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'Some' YouTubers approach indie developer asking for sales revenue of his game.
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ZackieChan
Member
Plenty of things in the world are "despicable." This really isn't one of them. We don't know all of the facts here, so jumping to such a conclusion seems a little premature. When you enter a negotiation, you generally want to ask for your "best case scenario" deal. If you think that you can deliver value and more sales, why not ask for some portion of game revenue? Then they counter offer, and you continue to negotiate.
In a way, the anonymous YouTuber was sort of going about things the right way. Rather than just relying on fair use, they were reaching out to the dev to work out a deal that works for both of them. As we don't know the specifics and we don't know about the business savvy of this dev (who may be overreacting because he doesn't realize that it's a legitimate way to do co-marketing), maybe it's a little disingenuous to be calling it despicable.
You spoke as if it's so easy to get angry and rage at video games!
Wolves Evolve
Member
No, I think despicable is a very defensible term in this environment and context. It could well be that the caster believes they should be paid, and that they can ask for money - flat fees, percentage of sales, etc. But what occurs here is that the videos become paid advertising, the audience doesn't know, and a potentially extortative culture opens up which historically - 100% of the time - harms smaller operators more than it hurts bigger ones. Plenty of business-driven decisions which may seem smart or necessary can also be despicable. Capitalism can be despicable. It's okay. We can say that and not move to Cuba.
ZackieChan
Member
Your reasoning is full of assumptions and slippery slopes, though. You don't know the specifics of what was offered, nor do you know what would have happened should the negotiation gone forward. You don't know whether or not the relationship would be disclosed as sponsored content, etc.
And if the caster believes that they are delivering value that results in higher sales numbers, why shouldn't they be paid? Is the issue the fact that it's in the form of a percentage of net profit? Well, that's up to the game creator and caster to negotiate, I think. It could be a non-exclusive arrangement, so as not to cut out "smaller operators."
I guess I just think that you're overreaching when you point to a culture of extortion. What is the evidence for that in this situation? Getting one side of the story from a party with very personal involvement?
This is very wrong, any arguments otherwise are most likely coming from incognito double dipping youtubers trying to justify their greed.
Aside from what's obviously wrong with this picture, opinions expressed in videos which developers paid for cannot be trusted. There is simply no way that the payments made or considerations of future payments do not influence "reviewers".
I appreciate Roth's dilemma. IMO, he took the best approach, shedding light on the issue without setting anyone up for the sweet billy treatment.
Aside from what's obviously wrong with this picture, opinions expressed in videos which developers paid for cannot be trusted. There is simply no way that the payments made or considerations of future payments do not influence "reviewers".
I appreciate Roth's dilemma. IMO, he took the best approach, shedding light on the issue without setting anyone up for the sweet billy treatment.
He always comes off as very honest and upfront about that sort of stuff to me. Like he even has disclaimers when he's given a game for free. And I don't watch a ton of his stuff, but I almost think he's even talked about stuff like this before.
But don't let that stop your crazy hate train
Hmm. Simon Roth specifically said on his twitter that no one asked him for cash for a video they already made, and that seems to be the major problem people have with this.
If they make a deal before the fact i don't see the problem. The developer would obviously only enter such a deal if he thinks he can make a net gain from it. And i assume we are talking about a playthrough rather than a review. Good reviews for cash is obviously not kosher.
If they make a deal before the fact i don't see the problem. The developer would obviously only enter such a deal if he thinks he can make a net gain from it. And i assume we are talking about a playthrough rather than a review. Good reviews for cash is obviously not kosher.
TekGryphon
Banned
As a Kickstarter backer of Maia, I want names and blood.
ZackieChan
Member
I'm thinking that this discussion is being colored by some people's blanket contempt for YouTube Let's Play'ers and lots of assumptions, like assuming that there would be no indication that a financial relationship existed when a "review" is "bought."
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
It's more effort than the Kardashians put in.
ZackieChan
Member
Why? Why does being a Kickstarter backer mean that you deserve "names and blood," or anything beyond what you were promised as a reward? How does this affect you in any way?
Serious questions
Ronku is a good indication on how much transparency is to be expected, as little as they can get away with. There is no youtube channel with a disclaimer indicating they are willing to trade exposure for a sales cut.
Taking a payment from devs to do videos and the option of collaboration for future games weigh too much for any kind of good output to be produced. Youtubers are more likely to forget to mention the payment than to forget to monetize the video.
Taking a payment from devs to do videos and the option of collaboration for future games weigh too much for any kind of good output to be produced. Youtubers are more likely to forget to mention the payment than to forget to monetize the video.
He's actually pretty fucking anal about his quality and integrity standards most of the time. I remember him mentioning recently that he now has access to the data that lets him see Steam games get sales spikes when he does a video but I got the impression he was going to use it as a bargaining chip when trying to get coverage from protective publishers, not extort indie developers.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
"I paid twenty bucks towards the Oculus Rift Kickstarter, so I deserve some of the $2b."
TeddyShardik
Banned
So some youtubers are idiots with huge inflated egos? Say it ain't true!
Hey guys, some indie game developers are assholes and rip you off.
Name names or gtfo honestly. I know he probably didn't intend it but when you state stuff like this so broadly you just make everyone look bad while the big egos don't give a damn and continue doing this.
Hey guys, some indie game developers are assholes and rip you off.
Name names or gtfo honestly. I know he probably didn't intend it but when you state stuff like this so broadly you just make everyone look bad while the big egos don't give a damn and continue doing this.
paradise_circus
Member
I think guys like pewdiepew are pretty big enough to pay him so the game gets greater attention.
Exactly. Every industry has it's low-lifes.
DrROBschiz
Member
Good god
And this is after the controversy over big companies shutting down youtubers.
These assholes are only making those actions more justified.
We have a good thing going be able to share out thoughts and experiences with our communities in a free manner.
Fuck youtube ad monetization for incentivising this kind of behavior.
And this is after the controversy over big companies shutting down youtubers.
These assholes are only making those actions more justified.
We have a good thing going be able to share out thoughts and experiences with our communities in a free manner.
Fuck youtube ad monetization for incentivising this kind of behavior.
It would be great if it was him. Then people could stop kissing his ass so much.
You could go to your employer and ask them to sponsor you wearing their apparel outside of work. If the employer gets a benefit then why would they not take it up?
BumblebeeCody
Member
As someone who watches a lot of YouTube and uploads, you can be a scumbag like as you want. There's a lot of decent people but you'll find so many people ripping a trailer for [insert game/film etc], re-upload it to their channel and then monetise it. It's the ultimate scumbag way of getting money with no consequences. It's so easy to do and so many people do it. Surprised this hasn't been talked about before. YouTube is the ultimate shitty way of making money because of how easy it is to play a game and get paid.
Why wouldn't they try to want more from an indie developer?
More Fun To Compute
Member
Looking at the recent yogscast videos there are ones that are very obvious PR pieces for trials. The only indication they have that it is paid content or advertising are the words, "a big thanks to Ubisoft for making this possible!" They are in the text description below the video that you have to click show more to see.
It does make you wonder why they chose don't starve and everquest next to get "let's play" content also.
It does make you wonder why they chose don't starve and everquest next to get "let's play" content also.
RicoTheMad
Banned
I don't think they're all talentless.
I've seen some genuinely good youtube personalities who I enjoy watching, even as a game dev. They take time to edit their videos and sometimes put in more time reviewing your games and looking at them than some online sites.
As with anything though, it varies depending on who you're talking about and what kind of content they make. People like Markiplier for example, I often enjoy his videos because they tend to be overall pretty positive and constructive. Angry Joe is a controversial one in GAF it seems, but I personally see his videos try to point out both positives and negatives, unlike other online press who pick one bad/good point to harp on in their article because they think it will get them views and just spew the line nonstop.
I think you tubers are a great asset to indie game developers because they often times unearth games the press would otherwise ignore. I was surprised to see a big boost in my traffic due to Markiplier doing a Let's Play of one of my free games, which had been otherwise ignored by other online gaming sites. While the online "game press" seems to be actively trying to ignore any game from people they don't know, You Tubers are going out of their way to try to find a new game nobody has ever seen before. There's some value to that for everyone.
All that said, I don't think it would be a bad idea to hire a you tuber with a good following to do your marketing. Let's be clear here, I say "marketing" as in be the face of your game, and not be shady or unclear about it. As long as the agenda is visible, I think that's probably quite a decent choice for a marketing person, given that if they have a large following it means they know how to reach people and grow an audience.
What I'm against is back room deals where a Youtuber who claims no affiliation asks for money to produce favorable content in their channel. That's a shady practice nobody should employ... but I'm fairly sure some do anyway.
not "some cash", a percentage of the game profits
huge difference
also this wasn't done AFTER the fact for videos. it's before anything is recorded
AlteredForms
Banned
As a note to users. SocialBlade estimations are often way off from the actual figures. I've seen comparison videos and checked out the service myself, with some discrepancies present. Not to mention the money is cut by taxes and then divided amongst the marketing channel who own you and then you get your cut. You make money, just not the figures you hoped you would.
Yeah. You gotta be somebody famous and popular first though, but there's nothing strange about it. Imagine Nike tweeting about how obnoxious Ronaldo is because he had the nerve to ask them for money in exchange for endorsing Nike products...
pewdiepie is crazy popular, if you are a developer you might actually want to give him boatloads of money to make sure that he is seen having fun with YOUR game.
Fattony12000
Member
What. No.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
My shoes say Nike on them. Shouldn't I be compensated for spreading awareness of their product? My t-shirt has my favorite band's logo on it. Where's my cut of their record sales?
You can't negotiate your terms after the fact.
It's like a kid mowing your lawn and then holding his hand out for payment without ever ringing your doorbell and asking "Hey, would you like me to mow your lawn?"
Vlodril
Member
the guy said it was not after the fact they approached him with a proposal and he refused i take it.
Also who is to say that they wouldn't mention that this is a paid promo, a lot of youtubers do(it would be good if we knew for a fact who has accepted money for a promo and did not disclose it).
Also who is to say that they wouldn't mention that this is a paid promo, a lot of youtubers do(it would be good if we knew for a fact who has accepted money for a promo and did not disclose it).
VibratingDonkey
Member
Oh never mind then, I guess, kind of. At least they're not total scumbags.
Ostensibly selling your opinions and not covering games unless you get paid extra, by the people responsible for making the things which sustain your pay in the first place. It's kind of...sure, it could be worthwhile advertising, but...you're a shilleech. That's fine, I guess, you can be that if you want, but what bothers me is the potential for these people to be masquerading as having integrity and being trustworthy.
Preferably they should be made to wear some sort of hat, but barring that, Youtubers who do sponsored videos should at least have to edit an obvious disclaimer into the start of the actual video. From what I've seen (which is admittedly not much) they try to get away with mentioning it in the description somewhere. On iOS and Android the description doesn't even appear unless you engage it. This (intentional or otherwise) obfuscation of the fact that you're watching a paid advertisement is a problem.
are you ronaldo? if you are, go for it. you will make plenty of money doing exactly that.
I like this solution
