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Sega Saturn Appreciation and Emulation Thread
- Thread starter Seik
- Start date
Laevateinn
Member
You'll need a transformer. Japan uses 100 V while google tells me Snakeland uses 240 V.
Some GAFs could write a whole dissertation on the subject of resolution but the problem with 480i (really any interlaced resolution) is that it draws every other line so things with lots of motion will look like shit. Besides, only 3D games from back then look bad. A good 2D game on a proper display (or with a proper upscaler) looks beautiful to this day even at 240p.
Check out this thread if you want to throw all your money away.
With Yakuza 0 this month and Switch next month, I'm in the same boat. I don't know if I'll have time for a single retro game until I get back from Japan mid-April.
foobarry81
Member
A Japanese Saturn runs on 100V.
A North American one runs on 110V.
So your safest option is always to use a voltage converter, and not treat a Japanese retro console as if it were an American one. I got an adjustable converter myself.
Mednafen core in Retroarch is pretty darn awesome, especially if people continue to work on it. At this point, I have yet to run into any noticeable issues playing any rips of my 50+ Saturn games. I don't have as attentive an eye/ear for 100% perfect emulation like some do, so I may not be noticing some audio/video nitpicks, but all I know is the games look amazing on my HDTV and they look, play and sound as they should.
Trailblazer34
Banned
Like this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1000W-GE...383322?hash=item257710db1a:g:btkAAOSw9GhYkelw
Or like this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110-120V...000266?hash=item2ef00ed80a:g:foAAAOSwEzxYbe-v
Or maybe this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/STEP-DOW...594358?hash=item3d15135836:g:H7gAAOSw9VZXOWPR
Which would work?
foobarry81
Member
Let me first say that all of the ones you linked to will probably work. But converters that are meant for American appliances (110V) in stead of Japanese ones (100V) can damage your console in the long run.
This one's for American appliances (110V)
Same as the one above. Not meant for 100V.
This one seems ok.
This one's for American appliances (110V)
Same as the one above. Not meant for 100V.
This one seems ok.
RoryDropkick
Member
I have the Saturn Twin Operator m'self. Use it to play Lunar MPEG and Valtva.
Bar81
Member
It's a 10% variance. I've always used my JP consoles normally and have never had an issue after years of use. In this case, while not a bad idea, it's overkill.
foobarry81
Member
Whether it's overkill or not is for everyone to decide for themselves. I'm just pointing out the facts for someone who's clearly new to the subject. Better to know beforehand than figuring this out after you ended up stuck with a broken console.
10% variance on 100V is 90-110V
10% variance on 110V is 109-121V
Which means there's a 10-points range where you are potentially damaging your console.
D.Lo
Member
TrumpWRONG.jpg
I'm in Australia and I use a White Hong Kong Saturn I grabbed in the 90s. NTSC-J but 240V power, winner. Can also easily be made at home by swapping the internal power supply with a local machine.
foobarry81
Member
Bar81
Member
Fixed for you. Let's not turn a molehill into a mountain. It's not something to worry about.
foobarry81
Member
Only you didn't "fix" anything.
I'm just trying to inform people here, man, by laying out all the facts. If you're not worried about it, more power to you. But let people make up their own minds based on some actual data, rather than a random opinion.
Bar81
Member
Why are you so defensive?
btw, it's not opinion, it's actual experience, which when you get older you will realize is quite important.
foobarry81
Member
I am not defensive. I just don't like alternative facts. Why is it that you are attacking facts, Donald? There is no point in doing so. Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that what I said is factually true? You CAN damage your console, because of overvoltage. So it's better to be aware that you are taking a risk.
One can of course always add their opinion, based on their own experience to the actual facts. Which you did. But then you had to go and present the facts as a non-issue, because one person in the world (= you) had no problems. Just because you didn't experience any problems doesn't mean other people won't have any problems. Potential overvoltage is an issue, and a risk you're taking plugging your old Japanese console into 110V.
That this whole thing is a non-issue, as you presented it, is purely an opinion. Which when you get smarter, you will realize is quite important.
Bar81
Member
Take a deep breath and step away from the computer.
foobarry81
Member
Deflecting like a pro, lol.
Anyway, I'm done with this. If people want to trust your opinion rather than facts and science, then that's their decision.
RoryDropkick
Member
I've had my Japanese Saturn plugged in without a converter since the 90's.. no damage. same with my JP Dreamcast and my AV famicom.
foobarry81
Member
So, what is your point? Are you also going to question now that you took a risk of overvoltage and are still taking one doing that?
Also, in case you missed it, because you didn't fully read up on the whole conversation as people stepping in typically do: the guy asking is an Australian, and they are on 240V. So unlike you and our old friend Bar81, he HAS to use a converter no matter what. So when you are in a situation where you had to use a converter, and you could choose between one that puts out 100V and one that puts out 110V, which one would you choose for your Japanese consoles?
RoryDropkick
Member
Well aware that Australia would need to use a converter, but I'm not sure why you are getting so prickly about the subject otherwise
I just wanted to let you know there was someone else other than Bar who was not running into this issue.foobarry81
Member
Well aware that Australia would need to use a converter, but I'm not sure why you are getting so prickly about the subject otherwise
People like Bar81 are simply misinforming people on here.
I let the Australian guy know about potential risks and then for some reason Bar81 apparently feels the need to step in and present it like it's a non-issue, because "he thinks" it isn't.
It is not a non-issue. There is a real chance that you damage your console with overvoltage. Perfectly fine if you are willing to take that risk, but that doesn't mean other people don't need to know about that stuff.
The point is that you're very clearly wrong claiming it's a non-issue - you can in fact damage your console with incorrect voltage. The fact that it doesn't happen to everyone should not matter, so stop being so rude about correcting your mistake.
Bar81
Member
I guess every one of my JP consoles has miraculously been magically immune to damage for 10+ years.
foobarry81
Member
It is indeed a "miracle" if you ignore science.
Not that you care, but there are a number of variables at play, e.g.:
- the number of "spikes" on your electricity network. On some networks you may get a lot more and longer 110V+ "spikes" than on others. Those could kill a console that can only take 100V with a 10% variance.
- the type of components in your JP consoles. Most consoles have different models, and in some models you may have cheaper/worse components than others.
These 2 variables alone make any claims you make about your consoles pretty much pointless. Sure, your situation didn't damage your consoles. But that doesn't mean that people living elsewhere in different conditions with other models of the same console, or even with the same models of the consoles but with different components, may get the exact same results.
Laevateinn
Member
Anyway...
This discussion has me curious so I'll probably open up my broken Japanese Saturn tonight to get an idea of how the power supply works.
Shadow Hog
Member
I'm gonna side with Bar81 and RoryDropkick here. Been using a white Saturn from Japan on an NTSC-U powerline, and have had absolutely no problems that I've noticed for the past several years.
Now yes, I have no doubt the problems you've spelled out can absolutely happen. I also presently think they're rarer than you're making them out to be, and don't feel 120V to 100V stepdown converters are an absolute necessity, other than having peace of mind that the problem will never occur. Anecdotal, yes, but regardless, it's my stance.
Now yes, I have no doubt the problems you've spelled out can absolutely happen. I also presently think they're rarer than you're making them out to be, and don't feel 120V to 100V stepdown converters are an absolute necessity, other than having peace of mind that the problem will never occur. Anecdotal, yes, but regardless, it's my stance.
foobarry81
Member
Please read my previous posts, I didn't claim anything about how often this stuff causes problems.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever (other than your gut feeling) btw that consoles dying because of this is rare? Because if you don't, then why even bring it up?
I'm not claiming it occurs often (allthough apparently a console like the Neo Geo CD for instance is reportedly particularly prone to it) nor did I claim the opposite.
E.g.:
http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showt...o-CD-Voltage-Stepdown-converter-HELP-please!-)
https://forum.digitpress.com/forum/...nese-game-systems-and-US-power-plugs-question
I'm saying that in order to stay on the safe side, it's best to feed your console the power it was designed for. For Japanese consoles that is 100V (with a 10% variance). The American power grid provides 110V (with a 10% variance). To me this is self-explanatory, but apparently there are "alternative facts" out there.
RoryDropkick
Member
No one is saying you are wrong. Just a little concerned about the hostility you are giving off here.
foobarry81
Member
No one is saying you are wrong. Just a little concerned about the hostility you are giving off here.
There is no hostility. I'm just debunking this notion that you and your friends are spreading here that plugging a Japanese console into the North-American power grid is without any risk. Because I think it is important that people are aware. Worst case scenario your careless comments result in people having their (sometimes expensive) consoles die on them. People should get the full picture. And you lot aren't helping.
Apparently saying as much feels threatening to you?
Shadow Hog
Member
You're repeatedly taking everyone who's saying "I'm okay with running my Japanese console off of a 110V power socket" and then accusing them of spreading "alternative facts" (which there's no way you aren't aware means "lies").
Yeah, absolutely no hostility there.
hikarutilmitt
Member
Okay so this argument is kind of unfortunate because there's some assumed hostility and some of it has become mildly real. Can we all agree on a few things so that there's not a lot of FUD about this?
1) Going from a JP unit to a PAL (so Europe, part of Africa, AUS, etc) 240v system you should definitely use a converter for that voltage type, particularly since the converter itself can have some unknown quality and variance to begin with that becomes very compounded when doing the step change. Using a 110v > 240v converter _might_ work in some cases if you have a higher quality one that handles variance well and has some surge protection built in, even if it's already hooked into a surge protector.
2) Using a JP system at 100v on a NA system at 110v, which usually not an issue in practice, can, technically cause some issues. Most aren't likely to see these issues, however, because of variance in component quality between builds, use of a surge protector (holy mother of god always use one if you're doing this) and the age of the wiring in the building. The acceptable variance really, truly, isn't an issue in most houses built after grounded outlets became common/required for builders, but you bet your ass you should be using a surge protector. A voltage converter, even for the 10v difference, is still not a bad idea for clean power, but the number of watts we're talking about with the system being run (don't forget v*a=w!) is so low that even most older component aren't an issue.
3) always, always, freaking always run it on a surge protector, particularly if you're not using a voltage converter.
So, please, can we all just agree to be adults. Don't sling mud. Don't say "well this is a thing so it can't be true" or even imply it. I've been running a Japanese Saturn on US power for years, as well and not had an issue. This doesn't mean I would tell someone in my family in an older neighborhood in Ohio that I have no idea how their wiring is that they'd be fine.
Let's just all agree on one single thing: we all love the Saturn. It's an amazing machine, still, to this day.
1) Going from a JP unit to a PAL (so Europe, part of Africa, AUS, etc) 240v system you should definitely use a converter for that voltage type, particularly since the converter itself can have some unknown quality and variance to begin with that becomes very compounded when doing the step change. Using a 110v > 240v converter _might_ work in some cases if you have a higher quality one that handles variance well and has some surge protection built in, even if it's already hooked into a surge protector.
2) Using a JP system at 100v on a NA system at 110v, which usually not an issue in practice, can, technically cause some issues. Most aren't likely to see these issues, however, because of variance in component quality between builds, use of a surge protector (holy mother of god always use one if you're doing this) and the age of the wiring in the building. The acceptable variance really, truly, isn't an issue in most houses built after grounded outlets became common/required for builders, but you bet your ass you should be using a surge protector. A voltage converter, even for the 10v difference, is still not a bad idea for clean power, but the number of watts we're talking about with the system being run (don't forget v*a=w!) is so low that even most older component aren't an issue.
3) always, always, freaking always run it on a surge protector, particularly if you're not using a voltage converter.
So, please, can we all just agree to be adults. Don't sling mud. Don't say "well this is a thing so it can't be true" or even imply it. I've been running a Japanese Saturn on US power for years, as well and not had an issue. This doesn't mean I would tell someone in my family in an older neighborhood in Ohio that I have no idea how their wiring is that they'd be fine.
Let's just all agree on one single thing: we all love the Saturn. It's an amazing machine, still, to this day.
Laevateinn
Member
The only issues I have with this post is that you didn't write P=VI, that you recommended a surge protector instead of a UPS, and that you're affiliated with Ohio.
foobarry81
Member
Well, (this may come as a surprise) it IS a lie that there is no risk in running your Japanese console off of a 110V power socket. So, that is not "hostility", that is truth telling.
Again, if you're willing to take that risk, that is up to you. If you have never experienced any problems yourself, all the better.
But when it comes to informing other people (and I can't stress this enough), you're not helping them by stating there isn't a potential problem. It IS a potential problem, and people should be aware of it before they make their own decision on how to deal with the whole thing.
If you really want to help out people, open up your console, check all the components that deal with taking in power from the grid, verify if they can handle 120V, and then post your exact model and serial number etc, so that the community can collect which models from which production lines are safe to run on 110V. Just don't go spreading unfounded assumptions.
hikarutilmitt
Member
For most people, while I would personally recommend a UPS (I use them myself!), it can be a bit overkill. A decent UPS ain't necessarily in everyone's budget.
I'm in Texas, I'm just as filthy, I guess.
p=vi I tried to keep it simpler for most people. And it's been a while since I took my Physics II class in college where we ran the visual tests on a dust buster. And then cooked a Troll doll on a Tesla coil.
Shadow Hog
Member
I mean, I said as much in my first post, right? Though the last sentence of your reply still makes it sound like I'm spreading "alternative facts". Otherwise, it seems like we're just violently agreeing.
RoryDropkick
Member
No one is saying you are wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right by my methods. I just don't like to be accused like I'm some sort of anti-vaxxer. Im not saying that I'm telling people that my method is the correct method. In fact when I worked at a game store (all 3 times in the past 17 years) I made it a point to tell people about the caveats of an import system. Please do not take that hostile tone of "you lot" with me, thank you very much.
foobarry81
Member
Then why do you bring up anecdotal "pseudo-evidence" like you did, in support of Bar81's claims that it is a total non-issue? In an earlier post (this one here) I had already said that 110V would probably work, but that the safer option was to use a 100V stepdown converter. So all you did was "contribute" to this false notion that it isn't a issue. I had already brought in the nuance and you and Bar81's insisted on throwing that over board.
Gaming can be a really expensive hobby, especially when you start importing games and consoles, which most Saturn enthusiasts will likely do because of the vast Japanese library. So I wouldn't want to be in a situation where my console died because I believed some dude on neoGAF who claimed all will be fine. And similarly, I also wouldn't want to be that dude on neoGAF. But apparently that doesn't bother you.
On a side note, "you lot" doesn't necessarily have a negative connotation. Not in British English at least. I think you just want to read stuff that isn't there.
D.Lo
Member
It will vary by console or appliance. You need to test the exact transformer in a console, the way it is made may allow more or less variance on input voltage.
And with these consoles that use very little power, it is extremely likely to be a non-issue. The internal transformer is converting a very high voltage to a very low one. It's pretty much the safest device to handle variance, since it's entire point is to not use that voltage at all. 110/100 is a really low difference for the input of a low power DC transformer.
In the unlikely event a problem did happen, it would in 90% of cases just blow the fuse, and the likely worst case scenario is fry the power board, leaving the rest of the console intact anyway.
The point probably applies to hair dryers, toasters, TVs etc, but for the Saturn, which maxes out at 25W (and probably uses 10W most of the time), I doubt there will be a documented case of a dead console from it.
And with these consoles that use very little power, it is extremely likely to be a non-issue. The internal transformer is converting a very high voltage to a very low one. It's pretty much the safest device to handle variance, since it's entire point is to not use that voltage at all. 110/100 is a really low difference for the input of a low power DC transformer.
In the unlikely event a problem did happen, it would in 90% of cases just blow the fuse, and the likely worst case scenario is fry the power board, leaving the rest of the console intact anyway.
The point probably applies to hair dryers, toasters, TVs etc, but for the Saturn, which maxes out at 25W (and probably uses 10W most of the time), I doubt there will be a documented case of a dead console from it.
foobarry81
Member
^^
All of that applies to the Neo Geo CD as well (not sure how many Watt that is, but it's not going to be 200W or something, right?), and apparently people do experience problems there.
http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showt...o-CD-Voltage-Stepdown-converter-HELP-please!-)
I'm just saying: it's something you need to take into account, when dealing with these appliances.
Edit: 29 Watts apparently (http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1799080)
Edit2: just found this:
http://segasaturngroup.proboards.com/thread/2368
All of that applies to the Neo Geo CD as well (not sure how many Watt that is, but it's not going to be 200W or something, right?), and apparently people do experience problems there.
http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showt...o-CD-Voltage-Stepdown-converter-HELP-please!-)
I'm just saying: it's something you need to take into account, when dealing with these appliances.
Edit: 29 Watts apparently (http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1799080)
Edit2: just found this:
http://segasaturngroup.proboards.com/thread/2368
Agreed. Can we change the subject now guys?
RoryDropkick
Member
Yup, I'm done. D.Lo is right.
Laevateinn
Member
Hey guys, I just finished looking inside my broken Japanese Saturn and here's what I found with respect to the power supply. N.b. while I'm technically an electrical engineer, I work as a programmer and haven't done any real hardware work since my senior project outside of breaking retro game consoles.
Anyway, a general description of the circuit can be described as follows:
Vin->transformer->fuse->voltage regulator->power delivery circuitry.
The voltage regulator is labeled as a C5215. I couldn't find any documentation on that specific chip but 5215 seems to be common as a surface mount chip nowadays. Looking at digikey, the 5V version operates well up to 13.2V input. Assuming Sega used a 100:9 transformer, a 120Vac input would output a 10.8Vac which is well below the rated voltage of the regulator. Regardless, there is also a fuse in the way so I doubt there's really much risk of damaging the regulator or any of the circuitry beyond it. If you're going to break anything it will be the fuse and that's incredibly simple to fix.
That said, there's probably a lot of systems out there that weren't designed to that tolerance, especially systems with more limited runs that weren't intended for use outside of Japan. I'm guessing Sega designed the Saturn's power supply so that it would work in both Japan and the US. Why waste engineering resources on multiple power supplies if you don't have to?
I still don't know why my Saturn doesn't work though which is a bummer. I get absolutely no life out of it. I can tell you that it isn't because I plugged it into the wall in America though. I got no response the moment I plugged it in from Japan. If it was an issue with US power, there would have been a light flash or something before it died. Also, my fuse is perfectly intact and none of the circuitry in the power supply shows any visible signs of damage. I guess without hooking it up to a DMM I won't know for sure if there's any power but it's past midnight so that'll have to wait until another day.
Anyway, a general description of the circuit can be described as follows:
Vin->transformer->fuse->voltage regulator->power delivery circuitry.
The voltage regulator is labeled as a C5215. I couldn't find any documentation on that specific chip but 5215 seems to be common as a surface mount chip nowadays. Looking at digikey, the 5V version operates well up to 13.2V input. Assuming Sega used a 100:9 transformer, a 120Vac input would output a 10.8Vac which is well below the rated voltage of the regulator. Regardless, there is also a fuse in the way so I doubt there's really much risk of damaging the regulator or any of the circuitry beyond it. If you're going to break anything it will be the fuse and that's incredibly simple to fix.
That said, there's probably a lot of systems out there that weren't designed to that tolerance, especially systems with more limited runs that weren't intended for use outside of Japan. I'm guessing Sega designed the Saturn's power supply so that it would work in both Japan and the US. Why waste engineering resources on multiple power supplies if you don't have to?
I still don't know why my Saturn doesn't work though which is a bummer. I get absolutely no life out of it. I can tell you that it isn't because I plugged it into the wall in America though. I got no response the moment I plugged it in from Japan. If it was an issue with US power, there would have been a light flash or something before it died. Also, my fuse is perfectly intact and none of the circuitry in the power supply shows any visible signs of damage. I guess without hooking it up to a DMM I won't know for sure if there's any power but it's past midnight so that'll have to wait until another day.
7DollarHagane
Banned
Let's say you own
Guardian heroes
Albert Odyssey
Shining Force 3
Die hard arcade
Panzer dragoon 1&2
Astal
Powerslave
Duke nukem
Quake
What game would you buy next other than PDS?
Guardian heroes
Albert Odyssey
Shining Force 3
Die hard arcade
Panzer dragoon 1&2
Astal
Powerslave
Duke nukem
Quake
What game would you buy next other than PDS?
Burning Rangers?
Dragon Force.