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[shinobi602]

I'm dying for next gen consoles, but there is no fucking way I'll get them if I can't play used games. I'd say about 90% of my game purchases are used.

 

[benny_a]

Yeah... So? How is that related to console manufacturers giving upon (or more properly: deliberately cutting out) the used market?

People are saying it will result in less sales, because a lot of sales at GameStop are based on trade-in.
Less sales means these kind of big budget games aren't worth making any more.
The PC will not suddenly start picking up the slack for those companies.

Edit: I've bolded the point just to make it crystal clear. They aren't just random games I thought up. They are games that win GOTY awards on GAF.

Did the huge differences between PC and proprietary consoles went over your head in some way?

I don't understand the reason for that sentence. Unless you mean the huge discrepancy of sales for the kind of games I've enumerated on PC vs. consoles.

I would say a lot of things go over that guys head constantly. Just ignore him, there is literally no reason to have a conversation with him.

Still waiting for that rebuttal. And you said yourself it's so easy.
I don't know why you keep sniping if you could just reply with great arguments you keep holding back.

 

[gatti-man]

I'm dying for next gen consoles, but there is no fucking way I'll get them if I can't play used games. I'd say about 90% of my game purchases are used.

Then why should any developer care about what you think? Why should Sony? I guess MS could make a tiny bit of money off of xbl fees. But basically you just rendered your opinion moot.

 

[Klocker]

If a system prevents me from selling or buying used games, I will not buy that system. Unless we see the publishers pass on the savings by offering games at a lower price, which will probably never happen.

this

All games at $39.00 NEW and no used games so publishers get paid for all sales? I could live with that.

 

[Reigan]

God damn it.


I always buy used games.

You dont like supporting devs?

 

[see5harp]

I'm dying for next gen consoles, but there is no fucking way I'll get them if I can't play used games. I'd say about 90% of my game purchases are used.

I'd probably think long and hard as well, but only because I rarely even buy games. 90% of the games I finish are gamefly or redbox rentals. The only reason I tolerate the DRM on Steam is because of the ridiculous prices. I don't think I've bought a new game digitally for $50 ever.

 

[gatti-man]

All this would do is accelerate the death of any unique games and make the COD's even bigger. If people can't get anything back from a game should they dislike it, they're going to be more risk averse. They'll stick to what they know they'll like and shun any game not like it.

Demos? Reviews? Kiosks? This is also supposing rental copies won't be allowed through licensing agreements. There are plenty of ways to try games and know what you are getting into.

I'd probably think long and hard as well, but only because I rarely even buy games. 90% of the games I finish are gamefly or redbox rentals. The only reason I tolerate the DRM on Steam is because of the ridiculous prices. I don't think I've bought a new game digitally for $50 ever.

With no used games its easy to suppose older games would drop to steam like prices over time. I doubt as fast as PC but I bet it would still happen.

 

[DR3AM]

While I don't buy used games, I like to sell my games on eBay/Craigslist and make some money. This would suck if you could not play used games on the PS4. It would also suck for young kids because they are the one who purchase most used games at GS.

 

[grimshawish]

This only works if the game is only resold once.

Which would actually be possible to implement with this system, and an interesting option.

I disagree actually. Buyer C pays for Buyer B to get the product.
If we really go down this long line then quite frankly were leaving the time period where publishers are looking to make their sales.

After this period they'll provide deals and price cuts. Second Hand is actually only really worth it in that first few periods/sales. After which the value decreases in comparison to a more reliable first hand copy.

I feel the 'going after trade ins' is scrapping the barrel. Most people though could probably suggest a few ways for publishers to make their own productions more optimised though. Which would be both easier and more clean cut way of boosting profits.


I think the biggest value from trading a product in isn't to the shop or customers buying it; but by far to the original seller. Without whom sales for the product would fall. Meanwhile buyer B...might hold off now, or buy an entirely different game.

Buyers A/B/C will hold off a few months instead. Buyer A will likely buy less games, and also never pay the full launch retail value for one.

Any buyers after these initial 3 are worth very little overall and as I say the trade in market begins to get a bit less well valued by this time period; so generally it comes to how the game is available.


Anyway. I think the value is made back over time. Buyers B/C are not necessarily always buying preowned. The publishers are wanting to compete with each other over less sales but hoping to optimise their own - not the markets. Which is why it would be stupid for any platform producer to push for this.

Less people will buy games for the platform and less people will buy the platform.
And retailers are a big part in marketing platforms.


So yeah. Its all very negative in my view, and slightly over arrogant views by publishers on their own games. Better to compete themselves for customers A/B/C by offering the value that makes their wallet open as oppose to closing the industry off to them.


Japan is pretty much great evidence of a massive gaming industry on all levels. The money goes upwards.

Spoiler

Or do what Nintendo do and 'accidentally' not produce enough Animal Crossing so people have to download it *cough*lol*cough*

 

[Version 3.0]

I hope this is true, and I hope they get sued into oblivion. All this anti-used BS needs to be settled as soon as possible. I think it's in clear violation of US Law regarding First Sale Doctrine.

But one way or another, we need to know: do we own what we buy or not? I can tell you, if the answer is "no", I'm never paying more than a few bucks for a game again. If it's a rental, I'm paying rental prices.

And all that's aside from the other issues this would bring up. What if I own two consoles that I have in different rooms of my house (which I do)? What if I want my son to share my game library? Why can't I lend a game to my brother?

Such a load of shit.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

I'm dying for next gen consoles, but there is no fucking way I'll get them if I can't play used games. I'd say about 90% of my game purchases are used.

enjoy it while you can though, because retail gaming is going the way of the dodo eventually.

 

[Version 3.0]

Then why should any developer care about what you think? Why should Sony? I guess MS could make a tiny bit of money off of xbl fees. But basically you just rendered your opinion moot.

Because he's buying games from me, and I pay $60 and buy every game on Day 1, that's why. But if I can't sell them to gatti-man, then I'll stop buying them at all.

God, why can't people understand this? The ignorance is outrageous.

 

[Grimm Fandango]

I hate how publishers think games are only a "single serving" type of entertainment like movie theaters.

 

[Corto]

Too much of a hassle. In mid-next-generation, next-next generation every content will be digital delivered and used games will be a thing of the past. The cost of implementing this system, and the negative image that would come attached to it is not worth the effort. At least I hope so.

 

[shinobi602]

enjoy it while you can though, because retail gaming is going the way of the dodo eventually.

I'm taking advantage of it as long as I can, because waiting a couple months to get games at $20-30 as opposed to 60 new is what has allowed me to afford all the games I get.

If that is gone, well, I really am thinking hard about what I'll do, I'm not sure :-/

 

[gatti-man]

Because he's buying games from me, and I pay $60 and buy every game on Day 1, that's why. But if I can't sell them to gatti-man, then I'll stop buying them at all.

God, why can't people understand this? The ignorance is outrageous.

Because its a fools gold argument. You look at it myopically . See you don't see you sell it, then he sells it, then it gets sold over and over. The loss for the dev can be staggering to the point where if you bought less new games its not a big deal if they can actually make sales after the first month a game is out.

Also watch who you call ignorant. I'm probably more educated than you and run a business. I have a pretty good idea about costs of business and why this is an issue.

 

[Atomski]

After this period they'll provide deals and price cuts. Second Hand is actually only really worth it in that first few periods/sales. After which the value decreases in comparison to a more reliable first hand copy.

Wut.. the price of the used copy is still below the "deals and pricecuts" people will still buy the cheaper copy.

Why pay 20 dollars for a game when theres a 15 dollars used copy?

 

[androvsky]

Dosnt the 360 typically sell more copys than the PS3 specially for games like COD. (maybe just in the US)

Also Sony must be hurting as they already put online passes in all of their 1st party multiplayer games. So they generally been combating used sales more than MS as I havent seen MS do anything like that with Halo or any other first party games.

There's about 40% more 360's in the US than PS3s, iirc. With the same attach rate, one would expect 40% more CoD sales for the 360, but from what I recall, Black Ops and MW3 sold notably less than 40% more. There was something odd going on with the attach rate even given the stereotype that 360 gamers prefer shooters. Could be the Gold requirement for playing online, piracy, or something else.

On one hand, Sony's been pretty far in front with the online passes since they started with their PSP games. I don't recall if they were the first publisher with an actual online pass, but it's close. On the other hand, I believe they're currently using a previous suppressing used content patent for Vita Cross-Buy and online passes, both without having printed out codes that the buyer has to enter.

 

[Deleted member 20415]

While I think not being able to play used games is ultra shitty, I'm more concerned about not being able to share and borrow games from friends. We still pass around a ton of titles and if there is no provision to allow that, it will be stifling and awful.

 

[pestul]

Good luck getting any shelf space with retailers that sell used games currently..

DD only future is coming, but I don't think it is quite ready yet. This is coming from someone who actually likes steam and DDs.

 

[Karsticles]

This is one piece of technology I'm glad for Sony to have all to itself.

 

[gutterboy44]

Except I can then sell those used games to buy new ones later on. Can't do that with Steam. Without that income, I won't buy the new games.

What is your average loss of value during trade ins? With Gamestops in the US, unless you are buying games day one and returning them within the first few weeks, the depreciation value is horrible. Overtime, I would wager you are losing more money with constant trade ins than buying games when they are heavily discounted like Steam, GMG, GOG, and Amazon.

Edit: I know this is PC v. Console, but the idea being that if the console market place adapts to the same pricing models as PC, you are likely to still save money in the long run and in my opinion, have access to games you may not have played otherwise. As for lending friends games, that is a definite loss. We tend to gift around games., everyone wins.

 

[Corto]

While I think not being able to play used games is ultra shitty, I'm more concerned about not being able to share and borrow games from friends. We still pass around a ton of titles and if there is no provision to allow that, it will be stifling and awful.

We will be able to share our PSN accounts for that effect... We will look back at the PS3 account management system, no region locking physical or digital, as the most consumer friendly console ever. It won't get better than that. Only worse.

 

[see5harp]

Because its a fools gold argument. You look at it myopically . See you don't see you sell it, then he sells it, then it gets sold over and over. The loss for the dev can be staggering to the point where if you bought less new games its not a big deal if they can actually make sales after the first month a game is out.

Also watch who you call ignorant. I'm probably more educated than you and run my own business. I have a pretty good idea about costs of business and why this is an issue.

I think most people understand the idea of reselling a product.

We will be able to share our PSN accounts for that effect... We will look back at the PS3 account management system, no region locking physical or digital, as the most consumer friendly console ever. It won't get better than that. Only worse.

Yea that's never happening again. The whole account sharing thing on PS3 was not their intention at all.

 

[legacyzero]

So what would this do to awesome companies like GAMEFLY? I love Gamefly, and was with them for 4 years.

This is basically why I'm holding off on next gen. Bullshit like this.

 

[YoungHav]

Used game sales are the least of Sony's problems.

 

[gatti-man]

I think most people understand the idea of reselling a product.

Well then the whole "if I can't sell my used games I won't be able to buy as many new" argument falls dead flat on its face doesn't it?

 

[Jburton]

Heard a similar rumour floating around before the launch of the PS3 and have heard a rumour about similar restrictions on the 720.

Nothing new and as a PC gamer this restriction would cause me no bother if it becomes a reality.

 

[Atomski]

Good luck getting any shelf space with retailers that sell used games currently..

DD only future is coming, but I don't think it is quite ready yet. This is coming from someone who actually likes steam and DDs.

If Sony and MS both do this retailers who sell used games will do a 180 and push for non used games sales.. as they will be pretty desperate for business. Unless they can survive on retro games .

 

[grimshawish]

Wut.. the price of the used copy is still below the "deals and pricecuts" people will still buy the cheaper copy.

Why pay 20 dollars for a game when theres a 15 dollars used copy?

Multiple reasons. Reliability is one. Anyway am actually suggesting they'd be closer than that at some point.

 

[Durante]

I'm taking advantage of it as long as I can, because waiting a couple months to get games at $20-30 as opposed to 60 new is what has allowed me to afford all the games I get.

That sounds exactly like Steam/Amazon DD/GMG to me.

If that is gone, well, I really am thinking hard about what I'll do, I'm not sure :-/

See above for an option!

 

[Haunted]

I'd obviously expect that diminished/eliminated resell value to be reflected in the new MSRP.

Right guys?

...right?

 

[Durante]

Just to clarify my position, I'm actually against preventing the resale of games. I just feel like people have already made a deal with the devil, so to speak, by supporting proprietary hardware platforms, so they shouldn't be surprised if something like this comes to pass. You reap what you sow.

 

[Atomski]

I'd obviously expect that diminished/eliminated resell value to be reflected in the new MSRP.

Right guys?

...right?

This consoles we are talking about.. controlled by huge corporations. Think about it..

Be lucky if prices dont go up due to next gen development needs.

 

[benny_a]

That sounds exactly like Steam/Amazon DD/GMG to me.

See above for an option!

Or use this thread if you're in Europe and get close to those prices while still having the option to resell games.

Just to clarify my position, I'm actually against preventing the resale of games. I just feel like people have already made a deal with the devil, so to speak, by supporting proprietary hardware platforms, so they shouldn't be surprised if something like this comes to pass. You reap what you sow.

And then you have people that look down on your pimping of Steam's DRM or GMG's wide ranging variety of DRM.

 

[see5harp]

Well then the whole "if I can't sell my used games I won't be able to buy as many new" argument falls dead flat on its face doesn't it?

Not really. The ability to resell or return a product if you aren't satisfied with it is a part of the purchasing decisions for the majority of people on the planet. This happens in record shops, video stores, book stores all of the world on a daily basis. There is no difference with video games. It's just entertainment. If they want to control their marketplace, they can sell it digitally. I can understand them wanting to charge for online access to servers but I still go to the library. I don't have any sort of guilt when I check out the latest New York Times Bestseller any more than when I play a gamefly copy of Persona 4 for 90 hours and return it.

 

[MrCunningham]

Hadn't companies like Valve already figure this out years ago?

• Purchase A retail copy of the game
• Insert CD key into Steam and shackle it to your account.
• Render disc useless for anyone but yourself making you stuck with it permanently.

All they really have to do is embed the CD key onto the disc and automate the whole process by attaching the key to the players PSN software. It would probably also have to save lock out data locally if the player wants to play offline...

But personally, I think barring the sales of used games is iditic in the end. It will not really push fence sitters to purchase a game anymore at full price than they would used.

 

[73V3N]

Worse than region-locking, hope is not true

 

[Onion_Relish]

Considering how often games bomba and their prices naturally cave in over time, I don't even mind this. If you waited 2 months, borderlands went from 60 to 20 bucks. If you waited one day, homefront went from 60 to 40.

This would most likely be even more pronounced given that second party restrictions would force companies to sell as many games as quickly as humanly possible. Also it would be nice going into a gamestop knowing what you bought is actually new.

 

[dab0ne]

I'm just wondering what kind of media they're going to be putting their games on. I'm sure blu-ray but games coming out for next gen are going to need multiple blu-ray discs (uncharted 3 almost did iirc). It would be bad ass if they had some sort of Solid State cartridge like old school nintendo.

 

[gatti-man]

Not really. The ability to resell or return a product if you aren't satisfied with it is a part of the purchasing decisions for the majority of people on the planet. This happens in record shops, video stores, book stores all of the world on a daily basis. There is no difference with video games. It's just entertainment. If they want to control their marketplace, they can sell it digitally. I can understand them wanting to charge for online access to servers but I still go to the library. I don't have any sort of guilt when I check out the latest New York Times Bestseller any more than when I play a gamefly copy of Persona 4 for 90 hours and return it.

You completely dodged my point and rambled about other goods. Do you want to address my argument? Or branch off into consumer rights?

 

[patientx]

They should research how to make games they make fun again ...

 

[Durante]

And then you have people that look down on your pimping of Steam's DRM or GMG's wide ranging variety of DRM.

I'm not sure what you mean. I've actually argued against the modern PC gamer obsession with Steam multiple times. However, a proprietary software platform controlled by a private person is still far preferable to a fully integrated software/hardware infrastructure controlled by a publicly traded megacorporation. Which is what consoles are.

The only ideal option are DRM-free games which run on an open platform. So far, this was only possible for independent titles, but with kickstarter it's becoming viable for mid-budget games as well. We're getting there.

 

[JCV]

Modern gaming, ladies and gents.
I hate this new "it's expansive to make so we get the right to screw you" mentality. Just make games with fucking smaller budgets and let us play like we always have.

 

[LizardKing]

This sucks. However, I recently walked into a best buy and saw what I wouldn't be surprised they consider to be their future regarding video games. The gaming sections had only about 10-15 new games for each console, which were just the biggest names for the system (Mario, Halo, CoD etc). The entire rest of their gaming department was made up of used games. That was pretty appalling but this is still worse.

 

[dab0ne]

Modern gaming, ladies and gents.
I hate this new "it's expansive to make so we get the right to screw you" mentality. Just make games with fucking smaller budgets and let us play like we always have.

To make some extra money they should do a rental service through PSN. You pay $7 and you can try out the game for 5 days. You like it you can buy it, if not it comes off of your account after that much time. And I don't mean some 60 minute game trial, I mean the whole game.

 

[benny_a]

I'm not sure what you mean. I've actually argued against the modern PC gamer obsession with Steam multiple times. However, a proprietary software platform controlled by a private person is still far preferable to a fully integrated software/hardware infrastructure controlled by a publicly traded megacorporation. Which is what consoles are.

Okay. That's cool then.

But from my perspective lots of games that I'm interested in are now requiring that privately controlled proprietary software platform though.

I'd rather keep my PC free of all that DRM stuff and have a dedicated device that I have no stakes in that plays my media I buy. Then my main device isn't sullied by this. Counter argument to that of course is that could always buy a dedicated Steambox. No difference to me between a 360/PS3/Steambox except that Gaben seems like a cool dude.

The only ideal option are DRM-free games which run on an open platform. So far, this was only possible for independent titles, but with kickstarter it's becoming viable for mid-budget games as well. We're getting there.

That is the absolute best.

serious question: why dont PC gamers ever complain about no used games?

Price of entry I guess. If you buy a lot of games at very extreme sales (75%+) then it doesn't matter.

 

[cpp_is_king]

serious question: why dont PC gamers ever complain about no used games?

 

[test_account]

To make some extra money they should do a rental service through PSN. You pay $7 and you can try out the game for 5 days. You like it you can buy it, if not it comes off of your account after that much time. And I don't mean some 60 minute game trial, I mean the whole game.

I think they might end up losing money on that. Almost every game can be beaten within 5 days, then people could "buy" the game for $7. It might work for games that are 2+ years old though.

They should research how to make games they make fun again ...

They already did that. Fun is subjective.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

If the next gen gets rid of blatant abuse of DLC, sells games that are truly finished, allows people to play online without online passes, and game prices never go higher than $40, then I am all for getting rid of used game sales.