• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Should Microsoft just embrace "cinematic" third-person action adventure games?

Ozriel

M$FT
Microsoft should stop "embracing" companies and try to monopolise the entire world

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

Microsoft doesn't try shit because those games aren't their creations, they only came across those games when they bought the studios. Microsoft's "real" studios have been living on Halo, Gears, and Forza for 15 years, a shooter, a third-person cinematic game, and a racing game

Irrelevant discussion. Those are Microsoft’s studios now and they’re funding these games so…

Pentiment was considered a low budget game by Obsidian, a company that havent made a high budget game for quite a while now

Hi-fi Rush was also a "side dish" for Tango.

And you arent really expecting a flight sim to be big in terms of popularity, right?

It's stupid to compare them to Sony big budget games

MS have been trying that with Gears for years, without success. And now with Fable and Senua they may get it right for once.

And about the "Commercialy a flop" comment, all of them being on Game Pass Day One

Hmm, it's almost like I could see a pattern here


The conversation was about diversity of content, not whether or not HiFi Rush or Pentiment are at the same budget levels or popularity as Days Gone or Ghost of Tsushima.
 

avin

Member
I don't think so. Apart from everything else, given how long game development takes, any change of course by any of their studios will take many years to possibly pay off.

And I would personally find it depressing. For myself, I just don't get the storytelling in games. It's movie snippets broken up by gameplay, and I suspect these are made for the sort of person that doesn't really read books or watch movies, and needs their stories simplified and broken into tiny chunks. Of course, it's possible there's more to it, and I'm just old.

Still, if Doomguy gets a kid, I'm out.

avin
 
Last edited:

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
You didn't play hellbalde then. That's cinematic as hell. There's very little gameplay to it. Which isn't a bad thing of course. I loved it myself. I'm looking forward to the sequel.

I was iffy on that one. I didn’t remember a lot of movie style cut scenes interrupting the game, but I could be wrong on that.
 

Hugare

Member
What does that have to do with the topic at hand?



Irrelevant discussion. Those are Microsoft’s studios now and they’re funding these games so…




The conversation was about diversity of content, not whether or not HiFi Rush or Pentiment are at the same budget levels or popularity as Days Gone or Ghost of Tsushima.

Whole OP's point was "MS games are too diverse, thats why they dont sell", which is bullshit

Comparing low budget games to Spider-man, Tsushima and etc. and wondering why they dont sell the same is simply idiotic

I shouldnt have to explain it further, honestly

Gears is entirelly made out of the "blockbuster formula" and yet it sucks for years now, in terms of sales and reviews

MS is trying, they just suck at execution
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
That's a point from many people who just don't play Sony games. Yes they're all story oriented games but it doesn't mean there's no gameplay. I mean Demon's Souls has no gameplay ? When a From game is multiple it's the "GOTY OF THE YEAR" but when it's exclusive : no gameplay ? TLOU has a very deep gameplay, Guerrilla games too...

There’s nothing deep about TLoU. It’s your average cinematic third person adventure.
 
Sony isn't making "cinematic" third-person action adventure games because it is some kind of golden ticket. They make these games because Third Party studios are not making them. Sony is simply keeping their gaming library balanced.

Why did you think Nintendo bought Bayonetta? Certainly not because it makes money. It was to balanced out their child-friendly outputs.

Microsoft make games that Third Party is already making. FPS and GAAS. Xbox is thinking like a Third Party studio rather than being a platform. A platform is suppose to make 1st party games that they are not getting from Third Parties already. This is why Sony doesn't make FPS anymore. And this is why Nintendo make Splatoon. Sony had plenty of FPS third party games, Nintendo lack them.

Making a diverse library is a platform holder's job. MS just doesn't understand that.
 
No, because it's the most derivative form of game design out right now. Cinematic usually means a lot of hands off or light interaction with a ton of set dressing. While thy do well critically or commercially they rarely have a major hand in pushing the medium forward because a large part of their existence requires insane budgets more than creativity.
 

Roxkis_ii

Member
Xbox isn't going to grab Playstation fans making the same games Sony makes. They should find what their good at and work that lane.
 
About as much as Mass effect or HFW but don't let that stop you. Just because they have low production values in comparison doesn't mean much.


"All gameplay" is utter horseshit.


Why do I care about a video of cut scenes and boss fights?

You seem confused. Just because a game has cut scenes doesn’t make it a cinematic game. We all know what that term means. MS has games like that, there’s no need for you to be silly and throw out games like Fable or State of Decay.

State of Decay is a cinematic game
Will Ferrell Lol GIF
 
Feels like a slog already ... ugh. I couldnt make it through the 1st one.
I loved the first one but here's a thought, when showing a game that we ALREADY KNOW has great facial motion capture, how about you focus on something else that you have innovated on in the new game with a trailer. Like combat, traversal, etc. The reveal for this game was crazy! That giant encounter looks awesome! Hint at more of that!
 

Ozriel

M$FT
Whole OP's point was "MS games are too diverse, thats why they dont sell", which is bullshit

Comparing low budget games to Spider-man, Tsushima and etc. and wondering why they dont sell the same is simply idiotic

I shouldnt have to explain it further, honestly

Gears is entirelly made out of the "blockbuster formula" and yet it sucks for years now, in terms of sales and reviews

MS is trying, they just suck at execution

Nah.
It was more like “I know MS is trying to push their own thing and to be fair they’re really diverse, but that’s not what the market wants. The market wants big budget AAA cinematic games and I think they should do games like that”

There was also a side conversation where some questioned the claims that MS output was diverse. That’s the one you jumped in on.

Absolutely nobody in this thread was comparing HiFi Rush or Pentiment with Spiderman and wondering why it sold less copies.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
I loved the first one but here's a thought, when showing a game that we ALREADY KNOW has great facial motion capture, how about you focus on something else that you have innovated on in the new game with a trailer. Like combat, traversal, etc. The reveal for this game was crazy! That giant encounter looks awesome! Hint at more of that!
I wouldn't buy it for $70 after the first one, but I will be giving the sequel a shot. I just hope they've improved it. I do like some cinematic games. I just don't need MS to focus on this. Just a couple is good enough for me. Ninja Theory definitely can do better combat and gameplay, just depends on if they want to I guess.
 
What I need explained to me is why Killzone 2, a game from 2009, looks better and has better animations than Halo Infinite.

Why doesn't Xbox take Halo and make it into something extraordinary!? Put the fucking Series X to use!

Xbox would kick ass if they went back to the Gears, Halo, Fable days and just made all of their games look incredible like Sony does.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
Back on topic, I think the market really loves to go for visually rich games that bring spectacle. Think of all the gifs you’ve seen on Twitter from Sony first party titles like GOW or Horizon.

I doubt Sony would ever tolerate something that looked as bland as Redfall from their AAA studios. The market doesn’t really want to hear you explain away mediocre visuals with the ‘artistic vision’ excuse, and that’s something Arkane needs to realize.

Quality game + Quality visuals is usually a winning formula. Microsoft has been slow to learn this…I recall the reaction to Crackdown 3 for example. Aaron Greenberg screeching about ‘4K’ on the One X made no difference when the game looked like shite compared to the likes of Horizon and GOW on the (weaker) PS4 Pro.
 
Because the cutscenes are similar and tell a story between the gameplay segments just like HFW or any other game but I get it this is a MS game so we have to pretend it's different just because its production sucks.

Again, MS has games that fit this criteria. Your console warz whining would make sense if anyone was in the thread trying to say MS doesn’t make those types of games. But you’re reaching here.

State of Decay and ReCore are cinematic games
Martin Lawrence Lol GIF by Martin
 
They should embrace high production value polished games. Just calling them "cinematic 3rd person" is misleading.
You don't need to be 3rd person action to have mocap acting, and tons of polish with a $150+ million budget.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
What I need explained to me is why Killzone 2, a game from 2009, looks better and has better animations than Halo Infinite.

Why doesn't Xbox take Halo and make it into something extraordinary!? Put the fucking Series X to use!

Xbox would kick ass if they went back to the Gears, Halo, Fable days and just made all of their games look incredible like Sony does.
343 isn't the greatest obviously. But some of that seems like a fairly deliberate choice to prioritize gameplay over graphics and animations first. But that's just my guess. I think they are trying to make it look similar to the original games also.

 
Last edited:

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Fair enough, but I’m saying people want that variety. Open world cinematic is nice, but a broader variety is nicer.
In that case, games like Returnal, Demon's Souls, and Sackboy would be selling 10s of millions of copies.

Sony makes games that many people love and demand. If demand shifts, I'm sure Sony's games will also pivot accordingly. Having said that, I personally would welcome more variety, primarily because I want to see how the super talented PlayStation Studios would do different types of games.
 
Last edited:

ulantan

Member
In that case, games like Returnal, Demon's Souls, and Sackboy would be selling 10s of millions of copies.

Sony makes games that many people love and demand. If demand shifts, I'm sure Sony's games will also pivot accordingly. Having said that, I personally would welcome more variety, primarily because I want to see how the super talented PlayStation Studios would do different types of games.
Those are also third person and have cutscenes so there is no difference apparently.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
In that case, games like Returnal and Sackboy would be selling 10s of millions of copies.

Sony makes games that many people love and demand. If demand shifts, I'm sure Sony's games will also pivot accordingly.
That's the Jim Ryan mentality. Similar to the Disney mentality.

It obviously makes sense if all you look at is what is directly in front of your face, and hard sales numbers. Or you can take a broader, more long term view. You can say that as a first party publisher, you're actually the last one that should be concerned strictly with game sales. You want to cultivate a broader software library identity for the console and you're the one that can take more chances on a weird game since you don't live or die on console sales alone. Sony definitely used to think this way. Nintendo still thinks this way on some stuff.

Besides that, if you only follow what is right in front of you, by definition you can never be the one to find the next new thing. Consumers don't know what new thing they want until they see it, and that new thing never happens unless you try some weird stuff that's a gamble. Disney is finding this out right now after funding only safe sequels for years. When that works, it works well and you're the king of sales. But if consumers rapidly sour on the type of game you're selling, you can be caught flat footed when it takes years to pivot. Someone consistently testing the waters with other weirder projects will be able to adapt a bit faster if market conditions change.
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
Sony makes games that many people love and demand. If demand shifts, I'm sure Sony's games will also pivot accordingly. Having said that, I personally would welcome more variety, primarily because I want to see how the super talented PlayStation Studios would do different types of games.

Unfortunately they’re pivoting to GaaS.

But their studios have always been capable of tackling different genres well.
 
not to mention high production value, one and done 20 hour games, which they have to put to a sub service on day one, probably wouldn’t make much sense financially.

they rather fill it with gaas
That's a good point. Putting something like The last of us or Horizon on GamePass doesn't make economic sense.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
That's a good point. Putting something like The last of us or Horizon on GamePass doesn't make economic sense.
But it makes sense for my wallet. I'd play almost every cinematic game if they didn't cost $70. Guardians of the Galaxy was a ton of fun at $30. Mostly cutscenes and some casual combat, but it was funny.
 
No. The first rule of any business is to do what you are good at. Sony is good at making those type of games but not necessarily Microsoft. Redfall is a good example of a developer that was made to make a kind of game that they didn't want to. Nintendo could make their own version of GTA or Call of Duty etc but they never do. They make what they are good at and more importantly what they themselves want to make and it shows. I really hope the Forza Horizon developers actually wanted to make Fable otherwise get ready for another Redfall.
 

Hugare

Member
Nah.
It was more like “I know MS is trying to push their own thing and to be fair they’re really diverse, but that’s not what the market wants. The market wants big budget AAA cinematic games and I think they should do games like that”

There was also a side conversation where some questioned the claims that MS output was diverse. That’s the one you jumped in on.

Absolutely nobody in this thread was comparing HiFi Rush or Pentiment with Spiderman and wondering why it sold less copies.

Well, no shit that the market wants big budget games.

The "cinematic" part makes me cringe. See the 2023 top selling games so far. Are BG 3, Diablo or Zelda "cinematic"?

What the fuck is "cinematic" anyways? Doesn't Halo also has cinematics?

People calling Spider-man "cinematic". 'Cause it has cutscenes? Does it have more cutscenes than gameplay?

It has nothing to do with that. It's about delivering good games.

MS is only sticking to "diverse" AA games like those, that are comparable to a game like Stray, because they cant count on their 1st party to deliver quality AAA games. But they've been trying. And now more than never with Starfield, Senua, Fable and etc.

This idea that MS didnt know that big budget games was the market's prefference is laughable
 
Last edited:

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
They're not pivoting, they're adding to. They even increased their tradition single player games budgets along with it.


sony-live-service.jpg


I’d say they’re definitely moving when Live Service goes from 12% of their business model to 55% in 2023 and increasing to 60% by 2025. It’s eating into their single player output.

Keep in mind they’ve also got a couple of their top traditional game making teams doing Live Service games. Even if we’re to say it’s not a pivot, it’s definitely a step away from their traditional games and towards Live Service.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
sony-live-service.jpg


I’d say they’re definitely moving when Live Service goes from 12% of their business model to 55% in 2023 and increasing to 60% by 2025. It’s eating into their single player output.

Keep in mind they’ve also got a couple of their top traditional game making teams doing Live Service games. Even if we’re to say it’s not a pivot, it’s definitely a step away from their traditional games and towards Live Service.
Ah yes, the infamous out of context bar graph.

mckmas8808 mckmas8808 I believe is more privy and should have the text data.
 

Bry0

Member
They should let their studios make what they want to. Pretty simple. Trying to force some god of war or tlou competitor would be a disaster.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
MS is only sticking to "diverse" AA games like those, that are comparable to a game like Stray, because they cant count on their 1st party to deliver quality AAA games. But they've been trying. And now more than never with Starfield, Senua, Fable and etc.

This idea that MS didnt know that big budget games was the market's prefference is laughable

They’ve been delivering AAA games with MC ratings from 80 - 90+% for the past couple of years now. Gears 5, Halo Infinite, MSFS, Forza Horizon 5, Deathloop

The OP is talking about big budget single player narrative games.
 
This is what I like about Playstation, there isn't a single genre of gaming that's missing on Playstation. So yes Microsoft should also make single-player narrative games. Versatility is a good thing.
 

Poltz

Member
sony-live-service.jpg


I’d say they’re definitely moving when Live Service goes from 12% of their business model to 55% in 2023 and increasing to 60% by 2025. It’s eating into their single player output.

Keep in mind they’ve also got a couple of their top traditional game making teams doing Live Service games. Even if we’re to say it’s not a pivot, it’s definitely a step away from their traditional games and towards Live Service.
Look at the true values of traditional. Even if it's 40% vs 45% it's still a higher amount.
 
Last edited:

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Unfortunately they’re pivoting to GaaS.

But their studios have always been capable of tackling different genres well.
It's just the unfortunate reality of the gaming industry that the overwhelming majority of gamers prefer GaaS games and spend money on in-game transactions and add-ons.

Just look at the latest PlayStation's financials. Even without any popular first-party GaaS games, PlayStation's revenue from GaaS add-ons was more than physical + digital software sales combined.

They are pivoting as per gamers' demand.
 

hussar16

Member
I'll begin this by saying that I own all consoles, so there's no fanboyism or even brand loyalty to a particular company. I go with whatever is the best value prop at the time.

It's sometimes disappointing to see Microsoft keep trying to push a variety of games in different genres beyond the typical FPS or over-the-shoulder action adventure (e.g. Pentiment, Hi-Fi Rush, Flight Simulator,...) only to be critically successful but commercially a flop. Say what you wanna say about the war chest or fear of industry consolidation, but Microsoft gives their studios at least SOME creative freedom and they try to fill up GamePass with a variety of experiences.

Sony, on the other hand, seems to have found what works best for them commercially and they don't seem very eager to move beyond these "cinematic", Michael Bay-ish, overly emotional games like TLOU. Not only that but at least TLOU was born like such a game. Now God of War, Final Fantasy, and arguably Spider-Man have been transformed into these cinematic third party action adventures. The "movie-game" meme is real. That said, I have played all of those Sony exclusives and they are great. There's a reason why they appeal to people and sell so much. But I feel that that's money at the cost of progress, curiosity and innovation of the industry.

Microsoft is a behemoth company, it's not that they're struggling. But they do have a much lower market share when compared to Sony in the gaming industry worldwide. I just hope Sony doesn't rest on their laurels and can start going beyond these kinds of games.
Sony didn't embrace it.if they did they would have released a sequal for order 1886 which was exactly a real cinematic experience.
 
Top Bottom