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Shaming Rapists in private Facebook groups

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Machina

Banned
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-...ape-take-justice-into-their-own-hands/8767106

When Lauren Ingram posted the first of her tweets exposing the identity of her alleged rapist, it felt like "a little act of power and resistance" after two years of feeling like she was getting nowhere.

"I've talked about this before but not in detail," the 27-year-old Sydney journalist wrote in that first post. "So here is it: in April 2015 I was raped by a man who is a Greens member."

The man had been a friend of Ingram's. On the night in question, he invited her to his house, where what began as consensual sex turned into what she described as a violent assault.

Ingram named him, tagging his username, in a later tweet.

While many applauded her bravery, not everyone agreed social media was the place to name and shame a man over allegations that had not been tested in court.

But Ingram was fed up with the official channels. For two years she had complained to the police and the NSW Greens, where her alleged rapist was employed — and felt she had been thwarted at every turn.

Police had lost interest in her case, she believed, and told her that her hospital records had been permanently destroyed, which would have made her case much weaker if it went to court.

But Background Briefing has discovered these files still exist — a revelation that Ingram said reinforced her decision to go public with her alleged attacker's identity.


Taking matters into their own hands

Ingram is part of a bigger movement of young women who are willing to take the law into their own hands in sexual assault cases.

Despite police warnings that public shaming could backfire, women across Australia are joining private Facebook groups that share stories about which men to avoid.

"I'm a part of the secret underground feminist mafia that tells all of my friends, and even just women I meet ... about who the bad guys are, who the rapists are," said Anna, a member of one group like this.

"The system isn't set up to help me. It's set up to help him. This is our own system."
Anna said she could think of five men she regularly told her friends to avoid. Even within the last month, she said, she'd cut a man out of her social circle after hearing about his ugly history.

It's this kind of warning that Sydney writer Erin Riley wishes she'd given Ingram.

A month before Ingram's alleged rape, Riley said she had a similar experience with the same mutual acquaintance: she describes initially consenting, before the sex turned violent and intimidating.

Riley didn't go to hospital after it happened. She didn't go to police straight away. For weeks afterwards, she went back and forth between denial and feeling deeply violated.

Now, she wishes she'd said something. "I felt so guilty. I felt like if I had recognised it and if I'd said something earlier, if I'd warned her..." Riley said. "I didn't."

Police warn of dangers of speaking out

Some described Ingram's move to go public as vigilantism. She doesn't totally disagree.

"It's almost like taking back the power, taking back whatever you can, to put against the system that isn't working," she said. "It's like a little act of power and resistance."

This reasoning troubles Detective Superintendent Linda Howlett, who heads the New South Wales sex crimes squad. At the end of the day, she said, it would not help get an offender arrested or charged.

"It could have had the potential to compromise the evidence that could be obtained," she said.
"The other thing we certainly don't want is for that social media comment to be out before a judge and jury, because it could place doubt on the actual circumstance the investigation or anything the victim might say."

And then there's the risk that the accused rapist could sue the rape victim for what they've said online.

"The victim could be leaving themselves open to civil prosecution by the offender who's actually committed the offence against them," Superintendent Howlett said.

"Until a person is actually convicted, they're innocent in the eyes of the law of that particular offence."

The night of Lauren's alleged rape

Over the course of her tweets, and in her interview with Background Briefing, Ingram laid out her account of what the man, who she had once considered a friend, did to her.

Bruises are visible on a young woman's shoulders and neck.

The night began with him texting her, asking if she wanted to hang out at his house and eat pizza. When she arrived at his place, there was no pizza, but he'd bought some gin. Conversation led to kissing and then consensual sex.

But Ingram said it wasn't long before he started getting rough. When she felt him biting her, she told him it hurt and asked him to stop.

"I think I said stop four or five times, and he grabbed my arm and was holding me down onto the bed and just kept going," she said.

Then, she said, he hit her, and held her down on the bed when she tried to get up.

"I was terrified ... fear and pain were the only things in my head. I'd never experienced anything like that before in terms of real fear," she said.

I'm sorry guys and girls, women who have been sexually assaulted absolutely deserve justice, and shame on a system that allows that to not occur, especially when the accused may or may not have strong political connections, but this idea that women (and men) can gather in a private social media group and publicly name and shame a person is a terrible idea.

Making such a thing commonplace invites those with vendettas to publicly shame the person they dislike, probably without this person ever finding out, and all of a sudden this sorry sod has a heap of people online sullying their name with horrendous accusations regardless of their true guilt.
 
Not something that should be done lightly and of course very open to abuse. But damn:

Police had lost interest in her case, she believed, and told her that her hospital records had been permanently destroyed, which would have made her case much weaker if it went to court.

But Background Briefing has discovered these files still exist — a revelation that Ingram said reinforced her decision to go public with her alleged attacker's identity.
I can totally understand her being totally done with going through the regular channels.
 
Ugh.
She is obviously right in this case, but a part of me fears the slippery slope, which is sometimes a fallacy, and sometimes very real.
I agree with the two posters before me.
Ugly situation.
 
Ah yes, first we create a system where the vast, vast majority of rapists get away scot-free or are never even charged and then we chastise victims for even talking about their experience privately.
 
As long as the chat is private, I don't see it as that big of a deal. It's still just hearsay and allegations, no different than telling your story to a newspaper. Of course, it would be wise to only do this after exhausting all legal recourse.

It was a similar shaming campaign that finally got people to wake up about Cosby after all. If you're a dude and you have half a dozen exes telling the same story about you drugging or battering or raping, eventually enough people sharing might actually help the next girl.
 

Zaru

Member
There's a reason civilized societies abandoned mob justice.
Sure it feels good for the people doing it and often you want to "get" someone who escapes the law like the piece of shit they are, but are the backfires worth the "justice"?

I'm not comparing this to a lynch mob mind you, but this isn't gonna stay isolated to a chat group.
 

Zips

Member
Inevitably will devolve into people just using it as a space to shit talk people they don't like, and spread unconfirmed (and possibly unmade) accusations against them.

What use is it when you can't be sure if it's a real 'warning' or not?

Otherwise, public shaming is a route that is dangerous for all involved.
 
That will backfire soon enough. I understand her reasoning, but it is still wrong.

What's wrong is that the situation got so bad that this was the inevitable outcome. It may be a bad outcome, but the goal should be to make it so it doesn't need to happen.

Inevitably will devolve into people just using it as a space to shit talk people they don't like, and spread unconfirmed (and possibly unmade) accusations against them.

What use is it when you can't be sure if it's a real 'warning' or not?

Otherwise, public shaming is a route that is dangerous for all involved.

Then fix it so that there is a safe, official channel to go through, since there clearly doesn't exist one as is.

There's a reason civilized societies abandoned mob justice.
Sure it feels good for the people doing it and often you want to "get" someone who escapes the law like the piece of shit they are, but are the backfires worth the "justice"?

I'm not comparing this to a lynch mob mind you, but this isn't gonna stay isolated to a chat group.

The reason civilized societies "abandon" mob justice is often because the justice system begins to do its job.
 
For those saying it's a terrible idea, what exactly is their recourse here? Had information been shared before, Ingram might have been spared (as per Erin Riley's experience). Had the police or system worked and not actively worked against her ("Police had lost interest in her case, she believed, and told her that her hospital records had been permanently destroyed, which would have made her case much weaker if it went to court.

But Background Briefing has discovered these files still exist — a revelation that Ingram said reinforced her decision to go public with her alleged attacker's identity."), Ingram might also have had proper legal recourse. What do you expect them to do, want them to do? Just sit and accept it?
 

Glass Rebel

Member
Ah yes, first we create a system where the vast, vast majority of rapists get away scot-free or are never even charged and then we chastise victims for even talking about their experience privately.

Pretty much. This is the product of a system designed to protect rapists. If people are against this, they should work on prosecuting rapists.
 

shingi70

Banned
It might backfire which sucks, but if someone did indeed rape someone or post something racist/sexist/homophobic on social media out them.

I hate it when I see hardcore Facebook racist and sexist shit and the names of the offenders are blacked out.
 
Ah yes, first we create a system where the vast, vast majority of rapists get away scot-free or are never even charged and then we chastise victims for even talking about their experience privately.
Yep.

Dudes have more sympathy for other dudes being accused of rape than rape victims.
 

Nevasleep

Member
I'm not keen on it, calling people rapists who haven't been convicted, better to just warn people without going into specifics.
I don't plan on ever ending up in that situation, but I'd consider taking legal action if somebody called me a rapist on social media.
 

hey_it's_that_dog

benevolent sexism
I'm not keen on it, calling people rapists who haven't been convicted, better to just warn people without going into specifics.
I don't plan on ever ending up in that situation, but I'd consider taking legal action if somebody called me a rapist on social media.
How do you warn somebody about a specific rapist without divulging their identity?
 
I mean, it's fine to detail your experiences on social media. You see this all the time in relation to other issues, don't see why they can't talk about their sexual assault as well.
 
Understand how it worked here but the danger is real with people possibly throwing false accusations and the mob mentality that could be dangerous for both the accused and the accuser.
 

Nevasleep

Member
How do you warn somebody about a specific rapist without divulging their identity?
Divulge the identity, but as weak as it sounds, suggest they are a bad person, bad relationship, controlling etc.
It's a horrible situation, if a loved one wanted to do it I'd support them, but there are consequences for calling people criminals who haven't been convicted.
 

entremet

Member
Private FB groups are not that private. It is easy to set up a fake account and be admitted to it I’m sure.

That’s my real beef with this.
 
Having had to help a female friend deal with a rape case where the law was no longer helpful, I'm okay with this.

This is what happens when the system doesn't want to work for women guys.

You want this to stop change the system. Or just keep punishing women that works too
 

Makki

Member
Internet mob mentality shouldnt be encouraged. If the medical records are there to prove she came in with signs of abuse she should go through legal means and take his ass to court
 
Letting other women know about rapists is vital to stopping them. Rapists are almost always serial rapists.

While some of them only tried once, most of the rapists were repeat offenders, with each committing an average of 5.8 rapes apiece. The 6 percent of men who were rapists were generally violent men, as well. "The 120 rapists were responsible for 1,225 separate acts of interpersonal violence, including rape, battery, and child
http://www.davidlisak.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RepeatRapeinUndetectedRapists.pdf

Fuck that guy. Fuck the police. This isnt mob justice its information to protect women when the law consistently fails them.
 
In a country where actual video proof of cops murdering innocent people doesn't lead to convictions, I completely understand a woman feeling the need to find justice when the system refuses to help her.

Once again, GAF's first priority above all else is preventing false allegations. Funny that.
 
Internet mob mentality shouldnt be encouraged. If the medical records are there to prove she came in with signs of abuse she should go through legal means and take his ass to court

The police had no interest in helping her further pursue it and even actively lied about said medical records to dissuade her further. What legal means do you think are open to her now that weren't previously and weren't taken seriously?
 

Zips

Member
What's wrong is that the situation got so bad that this was the inevitable outcome. It may be a bad outcome, but the goal should be to make it so it doesn't need to happen.



Then fix it so that there is a safe, official channel to go through, since there clearly doesn't exist one as is.



The reason civilized societies "abandon" mob justice is often because the justice system begins to do its job.

I never said the legal system is perfect the way it is. Considering the innocent people that would get hurt by these internet call outs, that is not a good stand-in either.

More than one thing can be bad.
 
I never said the legal system is perfect the way it is. Considering the innocent people that would get hurt by these internet call outs, that is not a good stand-in either.

More than one thing can be bad.

And caring more about the potential innocent people that could get hurt which is far less than the number of actual real people already getting hurt is a little silly.
 

FUME5

Member
Shame away.

Snarky❤;245276911 said:
In a country where actual video proof of cops murdering innocent people doesn't lead to convictions, I completely understand a woman feeling the need to find justice when the system refuses to help her.

Once again, GAF's first priority above all else is preventing false allegations. Funny that.

This is in Australia.
 
Internet mob mentality shouldnt be encouraged. If the medical records are there to prove she came in with signs of abuse she should go through legal means and take his ass to court

The courts are lenient on rapists and are fail 97% of rapes from every having justice served for them.
BJS data that show the percentage of convicted rapists and the percentage that were incarcerated, and a report by RAINN that in 3 out of 100 rapes, the perpetrator “will spend even a single day in prison.”
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st229?pg=11Table A-4

If you knew that having to relive a terrible event in your life multiple times over the course of months. Have your friends and family slut shame you and think you deserved it. Only to have a 3% of that person you probably see in your every day life serve time.
 
For those saying it's a terrible idea, what exactly is their recourse here? Had information been shared before, Ingram might have been spared (as per Erin Riley's experience). Had the police or system worked and not actively worked against her ("Police had lost interest in her case, she believed, and told her that her hospital records had been permanently destroyed, which would have made her case much weaker if it went to court.

But Background Briefing has discovered these files still exist — a revelation that Ingram said reinforced her decision to go public with her alleged attacker's identity."), Ingram might also have had proper legal recourse. What do you expect them to do, want them to do? Just sit and accept it?
It's a horrible situation. This kind of thing only arose because of the failure of society to protect women like these. It's not an ideal solution but the real problem is the need for any personal solution to begin with.
Yeah no this is why we have courts. Shouldn't be surprised to get sued over shit like this.
And when the justice system fails you then you get stuff like this happening.
 
Snarky❤;245277361 said:
Did you guys miss the part of the article where she tried for two years to go through legal means and the law literally lied to her and said her medical records were destroyed when they weren't?

No, didn't miss it.

The courts don't always work but that doesn't mean this is okay.

And this is her case we are talking about, when you start a FB Group posting about people not convicted in court this is going to have outcomes that no one wants.

Mob justice is not the way.
 
No, didn't miss it.

The courts don't always work but that doesn't mean this is okay.

And this is her case we are talking about, when you start a FB Group posting about people not convicted in court this is going to have outcomes that no one wants.

Mob justice is not the way.

So what is the way ? Going through legal means didn't work
 
Innocence until proven guilty exists for a reason. I can't really judge her for taking this course of action because the system does suck, but I can never condone it.
 

gaiages

Banned
Would have been nice if the system didn't work against her so it didn't come to this.

I can't believe the hospital said they destroyed her records, like wtf?

Divulge the identity, but as weak as it sounds, suggest they are a bad person, bad relationship, controlling etc.
It's a horrible situation, if a loved one wanted to do it I'd support them, but there are consequences for calling people criminals who haven't been convicted.

Sorry but if someone sexually assaulted another person, they deserve to be outed for the full truth.

Why put on the kiddie gloves for fucked up shit like that?

Internet mob mentality shouldnt be encouraged. If the medical records are there to prove she came in with signs of abuse she should go through legal means and take his ass to court

The justice system stopped caring. If police weren't helping and the hospital told her originally that the records were destroyed for whatever the fuck reason, don't you think this would have been hard to try in court? It's hard enough to try sexual assault cases when you have all the evidence readily available to you and the justice system is working with you... that's not even the case here.
 
Victims sharing their experiences because the legal system is designed to fail them to protect one another is not "mob justice."

Many posters on GAF seem to prefer that victims just stay silent and shut up even when the legal channels (as they often do) fail them. It's really troubling.
 
Sorry but if someone sexually assaulted another person, they deserve to be outed for the full truth.

Why put on the kiddie gloves for fucked up shit like that?
There is no such thing as "full truth" when it comes to the legal system. It's really not that simple, even outside of badly run cases.
 
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