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[birdchili]

what would be a really good business decision for sony would be to release all of their disc games on auto-biodegrading plastic, so they automatically turn into helpful compost in 5 years.

it bugged me when Kind of Blue wouldn't play on the new cd players too, but the cd manufacturers have to make money somehow, right?

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Namely the pipe to the eDRAM on the PS2 was larger than the pipe from RSX to the GDDR3 right?

I've read some about texture switching during redraw so on and so forth, but the memory available to textures in the PS3 is larger than the total memory available in the PS2. There has to be more to it than that, because that would have been likely solved by aggressive caching.

 

[Geneijin]

If true, give me access to JPN PSN gets and I'll be glad.

 

[kairu]

why did they announce this on 09-09-09?!

 

[marwan]

kinda misleading title..."PS2 emulation" i thought it was emulation as in BC with PS2 discs

 

[HUELEN10]

why did they announce this on 09-09-09?!

They didn't, you're thinking of Project Needlemouse.

 

[H_Prestige]

kinda misleading title..."PS2 emulation" i thought it was emulation as in BC with PS2 discs

There's nothing in the report that says you can't.

 

[Undeux]

ouch. someone at sega's having a bad day.

 

[kairu]

They didn't, you're thinking of Project Needlemouse.

that was supposed to say "didn't" haha typos. How you change things.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Hot damn, these things would be too much awesome.

 

[gofreak]

kinda misleading title..."PS2 emulation" i thought it was emulation as in BC with PS2 discs

The doc refers to 'ps2 emulator on ps3 (confidential)'.

I don't know why Sony would proceed to focus on the business opportunity for PSN distribution of PS2 games with a business partner But it does not rule anything out about disc playback.

 

[Raistlin]

Namely the pipe to the eDRAM on the PS2 was larger than the pipe from RSX to the GDDR3 right?

(My uneducated understanding follows):

From what I've read, that appears to be part of the issue. There were also a few weird features, but not being a PS2 dev I don't recall the details. Faf or Pana have talked about some of them before. For example, there's some sort of 1 (or few) cycle flush function that have no equivelent on a standard GPU (can't recall what it was for flushing though).

Regardless, it isn't that the PS3 can't run that games, it's that it can't run them in a generalized way. The PS2 HW was locked before GPU shading was common. To get around it, that's why it had the eDRAM. The idea is that you do multiple passes, and have an insanely fast pipe to move the data around. On a current GPU, you could easily replicate the same effects by using shaders, the problem is that isn't something you can generalize in an emulator. There wasn't a GPU API on the PS2 that devs all used, so an emulator would somehow have to understand the intent of what the code is doing in order to translate it into shader calls, etc.

So for a game that devs think they could actually make some money on, 'porting' it to PSN would make sense. To do it for all games would be ridiculous though.

 

[neojubei]

Put Jet Set Radio on PSN please.

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

For those getting angry for no reason on the prospect of PS2 emulation, I don't really see why. Just as with the PS1 emulation, Sony have to seek out publisher's approval to get the titles onto PSN to download while you can still pop in a disc and play whatever.

It's going to be easier for them with PS2 though because the same ratings boards are still in place and publishers still around, whereas the landscape has changed quite a bit since PS1 days, hence all the difficulty and delays PS1 titles face getting put up for download.

But then on the other side I wouldnt care about PS2 disc emulation unless it came with the bells and whistles that the PCSX2 emulator /an optimised re-released PSN PS2 range could sport (like GOW1+2 package)
I didn't even like FF12 too much but would definitely double dip on it looking like this in a PSN re-release:

 

[StuBurns]

Is that HLE? That certainly isn't happening. They didn't even do it with PS1 where it wouldn't be such a big deal technically.

 

[Snuggles]

I'm not gonna get my hopes up, but if this were to happen and I could play Powerstone on my PS3, I'd be a very happy little boy. I certainly would be open to buying PS2 and DC games on PSN, but I'd probably end up needing a new HDD, my poor 80GB couldn't handle it.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Haven't read the entire thread but someone else could have mentioned it but maybe this is what Kaz will announce in his TGS keynote.

 

[Paracelsus]

Although Virtua Striker 2 with online mode would pretty much kill any interest in me for any other soccer game ever.

 

[ronito]

Hrmm....I'm not so sure how to take this. I've already bought all these PS2 games, I have to buy them again? I could buy a PS2 cheaper than I could even half of them off PSN...Still if they make it worthwhile...

 

[Darkpen]

lol, looks like the threads that people made about the leak on the SEGA forums are all gone :lol

Looks like they removed the Valkyria 2 trailer?

There was a Valkyria 2 trailer? D: Did anyone get it?

 

[Black-Wind]

yeah 'leaked' sure.

This . . .

Sega "accidentally leaks" things like a girl "accidentally" lands on a dick . . . same for MS.

 

[MidnightScott]

A Japanese Import section on PSN would be fucking awesome.

Agreed, I really want to play Yakuza & Yakuza 2, though I'm sure they wouldn't have to put it under an import section since they have already been translated. =O

 

[Fatghost]

Id be pretty sad if I couldn't buy the DC games on my xbox, if true. I kinda figured voot would have started a trend.

I can think of like.. 20-30 dc titles id buy day one on xbla.

Well, there is REZ, Ikaruga, VOOT and Marvel vs Capcom 2...thats like 4 of the best DC games already on XBLA.

 

[Kandrick]

Well, there is REZ, Ikaruga, VOOT and Marvel vs Capcom 2...thats like 4 of the best DC games already on XBLA.

You forgot Soul Calibur.

 

[cRIPticon]

Namely the pipe to the eDRAM on the PS2 was larger than the pipe from RSX to the GDDR3 right?

The memory bus needed to be that fast on the PS2 given the small RAM footprint (4MB, I believe). With the PS3, you would not need to be as fast because there is much more available RAM.

 

[goldenpp72]

Well, there is REZ, Ikaruga, VOOT and Marvel vs Capcom 2...thats like 4 of the best DC games already on XBLA.

I'd like sonic, shenmue, jet grind, chu chu, alien front, cannon spike, bangai-o, etc all on xbla, tons of stuff id buy again just cause I love em.

 

[Big-E]

Why are so many people assuming that this proposed BC will only be for bought PSN titles? Doesn't really suggest this at all other than that they want to sell games on PSN.

 

[Aru]

You forgot Soul Calibur.

Not worth mentioning a port where they cut the best game mode.

 

[RadarScope1]

Think beyond the cartoonishly greedy level of "we can make people rebuy stuff!!!!!" and realize that actual BC remains a potentially appealing way of strengthening their brand and encouraging purchases from people with a big PS2 library?

The fact that PS1 BC works for discs, and that the 360 supports its BC games on both disc and store, makes me hopeful that there will be an announcement of the right kind about this, but all three manufacturers have fucked their customers over enough times this generation that I don't want to assume.

I just don't think that's gonna happen. Look, I'll be right here giving you virtual forum *highfive* if it does happen, but I don't think it will. This isn't like when they took away rumble due to a law suit and put it back when it was settled. They stripped BC to cut costs and are now seeing the PS3 sell better and better as the price gets lower and lower. PSN is taking off. PSP is going digital-only. Digitial distro is the future all publishers are striving for. PS2 games like GoW 1 and 2 are already being repackaged to be re-sold to people who bought them the first time. PS1 games on PSN are moving up in price from $6 to $10 in some cases. These are the facts.

And I'll say it again: the money to be made from potential sales of PS3 hardware to people who have PS2 libraries is miniscule-to-nothing compared to what they can make on digital PS2 games sold to the existing (and growing) user base -- meanwhile they make ZILCH on the used games you will buy to play on your BC PS3.

Microsoft and Nintendo have figured out the same thing. VC games and 360 Games On Demand is where they are heading. It's all over for backward compatiblity folks. Put a date on that gravestone, say your prayers, and quit holding out hope for ship that ain't coming in.

 

[gofreak]

Why are so many people assuming that this proposed BC will only be for bought PSN titles? Doesn't really suggest this at all other than that they want to sell games on PSN.

People like to bitch. It could go one of two ways, emulation or 'ports', and I see know reason to assume one or the other just yet.

I half expect people to start holding a vigil for PSone disc playback. They'll take it out in a future FW update and force you to buy games on PSN!!1

 

[HUELEN10]

People like to bitch. It could go one of two ways, emulation or 'ports', and I see know reason to assume one or the other just yet.

I half expect people to start holding a vigil for PSone disc playback. They'll take it out in a future FW update and force you to buy games on PSN!!1

It may be bitching and moaning, but you never really know...

Don't take it too seriously, Sony would never remove disc-based PS1 BC via update.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

Thanks Darren!

 

[Ashour]

Opportunity for PS3/PSP interoperability (see Eidos Batman, Army of Two, Assassin’s Creed for good examples).

Batman PSP?!

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. what are they talking about?

 

[Pctx]

Typing of the Dead gets a well deserved home on the PSN!!!

 

[TheSeks]

Typing of the Dead gets a well deserved home on the PSN!!!

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog. *BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM HEADSHOT-BLAM!*

 

[Stumpokapow]

I just don't think that's gonna happen. Look, I'll be right here giving you virtual forum *highfive* if it does happen, but I don't think it will. This isn't like when they took away rumble due to a law suit and put it back when it was settled. They stripped BC to cut costs and are now seeing the PS3 sell better and better as the price gets lower and lower. PSN is taking off. PSP is going digital-only. Digitial distro is the future all publishers are striving for. PS2 games like GoW 1 and 2 are already being repackaged to be re-sold to people who bought them the first time. PS1 games on PSN are moving up in price from $6 to $10 in some cases. These are the facts.

And I'll say it again: the money to be made from potential sales of PS3 hardware to people who have PS2 libraries is miniscule-to-nothing compared to what they can make on digital PS2 games sold to the existing (and growing) user base -- meanwhile they make ZILCH on the used games you will buy to play on your BC PS3.

I will bet you one hundred US dollars Paypal that if Sony ever introduces PS2 backwards compatibility for the PS3 -- IE not this God of War Collection port, HD remix stuff, actual downloadable PS2 game backwards compatibility -- it will extend to discs in the drive.

If you don't want to take me up on the bet, please stop announcing "THESE ARE THE FACTS". It should be an easy bet for you because you seem very very confident.

Microsoft and Nintendo have figured out the same thing. VC games and 360 Games On Demand is where they are heading. It's all over for backward compatiblity folks. Put a date on that gravestone, say your prayers, and quit holding out hope for ship that ain't coming in.

Well, except Nintendo has 100% GameCube backwards compatibility and Microsoft has software emulation of any Xbox 1 game they sell on Games on Demand.

 

[StuBurns]

Typing of the Dead gets a well deserved home on the PSN!!!

PS2 versions should have made it out of Japan. I only heard of it from GiantBomb like a week ago, so awesome.

 

[Darkpen]

edit: oh, I thought I was in the playstation store thread :lol

 

[charlequin]

I see you completely missed the point.

No, I picked up on what was important to you about this conversation just fine, thanks.

And I'll say it again: the money to be made from potential sales of PS3 hardware to people who have PS2 libraries is miniscule-to-nothing compared to what they can make on digital PS2 games sold to the existing (and growing) user base

The money to be made on selling old PS2 games online is also miniscule in the broader picture, given the pricepoints ($15, probably) they'd have to come in at. It's not a huge moneymaker -- it's something you do as a low-startup source of revenue, but not one you expect to make much money on. Most people will just buy a $10 copy of FFXII (or whatever) at Gamestop rather than buy it online.

If BC is being worked on, it could only really be justifiable as a way of bringing back an "important" feature at a lower price to Sony (i.e. transforming a per-unit cost for hardware BC into a one-time cost for developing the firmware upgrade.) Doing so would give them the opportunity to also sell stuff online for no added cost, so it would only make sense for them to take the opportunity,

meanwhile they make ZILCH on the used games you will buy to play on your BC PS3.

They, uh, also make zilch on you telling them to shove it up their ass and not rebuying the games you already have, which is why this particular argumentation doesn't really make sense and why even MS didn't actually buy into it with their own online store.

Nobody who owns 50 PS2 games is going to rebuy all, or probably any, of them on PSN. These people are not a serious market for these games, so locking them out of playing their existing discs isn't going to convince them to rebuy, it's just going to be obnoxious. I'd wager Sony is already aware of this because you can play PS1 discs on any PS3, rather than being forced to shell out another $6 to make your copy of FF7 start working on the system.

Microsoft and Nintendo have figured out the same thing.

They have? That's funny, given that Microsoft's BC and online Xbox OGs are linked together and every saleable game is also freely BC for disc copies, and that Wii is the only system currently on the market which both began and has remained 100% BC with its predecessor. (Or, for that matter, how Sony PS1 BC still works for discs.)

 

[DangerousDave]

A Japanese Import section on PSN would be fucking awesome.

Probably Sony noticed the HUGE import campaign of Demon's Souls, and saw that there is a market for japanese games if they translate it in english (even if it's not worthy to launch it as a retail title in US). A lot of people that I know imported the game, and I had to look in a lot of import pages before finding a copy.

 

[obonicus]

PS2 versions should have made it out of Japan. I only heard of it from GiantBomb like a week ago, so awesome.

It also exists for PC, if they never bring it out on new consoles, but I have no idea where you'd buy it these days.

 

[Arpharmd B]

Id be pretty sad if I couldn't buy the DC games on my xbox, if true. I kinda figured voot would have started a trend.

I can think of like.. 20-30 dc titles id buy day one on xbla.

Well from the way it's written one would assume they are planning old DC titles for both services...

Because they say "the longer the exclusive window, the more marketing support Sony provides".

And what is there to be sad of? You already got Rez, Ikaruga, VO:OT, three of the very best DC games ever (all enhanced, too). Not to mention Soul Calibur (dehanced) and Triggerheart (shit).

 

[Dra-Q]

So, Crazy Taxi in HD and Gran Turismo 5 on one console? fuck yeah

 

[Pctx]

PS2 versions should have made it out of Japan. I only heard of it from GiantBomb like a week ago, so awesome.

w00t w00t!

 

[Ashour]

Imagine DC games with trophies.

/faint.

 

[Prezhulio]

The idea is that you do multiple passes, and have an insanely fast pipe to move the data around. On a current GPU, you could easily replicate the same effects by using shaders, the problem is that isn't something you can generalize in an emulator. There wasn't a GPU API on the PS2 that devs all used, so an emulator would somehow have to understand the intent of what the code is doing in order to translate it into shader calls, etc.

shouldn't there be a way to program some recompilation technique to solve this though? i mean in practice at least.

i understand there's a hefty difficulty in doing so, but i just don't see why it's been labeled as impossible by many people for proper emulation of the gs.

 

[Amir0x]

Bring on the PS2 emulation!

I'm gonna need a bigger harddrive :<

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

So has anymore information come out since the time this story leaked? Reading some of your replies its as though PS2 emulation and DC on the PSN are a forgone conclusion.

 

[Dash Kappei]

Holy fucking shit, if some of that pans out this is the best leak ever (no pun intended).

 

[DangerousDave]

As far I know, the Sega PR contacted some pages (at least here, in Spain) and they said about taking out the story "Untill it'll be announced officially".

Probably the great concern of Sega is the filtration of the PS2 BC plans (I suspect that SCEA had today some not very nice words to Sega), so probably Sony will announce this TGS the PS2 BC, even if the initial plan wasn't announce it this week.