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Sony outlines a long term roadmap for Playstation tech: 8K, 300fps, 3D chips and cats
- Thread starter gofreak
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Pai Pai Master
Banned
PS4 will probably support a 4k-capable blu-ray drive and upscale existing BDs to 4k, but I think 4k gaming will be a PS5 thing.
If Sony's specifically mentioning 4k/300fps as a goal for down the line, I hope there's a solid chance they're going to try to standardize 1080p/60fps for next generation. They can't meet such a lofty goal without moving along on a stepping stone like that.
If Sony's specifically mentioning 4k/300fps as a goal for down the line, I hope there's a solid chance they're going to try to standardize 1080p/60fps for next generation. They can't meet such a lofty goal without moving along on a stepping stone like that.
Unlikely.
They have been able to successfully publish core and casual games without any problems, I don't see why that would change in the near future.
Except they have been doing more and more to ease development.
Their developers share their tech (with 1st and 3rd parties) and they even have their own multiplatform engine.
On top of that, if the Vita is anything to go by, they are taking more and more developer's advice when it comes to console development.
If he's looking around at work on stacked chips, a lot of it currently may be coming in 28nm flavours. It may not necessarily represent their target process... data re. yields on their target may not really be even available yet.
The mention of 28nm might give a hint at whose work they're looking at, though. Aren't AMD and Intel skipping 28nm, or did I pick that up wrong? IBM has been saying their (stacked) Power8 chips will arrive on 28nm or 22nm so perhaps he's been looking at their work... who else might be a candidate there?
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Yes, the obvious path Sony would take would not be dumbing down their aspirations for hardware, but to make more efforts for development on that hardware to be easier for first and third parties. I think we saw plenty of examples this gen of developers closer to Sony being able to prove that the PS3 was the most technically advanced console of the generation. However, that doesn't matter when third parties are struggling to produce multiplatform games on par with the 360 versions. If SCE is able to provide more resources to make developing for their unique hardware easier, every game could potentially outshine all other versions and that would actually be noticeable.
Right now it's kind of like an echo chamber; the only games on PS3 that look much better than anything else are the Sony-only games that sell to Sony-only fans. They're not really doing anything for Sony other than making PS3 owners love their PS3s more.
Right now it's kind of like an echo chamber; the only games on PS3 that look much better than anything else are the Sony-only games that sell to Sony-only fans. They're not really doing anything for Sony other than making PS3 owners love their PS3s more.
Sony's (at least verbal) commitment to core games is the most important to me. They're the last stronghold on consoles and pretty much the only thing keeping part of me tied to consoles at all. They have the experience to have great balance with both sides they just need to learn how to do it in a modern world.
I'm just scared that they change to the way Microsoft changed to in 2009 where basically the only AAA games that were aimed at me that was published by them was Halo: Reach and Gears of War 3.
Sony OTOH had a much higher amount of games I was interested in in the same timeframe.
And Microsoft is pretty successful with their shifted focus.
Technical prowess is less important than doing something interesting. Squeezing all they wanted into the PS3 hurt them, as did launching late. If they release yet another $600 system a year late it's probably not going to matter what their dev tools are and whether it supports 4K.
perfectnight
Banned
Awesome. I'm ready.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
This is very true but Sony's showing no indication of tempering their ambition. Vita's proven they are interested in taking steps to make more cost-effective hardware that still kicks the shit out of their competition, though. I don't think Sony's stupid enough to launch another console that's priced $200-300 higher than their competition. I certainly wouldn't support it, at least. But my argument is that their philosophy of having the most powerful console didn't work out for them this gen, and rather than shooting for the middle ground or a less powerful console overall, they will instead make more effort to support developers struggling with their hardware.
Very interesting article because we're not talking about rumors.
So basically PS4 will be based on a SOC at 28nm. Rumors suggested the same thing for Xbox next.
And as I said back then the SOC solution means that we won't get state of the art performance in the next consoles. It can still be very powerful but it's nowhere near the power of having two saperate chips at the same die area. The positve thing is that it won't be very expensive.
Second thing it's clear that control interface will get a lot of attention. Based on this article I fully expect the PS4 to integrate classic controls with a touch pad wih different levels of pressure.
So basically PS4 will be based on a SOC at 28nm. Rumors suggested the same thing for Xbox next.
And as I said back then the SOC solution means that we won't get state of the art performance in the next consoles. It can still be very powerful but it's nowhere near the power of having two saperate chips at the same die area. The positve thing is that it won't be very expensive.
Second thing it's clear that control interface will get a lot of attention. Based on this article I fully expect the PS4 to integrate classic controls with a touch pad wih different levels of pressure.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
8kx4k? Is such a thing even possible?
I'll be there day 1 for the cats.
I'll be there day 1 for the cats.
BruiserBear
Banned
Yeah, they started doing that stuff a couple years after the PS3 launched, when their first party teams had a chance to learn the hardware well. It was the equivalency of putting a bandage on a big wound.
I hope they do take a lot of input, and apply it, because all this talk of "custom" ideas is not a good sign. The next Xbox will likely be something very derivative of a modern gaming PC, and it's going to be very easy to work on. If the PS4 is more difficult to work on than the Xbox720 I'm afraid we'll see another repeat of this gen, with shoddy multiplatform ports.
bgassassin
Member
Makes sense looking at the rumors of them having both an AMD CPU and GPU.
Don't know if I'd read anything definitive into the 'system on a chip' business just yet.
He talks elsewhere about "an architecture where the bulk of processing will still sit on the main board, with CPU and graphics added to by more digital signal processing and some configurable logic. - which sort of suggests a more traditional discrete approach for those components.
Let's remember that Cell was referred to as a 'system on a chip' design too...
That said, a design which brought the CPU and GPU onto one die for reasons of latency could indeed be on the cards. But I think we need a bit more to go on.
mysteriousmage09
Member
Good news.
So why own a 3D tv? I play all my PS3 3D games in 3D. CG Christmas movies like Christmas Carol are spectacular in 3D.
Projectors are already in the 8K x 4K domain. TV's one day will reach there [Cable channels do not even do true 1080p yet as a norm so who knows]. I just started posting I don't even know how big this thread is lol. All this was probably already said.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Sony! Focus on making money now so that you can afford to get to this stage!
PS3 can actually go above 1080p but that would be just for XMB viewing or something that's very very basic in graphical performance.
Now if you link them together like the GT5 demo then 6k was reached I think.
Imo things are getting pretty indicative of where the industry is heading for the next gen.
Both Xbox next and PS4 should be pretty big jumps compared to their predecessors but don't expect state of the art performance compared with the latest PC parts of 2013 becuase price/costs are important and need to be under control. It's the PSVita philosophy basically. SOC also means that the mainboard will be cheaper because it won't feature a complex CPU/GPU bus. Hopefully we'll get a 4GB memory pool with enough bandwidth (DDR4?).
A lot of attention will be given to controls. Different type of sensors, touch pads...those are the things we should expect.
Proelite
Member
But discrete stacked components is far better than SOC when it comes to performance. The only benefits of SOC is die size and cost reduction. Hopefully Sony will devote 500 m^2 to the GPU and CPU again. SOC only allows for 300m^2.
Yeah, although per my response to Elios, I think I'd need a bit more to go on. They've used that kind of terminology in the past wrt CPUs and still ended up with discrete cpu/gpu. We'll see though. This 3D stacking and all that could lead them to a single die solution.
In light of the the info in the third article, and after sifting through it all, I wish I could rename the thread...there are some pretty direct/concrete hints in there re. PS4 afterall.
iamshadowlark
Banned
DSPs as in the SPEs?
He wasn't lying just not being technically truthful. Plus this was from a interview he did in Japanese. For all we know it could have been a hypothetical question he was asked. All GPU's can do 120fps. When geometry and all the effects are added it's a different story. I think the usual internet trolls ran away with the story. Ken Kuturagi is a very accomplished engineer and I doubt he expected PS3 games to do 120fps at full HD without a hitch.
Bill Gates said some off the charts shit when they demoed that girl and robot. 360 can do Toy Story games +. So lets be fair
.I also see the usual forum posters saying BS at 300fps when the article stressed this isn't PS4 tech but a roadmap for future endeavors.
300fps is really not needed as far as I know.
SPEs are DSPs in a sense.
If we go by the SOC theory at this point I wouldn't be suprised if indeed the CPU was an optimized Cell with 32 SPEs and 2 to 4 PPUs.
Japan won't let them fail.
iamshadowlark
Banned
32 is a bit high though right? I know Rambus has this TB bandwidth and all but damn.
specialguy
Banned
This sounds like a bunch of gobbledegook and most of it not remotely feasible anytime soon. Very scattershot and no clear vision either.
Has Sony not changed at all since Kutaragi? I can only assume it's a bad translation and, most of what is written wasn't meant in the context it's implied in.
Otherwise this thing will take so long to come out it will be competing with Xbox 5. 8kX4k at 300 FPS? I mean, really.
Has Sony not changed at all since Kutaragi? I can only assume it's a bad translation and, most of what is written wasn't meant in the context it's implied in.
Otherwise this thing will take so long to come out it will be competing with Xbox 5. 8kX4k at 300 FPS? I mean, really.
IIRC, before E3 05, Kutaragi did a presentation where he talked about realtime data off the network as being a next step for games - that it would introduce time, 'the 4th dimension' to gaming. E.g. in a racing game, getting up-to-the-minute race results in-game, realtime weather data from the network feeding into track conditions etc. That's all he meant, but the Krazy Ken meme jumped on it
Yup and GT5 does this.
DragonKnight
Member
Late to the thread but the 7 to 10 years part catches my eye. PS3 was released in 2006, right? PS4 is definitely dropping in 2013 then.
Edit: Read more and maybe 2014 is viable then. Damn.
Edit: Read more and maybe 2014 is viable then. Damn.
Why post nonsense? Just ask questions.
iamshadowlark
Banned
That's what the PS3 was supposed to have at one point
Its all so funny because I was just arguing with a few guys on here that basically assured me that sony would abandon cell completely and go full AMD or some shit.
Not really that high, if you think that SPEs are somewhat similar to shaders and we have hundreds of those in modern GPUs, Kutaragi originally wanted 4PPUs and 32SPEs in the PS3 and IBM thought he was crazy LOL LOL
Btw effectively having the 32SPEs, 2to4 PPUs Cell as the CPU part of a 28nm SOC would ake a lot of sense, it's small enough, it's good jump from the PS3 CPU in terms of performance (in the 5X-10X range), there is little R&D, it keep backwards compatibility with no added costs and it allows for a quick learning curve for developers.
We'll see though...
Pai Pai Master
Banned
If you actually read the OP you'd know that this is not some guy telling us what Sony's planning for PS4. It's a technological roadmap, the kind of things they are hoping to achieve down the line with PS4, PS4 peripherals, PS5 and so on. Some of the things they're planning may be ready in time for PS4's production, some times can be achieved through peripherals later in the life of the console, and some technology they want to introduce won't be ready until PS5 or later.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Not sure what segment of the "core" is interested in yet another round of novelties that wear off after the first year or two. Can't remember the last time I played a game that even used Sixaxis, let alone used it well. Couldn't care less about the Move, if I wanted that crap I would have bought a Wii. And now he's aiming for, let's see, augmented reality? Lame. Haptics? No thanks, I've used the Novint Falcon. Another axis of accelerometer? I'm sure developers will just have a field day with that, can't wait to download the one $5 game that uses it well and then forget it exists. Measuring my vital signs? Get out of here with that crap, who's asking for it? Aiming for 8K/4K? Yeah that's exactly what we need after struggling so hard with even 1080p.
Stuff like a good SDK and an improved architecture? Now we're talking. I really wish they would just refine the technology that already exists and even prune away some of the technology that isn't well-used. Even if it's just for one generation. Just chill out with trying to do wild and wacky new ideas, turn around and put as much effort into perfecting what we've already got, maybe even introduce a new thing here or there if it's genuinely relevant and useful, and then go back to pushing forward if you have to
iamshadowlark
Banned
Well that stuff seems to be extra ambitions they have. Alot of which may never see the light of day as what happened with the PS3. I doubt sony would bog down the "PS4" by raising the price with this stuff in the box, especially when they talk of aiming for an architecture capable of 4k.
NemesisPrime
Banned
My bullshit detector just exploded.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
This?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-n-q7o8Z8I&feature=related
Honestly i cant see much use for it, unless its used for something like skyrim but effects like that dont happen over night for simulation you need a world that players are going to be involved with for 3 month plus on a constant basis which is pretty exclusively MMO's and in that case it means your MMO's will look like crap after a long play time.
yup. I'll take one of those at a relatively affordable cost, and then spend as much as possible on a massive GPU.
And a nice flexible HDMI tx that you can update down the line to support 4k/8k/48fps 3D, whatever comes along.
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