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[Reishiki]

That's a pretty rad shirt.

Can I have one with both cheese and beefcake on it for when I make some sort of amazing scientific discovery?

 

[Brakke]

it's a weird thing that we're assuming the worst of somebody based on superficial wares. if a guy like robin williams walked in there with that shirt, would the reactions be similar?

i need to vape weeds now.

That's not even what the Verge piece did though. The headline is "your shirt is sexist and ostracizing" not "you hate women". I didn't see the article before the edit but right now it's mostly about that ostracizing effect and the importance of an inclusive culture. The targeted criticism is directed at the ESA broadly:

Still, Taylor's personal apology doesn't make up for the fact that no one at ESA saw fit to stop him from representing the Space community with clothing that demeans 50 percent of the world's population. No one asked him to take it off, because presumably they didn't think about it. It wasn't worth worrying about.

not even the dude specifically.

yeah, context is that his female friend gave it to him and he is a geek and is wearing it.

Not that he is trying to objectify women.

Which nobody knew until he was criticized for it. And nobody would have known if he hadn't been criticized for it. It wasn't part of the context until the criticism drew it out.

 

[Kinyou]

Man, people in this thread are fucking mad that a guy learned a lesson.

He apologized and realized it was wrong and people are weirdly pissed about it. The guy is a shining example of how people should be. We should all be that willing to be open to real criticism.

The problem is that the apology was bullied out of him

 

[Kano on the Phone]

i think he's sorry he had to be sorry, but we'll probably never know

So we just jump to him being an insincere liar instead of a dude who maybe made a mistake?

You're not doing him any service by painting his intentions and words as what you wish he'd said instead of what he said.

The problem is that the apology was bullied out of him

So he isn't at all sincerely sorry that he maybe offended some people? This is pure cowardice on his part?

 

[Maximus.]

People need reason to complain. Shirt is tacky but no need to take offense to it.

 

[railGUN]

I can cut him some slack, since he helped land a chunk of metal on a comet that's like a trillion space miles from us.

I was really disappointed when I saw this on CBC NewsWorld. This shouldn't be national news. Twitter had a PM function too, but #whatever.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Man, people in this thread are fucking mad that a guy learned a lesson.

He apologized and realized it was wrong and people are weirdly pissed about it. The guy is a shining example of how people should be. We should all be that willing to be open to real criticism.

This. Dude actually acknowledged that his shirt was offensive, did the right thing and apologized, and people are upset that he did this?

And a big fucking LOL to the people who say "HE WAS A PART OF A HUGE AWESOME THING" as if that excuses him from criticism.

 

[Tesseract]

So we just jump to him being an insincere liar instead of a dude who maybe made a mistake?

You're not doing him any service by painting his intentions and words as what you wish he'd said instead of what he said.

true

 

[DarkFlow]

Man, people in this thread are fucking mad that a guy learned a lesson.

He apologized and realized it was wrong and people are weirdly pissed about it. The guy is a shining example of how people should be. We should all be that willing to be open to real criticism.



Things have unintended consequences. We don't exist in a vacuum.

I'm offended by your use of a person who murders people for sport. Please apologize to me.

That's about the level of wrongness he's at.

 

[Rentahamster]

By professional standards, it was an inappropriate shirt to wear - professional standards, that are based on old fashioned notions, influenced by our Puritin origins. A bland design, that while strips away most types of individual personality and molds everyone into a common aesthetic, does foster a safer, benign, work environment due in part to its intentional genericness.

The issue gets even murkier, given that the shirt was designed by a woman and given to him as a gift. A woman who is a little annoyed now how everyone is calling her shirt offensive. It's so easy on the internet just to condemn a person and his or her achievements by one quick superficial judgement and snarky comments.

"I don't like your shirt with sexy ladies on it" sounds like something a religiously uptight prude would say. I'd rather not go further down the guilt by association route, but the Venn diagram of things that various different groups of people commonly say is getting really weird.

 

[Korten]

Kind of feel like this is what should have happened:

"Hey, that shirt isn't really appropriate, do you mind changing it?"

"Ok."

Boom, done. Crisis avoided.

 

[Tesseract]

i guess my next question would be : who's in charge of pressing the button that declares something demeaning to 50% of the world's population?

 

[Kano on the Phone]

I'm offended by your use of a person who murders people for sport. Please apologize to me.

That's about the level of wrongness he's at.

Unless there's a severe deficit of one kind of person on Gaf because they have never been encouraged to post here because they weren't inclined enough or weren't smart enough to post at a place where people with Mortal Kombat usernames posted, you're being insincere and intentionally dull about what the conversation is here.

 

[Brakke]

And a big fucking LOL to the people who say "HE WAS A PART OF A HUGE AWESOME THING" as if that excuses him from criticism.

No kidding.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

i guess my next question would be : who's in charge of pressing the button that declares something demeaning to 50% of the world's population?

Probably not the opposite 50%

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

This. Dude actually acknowledged that his shirt was offensive, did the right thing and apologized, and people are upset that he did this?

And a big fucking LOL to the people who say "HE WAS A PART OF A HUGE AWESOME THING" as if that excuses him from criticism.

Was the shirt offensive or was it inappropriate given the circumstances? Like a "frankie says relax t-shirt" isn't offensive itself but what if you wore it to someone's funeral?

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the shirt by itself.

 

[Red]

Man, people in this thread are fucking mad that a guy learned a lesson.

He apologized and realized it was wrong and people are weirdly pissed about it. The guy is a shining example of how people should be. We should all be that willing to be open to real criticism.



Things have unintended consequences. We don't exist in a vacuum.

Shouldn't be surprising at this point. People don't get it. That's why the problem is so hard to solve.

 

[Kinyou]

So he isn't at all sincerely sorry that he maybe offended some people? This is pure cowardice on his part?

What I'm saying is that he might have felt coerced to do it. An apology that was gained through harassment is kind of tainted, don't you think?

 

[DarkFlow]

Unless there's a severe deficit of one kind of person on Gaf because they have never been encouraged to post here because they weren't inclined enough or weren't smart enough to post at a place where people with Mortal Kombat usernames posted, you're being insincere and intentionally dull about what the conversation is here.

Maybe there are, but I have no idea of measuring that since they are not here.

He didn't do anything "wrong" he just had the misfortune of having bad taste on a public stage, and that's nothing you should be forced to apologize for.

 

[Zoned]

I seriously can't believe that people ain't got time to talk about his achievement but instead interested in shitting on his fucking shirt.

And that Verge has become a joke these days. Contacting ESA for apology? Really? WTF is wrong with you.

Just did a Google search "Matt Taylor", and the first news articles that I get is about this shirt. Seems like the world is more interested in hatred than commending.

 

[stufte]

Probably not the opposite 50%

I don't care if you landed a spacecraft on a comet, your shirt is sexist and ostracizing

By Chris Plante

Oh.

 

[Ayt]

Maybe there are, but I have no idea of measuring that since they are not here.

He didn't do anything "wrong" he just had the misfortune of having bad taste on a public stage, and that's nothing you should be forced to apologize for.

How was he "forced" to apologize?

 

[KHarvey16]

Maybe there are, but I have no idea of measuring that since they are not here.

He didn't do anything "wrong" he just had the misfortune of having bad taste on a public stage, and that's nothing you should be forced to apologize for.

His "bad taste" is not the issue. The shirt, and the fact wearing it didn't seem like a problem, are indicators of a larger problem in society regarding gender.

 

[BocoDragon]

My angle on why I'd "defend" him is that I find the Internet outrage machine a little scary. We shouldn't have to do everything it says.... It can be crazy and wrong, being that it's a vortex of disparate and often irrational voices. You'd think gamergate and the people offended by this shirt are dissimilar as they fall on opposite sites of feminism/social justice, but they are two sides of the same Twitter/clickbait-fuelled coin. An e-mob.

That said I wouldn't wear the shirt either.

I don't think it's actually connected with the issue of females in tech .... It's not really a symptom of an exclusionary culture, just one man's silly fashion sense. Though I think it's good that it's been the catalyst for that type of discussion.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Oh.

yeah, so? did I say I agree with the article?

 

[Lowmelody]

I'm completely disgusted by how this person was treated over a shirt.

 

[DarkFlow]

How was he "forced" to apologize?

Try reading the thread.

His "bad taste" is not the issue. The shirt, and the fact wearing it didn't seem like a problem, are indicators of a larger problem in society regarding gender.

IT'S A SHIRT. It's not a statement.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Maybe there are, but I have no idea of measuring that since they are not here.

He didn't do anything "wrong" he just had the misfortune of having bad taste on a public stage, and that's nothing you should be forced to apologize for.

I can't imagine why you're trying to get in on the conversation when you have no real interest in being sincere or even lucid.

What I'm saying is that he might have felt coerced to do it. An apology that was gained through harassment is kind of tainted, don't you think?

Maybe he felt that wearing the shirt actually did a tiny bit of harm. I don't know why the people who seem to want to defend the guy want to also make him into an insincere coward.

 

[Confidence Man]

This. Dude actually acknowledged that his shirt was offensive, did the right thing and apologized, and people are upset that he did this?

And a big fucking LOL to the people who say "HE WAS A PART OF A HUGE AWESOME THING" as if that excuses him from criticism.

People are upset he felt the need to apologize. No different then the people patting him on the back for "learning his lesson".

 

[TOP SHOTTA]

You're outright dismissing because you assume there is more to it than the man just wanting to write about this.

Oh. Is that what you're saying I'm doing?
Oh yeah?????

Actually yeah that is what I mean. It feels phony to me. It feels like him satisfying an editorial directive. I think they co-credited that story with a female writer to help lessen the blow on that. Does that make me an even worse person? Because with just the female writer as the credit makes it sound like, reverse sexist or man-bashing. If they're going to get snotty about it, why couldn't they just comment that "Bro's" wore that shirt as a pair of boardshorts to go wakeboarding on Lake Havasou in the late 00's before moving away from it because they were too cheezy - even for them. Because even then I saw it prints like that as tacky & cheezy, not sexist or ostracizing.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Unless there's a severe deficit of one kind of person on Gaf because they have never been encouraged to post here because they weren't inclined enough or weren't smart enough to post at a place where people with Mortal Kombat usernames posted, you're being insincere and intentionally dull about what the conversation is here.

I do not think it would be totally weird that some women might feel unsafe with images that are associated with brutalizing women in insanely violent ways.

 

[Kinyou]

Maybe he felt that wearing the shirt actually did a tiny bit of harm. I don't know why the people who seem to want to defend the guy want to also make him into an insincere coward.

Ah ,yes, being coerced makes you a coward. Way to put words into my mouth. At least we know how you view it

 

[Ayt]

Try reading the thread.

I've read it. How was he "forced" to apologize. What makes you think he didn't conclude he should apologize by his own volition?

 

[zoozilla]

Kind of feel like this is what should have happened:

"Hey, that shirt isn't really appropriate, do you mind changing it?"

"Ok."

Boom, done. Crisis avoided.

Yup.

At least one co-worker should have voiced some concern about his choice of clothing - maybe that points to the whole "boy's club" thing. But the online response is a little crazy.

Unfortunately, subtlety and mildness are not in Twitter's vocabulary.

I really, truly believe that Twitter has done more harm to society than good. Not to say that it's the worst thing in the world, but its impact is definitely a net negative.

 

[DarkFlow]

I can't imagine why you're trying to get in on the conversation when you have no real interest in being sincere or even lucid.



Maybe he felt that wearing the shirt actually did a tiny bit of harm. I don't know why the people who seem to want to defend the guy want to also make him into an insincere coward.

So, I see we've entered the insult the other person stage of the thread.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I do not think it would be totally weird that some women might feel unsafe with images that are associated with brutalizing women in insanely violent ways.

I agree 100%. Who has an avatar like that?

 

[KHarvey16]

Ah ,yes, being coerced makes you a coward. Way to put words into my mouth

What evidence do you have the apology wasn't sincere beyond the personal belief it wasn't necessary?

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Ah ,yes, being coerced makes you a coward. Way to put words into my mouth. At least we know how you view it

I've said nothing other than I believe the guy was sincere and meant what he said.

 

[CrunchyB]

I was typing up a big response but thought the better of it.

I'm completely disgusted by how this person was treated over a shirt.

This, basically.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

It's a fucking tacky ass shirt.

this. it's worse than those Hawaii flower shirts.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

I agree 100%. Who has an avatar like that?

I know you tease but just like this dude's tshirt it is harmless and doesn't represent his character or world view.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

My goodness people are offended by anything. Not everything has to turn into a fight. It's a freaking shirt with women on it.

 

[Kinyou]

What evidence do you have the apology wasn't sincere beyond the personal belief it wasn't necessary?

What I was saying in my post is that it's possible that he felt like he had to do it. Again, an apology that is gained through harassment feels tainted. Do you disagree with that?

I've said nothing other than I believe the guy was sincere and meant what he said.

You've said very clearly that being coerced into an apology would make someone a coward.

 

[Tesseract]

I can't imagine why you're trying to get in on the conversation when you have no real interest in being sincere or even lucid.



Maybe he felt that wearing the shirt actually did a tiny bit of harm. I don't know why the people who seem to want to defend the guy want to also make him into an insincere coward.

insincere cowardice ain't the the only angle of defense, especially in apology

anyway, this is becoming a nebulous tightrope of back and forths, i got hadokens to fire

 

[Friend]

Remember people, when big brother bullies you and breaks you down to tearfully repent, that means that big brother was right all along!

 

[Slayven]

Sucks that this will what people googling his name will first see, but not 20 years of hard work. But can't really empathize or sympathize with him, he knew he was going to interviewed. Like going to an interview with flipflops and jncos on.

 

[Ville Pukema]

I'm completely disgusted by how this person was treated over a shirt.

I'm so with you, he was being himself and got treated like shit for it. Can't understand how anyone can defend behavior of the so called offended people who started to fling shit because of shirt and just because of how the shirt looked.

I'm offended, I need apology from those who got offended about the shirt.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

You've said very clearly that being coerced into an apology would make you a coward.

Yes. And I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is sincere and isn't just apologizing because he felt coerced.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I know you tease but just like this dude's tshirt it is harmless and doesn't represent his character or world view.

I'm not really teasing--if someone's avatar was a dude brutalizing a woman, of course I'd support having him change it.

Similarly, if the dude's shirt was offensive to women (which it was), he shouldn't have worn it. I'm glad he apologized, and women appreciated it, too.

 

[Yrael]

i guess my next question would be : who's in charge of pressing the button that declares something demeaning to 50% of the world's population?

Well, this is a rather loaded question! However, what we do need to do is listen to the experiences of women working in scientific fields. I linked to one page about sexual harassment of women in astronomy earlier, which was part of a series - it's well worth reading:

Some people may see Taylor’s dress as harmless or eccentric. For example, the UK newspaper, the Daily Mail, basically calls Taylor a rockstar, highlighting public comments on his tattoos and his “wild dress sense.” Erin Brodwin, journalist with The Business Insider science column, however, was not having any of that nonsense. Brodwin focused solely on the issue of sexism, noting that Taylor had recently answered questions on his acceptance as a scientist despite his tattoos. Taylor said then: “The people I work with don’t judge me by my looks but only by the work I have done and can do. Simple.” Brodwin notes with irony: “If only women could hope to someday be judged that way too.”

Analytical Chemist Dr Raychelle Burks noted that a prominent scientist appearing before the world’s media might have chosen a different shirt to make a statement about STEM. If he wanted to appear with a woman on his shirt, why not try Ada Lovelace? Or any other prominent woman in astronomy and astrophysics whose fight for inclusion reshaped space history? Instead of celebrating STEM at this momentous event, women are reminded of our objectification and exclusion.

This matters on many levels: it matters because of the uphill battle we face in STEM fields trying to get everyone to understand that sexism in STEM is an issue that affects us all. It matters because girls are continually told that STEM is not for them. It matters because people want to find excuses for the under-representation of girls and women, rather than focusing on solutions.

Some people on social media are under-playing this incident, telling women scientists to stop spoiling the achievement with feminist discussions. One woman tweets at astronomy Professor Jennifer Hoffman, "We've officially all become prudes." Another man accuses feminism for bumming out a momentous feat. Professor Hoffman argues this is not about prudishness, it's about professional respect of women colleagues:

.@weswt @missafayres Am I serious about being respected by colleagues in my professional environment? Uh, yes. #shirtstorm
— Jennifer L. Hoffman (@astroprofhoff) November 13, 2014

The reason why some people are under-playing the significance of Taylor’s choice of shirt goes to the heart of the way in which sexism works. Sexism is not simply maintained through active harassment and discrimination. It thrives because of deeply held values that go unexamined.

On our blog post, we pay special attention to how men can help reduce the burden on women in STEM, by actively challenging sexism in professional settings. This includes calling out the lack of awareness and bias of colleagues which objectify, denigrate and otherwise make women feel excluded from science. Sexism is more than insults and physical harassment. Sexism describes the culture, organisational patterns and other practices that perpetuate inequality. The things that we say and do, whether conscious or otherwise, are connected to broader patterns of gender inequality. This is known as everyday sexism - the types of social interaction that reinforce women's lesser status at work and in wider society. This #ShirtStorm incident allows us to see how everyday actions are connected to institutional sexism; that is, the organisational and policy barriers that women face throughout their education and careers. To learn more about how this incident helps us to better understand both everyday and institutional sexism in STEM, and how you and your organisation can help address the exclusion of women, keep reading on the Stem Women website.

(The overall opinion that I've seen from peers in science whenever a discussion about the T-shirt has arisen is that it was inappropriate and demeaning.)