matter, none of them would be "qualified" to take part in a discussion about it.

aaaaand now this thread is probably dead. yet another Scientology thread that I've killed.

Why am I not surprised to find that this isn't the first one you've killed? :lol

 

[polyh3dron]

It doesn't take an undergrad major to use google.

 

[firehawk12]

But who's fault is that? He's just being an idiot. The religion he practices is not at fault here. Sometimes I seriously wonder how people reach the conclusions they reach. If everybody practicing his religion believed that condoms are the work of the devil, then you could make an argument that the religion he is practicing is at fault.

Use your heads, rather than your irrational anger at religion.

I don't really have a problem with religion per se. The original point was that you can separate the mythology from the religion and extract the "good" morality.

My assertion is that they are intrinsically linked, because a lot if not all the dogma is generated from the mythology in the first place. I mean, how many people have used the whole Eve is made from Adam so therefore women should be subservient to men argument over the last 2000 years? Many people, I'm sure.

 

[polyh3dron]

Nope, that's not what I said at all. Congratulations on completely missing the point and yet assuming that you're wrong despite repeated assurances.

WTF is your point then? Please elaborate.

Take your own advice, that would be a good idea.

kthx

I'll hazard a guess that you're flinging some of your random scientologist hate at me when it would be better directed at people who are in fact scientologists. Go e-mail Tom Cruise if you care about it that much. But don't assume everyone else does.

This is a thread about Scientology, sorry for talking about Scientology. E-mailing Tom Cruise huh, I never thought of that, such a great suggestion.

I also don't know where you got the ridiculous idea that you're only allowed to take part in a discussion regarding something if you've had your undergrad major in that specialty. Hell, by that definition, since most people don't care about scientology or most other cults for that matter, none of them would be "qualified" to take part in a discussion about it.

If you don't know much about it, don't act like you do. Simply ask and others can point you in the right direction. You've made a shitload of assumptions about Scientology in this thread by assuming it's exactly like Christianity and Judaism and Islam etc etc etc. It's completely different.

 

[Asmodai]

If you don't know much about it, don't act like you do. Simply ask and others can point you in the right direction. You've made a shitload of assumptions about Scientology in this thread by assuming it's exactly like Christianity and Judaism and Islam etc etc etc. It's completely different.

Nope, never did that either.

Now I really understand why you killed earlier Scientology threads. Explaining simple concepts to you repeatedly only to have you miss the point more and more, especially given your belligerent attitude, seems more like a waste of time than anything else.

You might have trouble finding someone else to "debate" though. Maybe try being less antagonistic, does wonders for having a civil discussion.

 

[polyh3dron]

Nope, never did that either.

Yes you did. You did it here too. You said that every religion has its fundamentalist nutjobs. The difference with Scientology is that being a fundamentalist nutjob is a requirement. As for going after them criminally, they are SO lawyered up it's next to impossible and if you do try they will bankrupt and destroy you with so many frivolous lawsuits, private investigators and the like.

What was this so called simple concept you were trying to explain that I'm not grasping?

-Religious Orgs don't deserve financial benefit: check

-Why don't some people focus on other religions that are equally as bad like Jehovah's Witnesses: not in the same ballpark of evil, not in the same league. The blood transfucsion thing is fucked up but compared to Scientology that's a drop in the bucket.

-You agree with the protestors, but other religions are just as criminal <--- you just did it here too lookee there

-You would like it if all religions were gone, the world would be better off but singling out one is stupid: again, this is a bit of a different beast. It's more like the Mafia and Amway put in a blender.

There were a few redundant points in there to hammer home whatever you were trying to get across about all religions being just as bad.

Did I miss something, or misread anything?

The lack of reply makes me think I didn't.

 

[Jill Sandwich]

 

[Zaptruder]

Seriously WTF.......thats some hardcore distorting to make a point.

Like I said; non-fundamentalist adherents will cast aside parts of the bible that they deem to be too outlandish. That's why the standard religions don't seem as crazy; because we're no longer interpreting many many parts of it literally; mainstream adherents will pick and choose parts, such that the religion of christians 2000 years hence is an entirely different religion from the christianity of 2000 years prior; as new incontrevertible evidence comes into play and proves bits and pieces of the bible to be complete bullshit, then the interpretations will continually modify.

Moreover, with something like Christianity, there is such a huge and diverse range of interpretations on any particular subject, that people that come into it, are really able to pick and choose as they wish.

Want to believe in genesis, but not leviticus, go ahead. Want to believe in the new testament but not the old, go ahead. Want to believe that the holy spirit that impregnated Mary is simply metaphorical, go ahead.

 

[Visualante]

I've lost a friend to Scientology. He doesn't talk to anybody anymore unless they're Scientologists. It really, really, sucks.

Friend's uncle was outcast from Scientology. When he was with them he barely spoke- now he's been outcast he lives in a hostel on the other side of the country. They haven't heard from him in months. They really screwed him over.

 

[Chumly]

Like I said; non-fundamentalist adherents will cast aside parts of the bible that they deem to be too outlandish. That's why the standard religions don't seem as crazy; because we're no longer interpreting many many parts of it literally; mainstream adherents will pick and choose parts, such that the religion of christians 2000 years hence is an entirely different religion from the christianity of 2000 years prior; as new incontrevertible evidence comes into play and proves bits and pieces of the bible to be complete bullshit, then the interpretations will continually modify.

Moreover, with something like Christianity, there is such a huge and diverse range of interpretations on any particular subject, that people that come into it, are really able to pick and choose as they wish.

Want to believe in genesis, but not leviticus, go ahead. Want to believe in the new testament but not the old, go ahead. Want to believe that the holy spirit that impregnated Mary is simply metaphorical, go ahead.

So basically your someone thats close minded and will distort the bible to make it look as bad as possible. By all means use the internet if you feel like enlightening your ignorance but I doubt thats going to happen.

 

[Zaptruder]

So basically your someone thats close minded and will distort the bible to make it look as bad as possible. By all means use the internet if you feel like enlightening your ignorance but I doubt thats going to happen.

So which parts would you like to enlighten me on? Which parts have I distorted so horrendously?

The focus on and the taking exception to a few rough examples is a distortion of the overall argument I'm making; and does more to highlight your general close minded nature than it does mine.

 

[Chumly]

So which parts would you like to enlighten me on? Which parts have I distorted so horrendously?

The focus on and the taking exception to a few rough examples is a distortion of the overall argument I'm making; and does more to highlight your general close minded nature than it does mine.

Well ignoring the ridiculous things you said in your first post you cant start with this...

Christianity (from the word X&#961;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#972;&#962; "Christ") is a monotheistic religion[1] centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as presented in the New Testament.[2]

Christianity IS the teaching of the new testament not "well Christians choose the new testament to make themselves look better". This isnt something thats been in contention Christianity has ALWAYS been the new testament and the new testament has ALWAYS taken precedent over the old. Your overall argument is wrong in the fact that you think Christians pick and choose between the old and new testament. If your not going to accept this then its obvious its not worth bothering to talk to you.

 

[Zaptruder]

Well ignoring the ridiculous things you said in your first post you cant start with this...




Christianity IS the teaching of the new testament not "well Christians choose the new testament to make themselves look better". This isnt something thats been in contention Christianity has ALWAYS been the new testament and the new testament has ALWAYS taken precedent over the old. Your overall argument is wrong in the fact that you think Christians pick and choose between the old and new testament. If your not going to accept this then its obvious its not worth bothering to talk to you.

While the New Testament overriding the Old Testament is the primary (and 'correct' (as correct as these sorts of things can be)) interpretation of modern Christianity...

You're fooling yourself if you believe that every Christian believes or even understands that point.

You go and ask the people in the church, much less people in the streets that call themselves Christians; how many of them think that the 10 commandments are still fully applicable to Christians (as in they're the 10 primary rules to abide by).

Moreover, how do so many 'Christians' continue to justify their hate and or disdain towards homosexuals, despite them only really been listed in the old testament as sinful.

Romans mentions something about effeminate men... but why pick and choose such that only homosexual men and not actual effeminate men are condemned in that passage? There are plenty of manly homosexual men, just as there are plenty of effeminate straight men; yet, it's commonly adapted to mean homosexual men.


And the answer is because mainstream religious people simply pick and choose the memes of the bible. Very few understand the bible in its totality, and even among those that believe they do, there's a healthy amount of debate on it.

Ultimately, the point remains, that if we were born into a world view that wasn't dominated by abrahamic religion, where the march of history didn't give christianity the chance to create the kind of necessary social and psychology footholds that it has, it would be considered a cult as much as any other cult out there; because no one wanders into a small religion and reads the material and creatively interprets it to the extent that people have with mainstream religions like Christianity and Islam and Judaism. They would be far too keenly aware of the bullshit that they were pulling.