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[Combichristoffersen]

The book is definitely eurocentric, but I still fail to see how it's supposed to be racist.

As for it being sexist, yeah, I could see that. I don't think there was any ill intent behind it though, just a combination of Tolkien belonging to a bygone era, and his tendency to sort of put women on a pedestal.

 

[Freshmaker]

The book is definitely eurocentric, but I still fail to see how it's supposed to be racist.

As for it being sexist, yeah, I could see that. I don't think there was any ill intent behind it though, just a combination of Tolkien belonging to a bygone era, and his tendency to sort of put women on a pedestal.

There's also the issue to historical attitudes towards women. If you're talking about times featuring castles and swords, women weren't exactly regarded as equals.

 

[Melchiah]

I can understand the book being taken for Eurocentric since Tolkien was trying to create a mythography for England since it had no such thing unlike Greece or Scandinavia etc.

Excalibur, King Arthur, and the knights of the round table?

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Excalibur, King Arthur, and the knights of the round table?

Those are of French origin, and Tolkien hated most everything French.

 

[nib95]

The book is definitely eurocentric, but I still fail to see how it's supposed to be racist.

As for it being sexist, yeah, I could see that. I don't think there was any ill intent behind it though, just a combination of Tolkien belonging to a bygone era, and his tendency to sort of put women on a pedestal.

Could being Eurocentric not be seen as being racist though? Don't see why not just because it's disguised as a separate coined term. Point is, in this fictional world it's a good race of White only folk battling evil races that resemble Persians, Arabs and Black people. Does Eurocentric'ness usually involve Whites fighting off the other non-White 'evil' races? I ask because I'm trying to get a better understanding of the term.

 

[Freshmaker]

Excalibur, King Arthur, and the knights of the round table?

He was looking to create a whole flat earth styled mythology for England. Most of England's legends were piecemeal and didn't really cover a whole lot.

Even if you want to use camelot stuff, that just addresses one kingdom and doesn't get around to explaining the creation of the world etc.

Could being Eurocentric not be seen as being racist though?

The dude was looking to write a mythology for England. It's going to be rather focused on England as a result.

Don't see why not just because it's disguised as a separate coined term.

So people claiming Jesus, Cleopatra and Aristotle were black are racists?

Point is, in this fictional world it's a good race of White only folk battling evil races that resemble Persians, Arabs and Black people. Does Eurocentric'ness usually involve Whites fighting off the other non-White 'evil' races? I ask because I'm trying to get a better understanding of the term.

It means the story is mainly focused on Europe. Specifically, a fantasy story based largely in medieval England. There weren't that many people other than white people around those areas at the time.

 

[Melchiah]

Those are of French origin, and Tolkien hated most everything French.

I thought it was of Welsh origin?

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Could being Eurocentric not be seen as being racist though? Don't see why not just because it's disguised as a separate coined term. Point is, in this fictional world it's a good race of White only folk battling evil races that resemble Persians, Arabs and Black people. Does Eurocentric'ness usually involve Whites fighting off the other non-White 'evil' races? I ask because I'm trying to get a better understanding of the term.

If the book clearly described people of non-European origin/non-white people as somehow inferior to white people, it would've been racist. But LotR never really calls the people of Harad or Rhûn lesser human beings (the book even questions whether these people are really evil or just misled by Sauron), simply because it never goes into much detail about those areas or the people living there. The book is Eurocentric in the sense that it focuses specifically on people living in a fictional area that is supposed to correspond to modern northwestern Europe, without paying much attention to the people living in other areas of Middle-earth (that would likely correspond to Africa and the Middle-east). So no, in the context of LotR, its Eurocentrism isn't really racist.

 

[legend166]

Unfortunately LOTR (and I am talking about the book), is racist. No ifs and buts about it. And it was written during a period that there was nothing wrong about the kind of stereotyping the book does.

It is also very sexist. A happy female in this book is a female that settles for the next best.

And according to the book, novelty and most good things come from blood. Aragon has no leadership quality (in the book) and yet he becomes a king and has a healing hand.

Tolkien was a good Christian. I wouldn't expect anything different given a typical Christian at the time this book was written.

Those of you that accusing other people reading too much into all those references in the book that "fair skin" by default is good and "black" is bad, are either in denial or have not read the book. (I have read it 8 times and no, I was -not- looking for any sign of racism). You probably believe Old Testament does not advocate ethnical cleansing either and others are reading -too much- into it.

Worst post ever.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Could being Eurocentric not be seen as being racist though? Don't see why not just because it's disguised as a separate coined term. Point is, in this fictional world it's a good race of White only folk battling evil races that resemble Persians, Arabs and Black people. Does Eurocentric'ness usually involve Whites fighting off the other non-White 'evil' races? I ask because I'm trying to get a better understanding of the term.

The two can certainly be associated with each other, but are not always the same thing.

Most histories of the world written in Europe have traditionally been Eurocentric. This does not mean that they are necessarily racist, just that the main bias in them is a tendancy to anachronistically focus upon events in Europe over the rest of the world. This in many ways is a natural tendency, it is only an issue when it makes bad history or is taught in, say, Australia.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

I thought it was of Welsh origin?

After looking into it, yeah, you're right. Though I'm dead sure I've read somewhere that the Arthurian legends were of French origin.

 

[nib95]

If the book clearly described people of non-European origin/non-white people as somehow inferior to white people, it would've been racist. But LotR never really calls the people of Harad or Rhûn lesser human beings (the book even questions whether these people are really evil or just misled by Sauron), simply because it never goes into much detail about those areas or the people living there. The book is Eurocentric in the sense that it focuses specifically on people living in a fictional area that is supposed to correspond to modern northwestern Europe, without paying much attention to the people living in other areas of Middle-earth (that would likely correspond to Africa and the Middle-east). So no, in the context of LotR, its Eurocentrism isn't really racist.

Fair enough when you put it like that. Guess it would have been nice for the movies to elaborate a little like they did with the Orks (mutated Elfs).

But then it brings me to a new sort of unrelated point which just sprung to mind based on your comments. Would you regard the Nazi soldiers, generals etc of past as evil or not? Or simply, as you expressed the book mentioned, "misled"? Does anyone have the capacity to do evil or is it intrinsic only to those of lesser moral standing in the first place?

 

[Freshmaker]

After looking into it, yeah, you're right. Though I'm dead sure I've read somewhere that the Arthurian legends were of French origin.

Lancelot was a French invention. Sir Gawain was the cool guy before Lancelot was injected into the legend.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

But then it brings me to a new sort of unrelated point which just sprung to mind based on your comments. Would you regard the Nazi soldiers, generals etc of past as evil or not? Or simply, as you expressed the book mentioned, "misled"? Does anyone have the capacity to do evil or is it intrinsic only to those of lesser moral standing in the first place?

I'd probably consider the Nazi generals evil, because most of them must've been aware of what was going on with the Holocaust. As for the soldiers, I don't really know what to think. Of course they were no saints, but they surely didn't know the full extent of what was going on within the Third Reich. I don't know. It's a difficult subject to touch upon. But I don't think the Nazi soldiers were misled in the same sense that the Haradrim or the Easterlings were, as the Nazi soldiers most likely were more aware of the motifs and intentions of their superiors than the Haradrim or Easterlings were.

 

[Chuckie]

I thought it was of Welsh origin?

I thought so too. Didn't the Frenchies 'steal' it and added some of the more modern stuff. Like the knights of the round table.

edit: Beaten like a whore who isn't making any money

 

[iamblades]

I'd probably consider the Nazi generals evil, because most of them must've been aware of what was going on with the Holocaust. As for the soldiers, I don't really know what to think. Of course they were no saints, but they surely didn't know the full extent of what was going on within the Third Reich. I don't know. It's a difficult subject to touch upon. But I don't think the Nazi soldiers were misled in the same sense that the Haradrim or the Easterlings were, as the Nazi soldiers most likely were more aware of the motifs and intentions of their superiors than the Haradrim or Easterlings were.

^^ most of the wehrmacht I wouldn't consider to be strictly evil, the SS and many of the army leaders are a different matter.

 

[nib95]

I thought so too. Didn't the Frenchies 'steal' it and added some of the more modern stuff. Like the knights of the round table.

edit: Beaten like a whore who isn't making any money

Holy shit I feel dirty for laughing but that was too good! LOL.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

edit: Beaten like a whore who isn't making any money

Sexist Tolkien approves!

Spoiler

I feel bad for laughing

 

[onipex]

Wow, really. Honestly I thought this was dead. I was pretty sure people have moved on to Avatar being raciest now. Complaining that it had to be a white man that saved the blue people.

Hmmm, maybe I should make a thread about that to get GAF up the date.

 

[Devolution]

Wow, really. Honestly I thought this was dead. I was pretty sure people have moved on to Avatar being raciest now. Complaining that it had to be a white man that saved the blue people.

Hmmm, maybe I should make a thread about that to get GAF up the date.

Well it is funny that a white guy basically goes native, becomes a "master" at the shit they've been doing for years in weeks (months?), and unites them all to revolt against the invaders.

I mean it's not really a new concept either. White man comin' in and savin' the day amongst the noble savage.

 

[iamblades]

I thought so too. Didn't the Frenchies 'steal' it and added some of the more modern stuff. Like the knights of the round table.

edit: Beaten like a whore who isn't making any money

Well it's really hard to say who stole what and who added what exactly, both the Welsh and the Bretons had tales of king arthur, but King arthur was not part of the anglo saxon mythology, in fact in the legends he actually defeats the saxons.

Arthur was a celtic/breton/welsh hero who somehow got to be the hero of the whole british isles, and then when the anglo saxons came to dominate the british isles he became the english hero as well, probably when england was put under norman rule along with brittany and wales.

Of course what confuses the issue between 'french' and 'welsh' is that the Bretons lived in what is now modern day france, and were actually celtic settlers from the british isles, hence Bretons. When the normans(the real frenchies) conquered Brittany, Wales, and England, there was a lot of cross cultural exchange going on, so its hard to say what came from where.

 

[onipex]

Well it is funny that a white guy basically goes native, becomes a "master" at the shit they've been doing for years in weeks (months?), and unites them all to revolt against the invaders.

I mean it's not really a new concept either. White man comin' in and savin' the day amongst the noble savage.

Nope, nothing new at all.

 

[iamblades]

Wow, really. Honestly I thought this was dead. I was pretty sure people have moved on to Avatar being raciest now. Complaining that it had to be a white man that saved the blue people.

Hmmm, maybe I should make a thread about that to get GAF up the date.

This is a better example of racism in fictional movie settings, as it implies inferiority of one of the races, as opposed to LotR where the bad races weren't really inferior, they were just bad guys(not even that really, they were just being controlled by a bad guy).

 

[Raist]

It is also very sexist.

Oh yeah, that too. Which is why the Witch King was defeated by a woman. Very very sexist. Bad JRR.

 

[gutter_trash]

never noticed it in LOTRs and I am not even a fan;
I thought that the bad guys were just colorless, ugly and generic

 

[krzy123]

In Stargate, Thor is initially represented as the standard Norse version, as SG-1 visits a planet and it contains a message from Thor (a holographic stored version) ... The Asgard are revealed to be gray aliens much later.

 

[Salazar]

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...ended-over-racial-remarks-20110315-1bvny.html

Bumping this thread for an actual and avowed case of moronic and parochial bigotry.

 

[SmokyDave]

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...ended-over-racial-remarks-20110315-1bvny.html

Bumping this thread for an actual and avowed case of moronic and parochial bigotry.

From that hotbed of scandal, The Radio Times!

Midsomer is set in the present day, isn't it?

 

[Salazar]

Midsomer is set in the present day, isn't it?

Allegedly. An Aryan county.

 

[SmokyDave]

Allegedly. An Aryan county.

It's a tricky one. I'd imagine the viewers want to see a 'quaint' little English village, and racial diversity doesn't really factor into that image. Midsomer is obviously a painfully 'twee' place where the vicars wife cycles along by the cricket green, in a long flowery skirt. Poor people and minorities aren't part of that England. It seems like the same reason that Eastenders presents an unrealistic demographic for the East End of London, to pander to what viewers want, rather than the way things really are.

Ultimately, I'd say the creator was welcome to envisage whatever racial makeup he chooses for his village and provided that there is no attempt made to disparage other races, no harm is done. The program is probably shit either way, John Nettles has been irrelevant since Bergerac.

 

[Chuckie]

The program is probably shit either way, John Nettles has been irrelevant since Bergerac.

It is awesome actually. Well it is for us Euro's. We can dream away and imagine that is what England is like. Archery festivals and pie-baking contests in the sun, with an occasional murder mystery. It's like professor Layton

 

[Ultima ratio regum]

I'd probably consider the Nazi generals evil, because most of them must've been aware of what was going on with the Holocaust. As for the soldiers, I don't really know what to think. Of course they were no saints, but they surely didn't know the full extent of what was going on within the Third Reich. I don't know. It's a difficult subject to touch upon. But I don't think the Nazi soldiers were misled in the same sense that the Haradrim or the Easterlings were, as the Nazi soldiers most likely were more aware of the motifs and intentions of their superiors than the Haradrim or Easterlings were.

how about crest of the stars, and the zenith of the master race governing mankind?

This is disturbing.

 

[daviyoung]

We can dream away and imagine that is what England is like.

Exactly, it's an English fantasy. I can't remember any racial minorities in any Richard Curtis comedies either. Vicar of Dibley? Blackadder? Four Weddings and a Funeral? Notting Hill?

Although I feel the guy has been mis-quoted, saying Midsomer is successful because there are only white middle-class people in it isn't going to win you many friends.

I wonder what his views are on female linesmen...

 

[Chuckie]

Exactly, it's an English fantasy. I can't remember any racial minorities in any Richard Curtis comedies either. Vicar of Dibley? Blackadder? Four Weddings and a Funeral? Notting Hill?

Although I feel the guy has been mis-quoted, saying Midsomer is successful because there are only white middle-class people in it isn't going to win you many friends.

I wonder what his views are on female linesmen...

To be honest I didn't notice there weren't any colored people in Midsomer. I thought some of the policemen and women were, but I might be confused with another serial.

What I mean to say is: I am looking at the environment and situations, not the people per se. I think Midsomer would still be a fantasy nice place with ethnic minorities. So if the producer actually said that... he should STFU, apologize and put some colored people in Midsomer


edit: What the hell is that image supposed to mean?
V V V

 

[Chinese Electric Batman]

 

[fabricated backlash]

Could being Eurocentric not be seen as being racist though? Don't see why not just because it's disguised as a separate coined term. Point is, in this fictional world it's a good race of White only folk battling evil races that resemble Persians, Arabs and Black people. Does Eurocentric'ness usually involve Whites fighting off the other non-White 'evil' races? I ask because I'm trying to get a better understanding of the term.

No absolutely not. Its an ethnocentric attitude, not a classifying act against races. Racism is very clearly defined, and nothing in TLOTR or Tolkiens life, publications or statements falls under those definitions. Eurocentric mostly means that a person has a overly focus on European Culture and disregards other cultures achievements (mostly unreflected as well)


And even then, calling TLOTR eurocentric is as nonsensical as calling Beowulf eurocentric. It's a moot point really. Is the gilgamesh Arab-centric? It is not.
Besides, it's a fictional world, like you said. It tries to emulate other folk tales and myths for England. Nothing more nothing less. It takes the narrative structures of those tales and adapts it for his own story.

Like many have said before, you could have a point if Tolkien himself hadn't been so opposed to racism during his lifetime.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...ended-over-racial-remarks-20110315-1bvny.html

Bumping this thread for an actual and avowed case of moronic and parochial bigotry.

I see his point, although it was presented in a rather unfortunate way. I don't think the series is succesful due to its all-white cast, I'd say it's more due to how it portrays the semi-mythical rural English village.

 

[Salazar]

I see his point, although it was presented in a rather unfortunate way. I don't think the series is succesful due to its all-white cast, I'd say it's more due to how it portrays the semi-mythical rural English village.

He comes off as saying that people watch it as an act of tacit escape from black and Asian and Eastern European folks. Way to mash the self-destruct button in a Radio Times interview.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Could being Eurocentric not be seen as being racist though? Don't see why not just because it's disguised as a separate coined term. Point is, in this fictional world it's a good race of White only folk battling evil races that resemble Persians, Arabs and Black people. Does Eurocentric'ness usually involve Whites fighting off the other non-White 'evil' races? I ask because I'm trying to get a better understanding of the term.

No, Tolkien wrote it as an anglo fable. If you don't like it because it's too White, that's your fucking problem.

You'd be the first to moan if they started shoving white men into pakistani tales with no rhyme or reason.

As for the "arab looking" baddies, gondor is based on the byzantines...you know, those guys who spent 400 years battling arabs, muslims and turks, and even faced betrayal from those of their own faith. It's a fascinating part of history ripe for storytelling.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

He comes off as saying that people watch it as an act of tacit escape from black and Asian and Eastern European folks. Way to mash the self-destruct button in a Radio Times interview.

Yeah, it was a rather unfortunate way to present his opinion :lol