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[Beer Monkey]

PS3 never has to go online.

Unless you want to play Bionic Commando Rearmed.

 

[lostones]

I hope both Microsoft and Sony get a cut from used game sales. The industry would be a LOT healthier.

You're telling me that people would give up on gaming just because they have to pay an extra fee on top of their used game purchase??

I wonder how many people out there only buy used games I'm assuming its a lot if they primarily buy at GameStop.

 

[Orca]

These are the blights on the videogame industry:

- Dev costs spiralling out of control due to publisher mismanagement.

- A complete lack of innovation in most genres, as every publisher tries to get their own Call of Duty. Too much risk to innovate, due to previously mentioned mismanagement.

- Aiming for short term profit to appease shareholders rather than any meaningful effort to make long term plans

- Ripping off consumers with overpriced DLC, online passes and used game limitations

- A stranglehold on the gaming media, rendering the majority of them as meaningless shills with no balls.


all in all, the industry is a blight on itself. Consumers shouldn't have to suffer and give up their rights because gaming publishers are a bunch of greedy, mismanaged, short term profit seeking, controlling cunts.

To be fair there also appears to be a new (or at least far more sizable) segment of consumers that only buy AAA games, and only those that garner extremely high reviews. There's little room for B games anymore.

 

[zeopower6]

Look, i'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass. I've been saying it for a while now. If I was pulling it out of my ass I would have been banned so, so, so long ago. I have friends at Sony working on the system. They don't know each other... yet they both described the same system to me. Is this some sort of crazy elaborate prank? Candid internet camera?


Seriously. This isn't me speculating. And you aren't allowed to post here if you give out bullshit leaks... and i've leaked my fair amount of shit and i'm still here.

I wonder just how this is going to be explained to the consumers, tbh. It sounds extremely confusing. :|

 

[GQman2121]

I hope both Microsoft and Sony get a cut from used game sales. The industry would be a LOT healthier.

You're telling me that people would give up on gaming just because they have to pay an extra fee on top of their used game purchase??

Yes. Why do you give a fuck about these corporations? And what makes you think anything would be healthier because of it? Because they're telling you that? They'll just drum up another reason once no one buy's the next bloated piece of shit they produce.

 

[LiquidSolid]

Shame on you for suggesting that games, which can cost upwards of a hundred million to produce, are equivalent to used cars, where dealerships get tons of business through routine service and financing. Videogames do not have such luxury. The other industries (CD, Books) cost nowhere near as much to produce.

And I'm not suggesting that used games be BLOCKED....just that publishers get a kickback on every used-game transaction.

What's so unreasonable about that?

Why should they get a kickback? I bought it with my money, so it should be my property, shouldn't it?

I like how you acknowledge how absurdly large videogame budgets are nowadays and yet your solution is "let's give them more money." You know what mine is? STOP SPENDING SO MUCH FUCKING MONEY YOU IDIOTS! Short and sweet, right?

Seriously though, if developers/publishers are spending well beyond their means then they have no-one to blame but themselves if they fail, not used games, piracy or whatever other stupid excuse they make up.

 

[IHaveCandy]

To be fair there also appears to be a new (or at least far more sizable) segment of consumers that only buy AAA games, and only those that garner extremely high reviews. There's little room for B games anymore.

It's only a problem when the B games try to act and fund themselves like they are AAA games.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

My opinion is that the less money people get selling games the less new games people buy. A NYU study sees the same thing happening.

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/05/nyu-used-games-study/

The study is bullshit.

GameStop has HUGE operating costs -- they have to pay rent for all their locations, pay for tons of employees, and on top of all of this they still have large profits and margins for their used game business.

Take all the used game transactions that occur, funnel that back into game development, and you'd see healthier publishing conditions that would result in more games being produced, resulting in more competition amongst publishers, resulting in lowered costs for content.

Besides -- I'm not even arguing against BLOCKING used game sales, only allowing publishers to get a KICKBACK from those transactions...in other words, these people selling their games would still be getting money to put towards new games.

I also believe that the vast majority of people that buy used games PRIMARILY buy used games, with new games being the odd exception. Every time I've walked into GameStop someone is either selling their games, or buying a used game. The person buying new is an exception.

 

[IHaveCandy]

The study is bullshit.

GameStop has HUGE operating costs -- they have to pay rent for all their locations, pay for tons of employees, and on top of all of this they still have large profits and margins for their used game business.

Take all the used game transactions that occur, funnel that back into game development, and you'd see healthier publishing conditions that would result in more games being produced, resulting in more competition amongst publishers, resulting in lowered costs for content.

Out of curiosity, what are your opinion of Trickle-Down Economics?

 

[GQman2121]

My opinion is that the less money people get selling games the less new games people buy. A NYU study sees the same thing happening.

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/05/nyu-used-games-study/

I don't need an NYU study to tell me that I'm going to be cautious about spending money on games next gen if there's DRM in place preventing me from taking a chance on something I might be on the fence about.

Your game better build hype and look like fucking The Last Of Us for two years if you want my funds next gen. That's my personal DRM reality check for these asshole publishers.

 

[revisionup]

The study is bullshit.

GameStop has HUGE operating costs -- they have to pay rent for all their locations, pay for tons of employees, and on top of all of this they still have large profits and margins for their used game business.

Take all the used game transactions that occur, funnel that back into game development, and you'd see healthier publishing conditions that would result in more games being produced, resulting in more competition amongst publishers, resulting in lowered costs for content.

I just don't see the argument for every used game sale would be a new game sale if we got rid of used games. I buy used and new games, the used are mostly older titles that go for 10-15$ max at Gamestop. If they suddenly stop having used games, and I was expected to pay 60$ for a game that old, I probably wouldn't do it; and for a lot of used games I end up buying newer titles in the series day 1.

 

[Rich!]

So, I made my own game.

It's a success, and it sells 50k copies. I get £1m profit. Sweet.

I then use that £1m to hire a team and make a new game. I spend the money on ridiculous voice acting, unnecessary cutscenes and tons of AAA level shit. Oh shut, I need more financing. Better play up to core groups and focus testing to ensure it pays off.

Wait what's that? I now have to sell an almost unattainable amount of copies worldwide to barely break even?

I know, lets make it so that every single person who buys my AAA multi million dollar disaster has to pay ME an extra cost whenever they want to sell their copy! Brilliant! That'll make up for my terrible business decisions!

...or you know, I could just have better business plans that don't require fucking customers up the ass just to fix a severely broken industry that cannot properly budget itself. It's ridiculous.

 

[famousmortimer]

I wonder just how this is going to be explained to the consumers, tbh. It sounds extremely confusing. :|

I don't know and I hope we never know. What I have been told for months is that they hadn't committed to using this system, they were arguing the merits internally. OMGWTFBBQ, another trusted leaker around here, said he heard that EA signed the exclusivity deal (presumably Mirrors edge 2 and respawn's game + early DLC) because MS would agree to anti-used DRM and Sony was not ready to. Sony saw the reaction that MS got in the aftermath of the xb1 reveal and that was pushing them even more towards dropping their system. Which is why I made the thread... to get people online to tweet directly to people like yoshida to give them a little pat on the back in the right direction.


It does sound confusing and unfriendly, especially if you can't use it on a friends system. I honestly don't understand how it works. But they designed it to be offline from the start because they are a far more worldwide console than MS and have penetration in countries with shitty internet.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Why should they get a kickback? I bought it with my money, so it should be my property, shouldn't it?

I like how you acknowledge how absurdly large videogame budgets are nowadays and yet your solution is "let's give them more money." You know what mine is? STOP SPENDING SO MUCH FUCKING MONEY YOU IDIOTS! Short and sweet, right?

Seriously though, if developers/publishers are spending well beyond their means then they have no-one to blame but themselves if they fail, not used games, piracy or whatever other stupid excuse they make up.

Does the person that buys a movie ticket have a RIGHT to see that movie again and/or SELL that movie ticket to someone else after it's been consumed?

 

[famousmortimer]

Does the person that buys a movie ticket have a RIGHT to see that movie again and/or SELL that movie ticket to someone else after it's been consumed?

In what universe is a movie ticket and a videogame disc the same thing?

If you want to compare movies... can I sell my blu ray of Big Momma's House 6 when i'm done with it? Of course I can!

 

[GQman2121]

The study is bullshit.

GameStop has HUGE operating costs -- they have to pay rent for all their locations, pay for tons of employees, and on top of all of this they still have large profits and margins for their used game business.

Take all the used game transactions that occur, funnel that back into game development, and you'd see healthier publishing conditions that would result in more games being produced, resulting in more competition amongst publishers, resulting in lowered costs for content.

Besides -- I'm not even arguing against BLOCKING used game sales, only allowing publishers to get a KICKBACK from those transactions...in other words, these people selling their games would still be getting money to put towards new games.

I also believe that the vast majority of people that buy used games PRIMARILY buy used games, with new games being the odd exception. Every time I've walked into GameStop someone is either selling their games, or buying a used game. The person buying new is an exception.

You're living on fantasy island if you believe this shit. The rich will get richer and that's all that will happen. Devs will still work under contact and be lucky to hold on to their jobs once their current project goes gold.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I hope both Microsoft and Sony get a cut from used game sales. The industry would be a LOT healthier.

You're telling me that people would give up on gaming just because they have to pay an extra fee on top of their used game purchase??

There is simply no evidence that changing the second hand market would make the industry healthier. How do you even define health? Used games have existed for the entire life of games and the industry has enjoyed 30 years of massive growth.

It's not about people giving up on games. It is simply about what monkeying with supply does to demand.

 

[baphomet]

Does the person that buys a movie ticket have a RIGHT to see that movie again and/or SELL that movie ticket to someone else after it's been consumed?

If you BOUGHT the movie, then yes, you do. Your argument makes no sense.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Besides -- I'm not even arguing against BLOCKING used game sales, only allowing publishers to get a KICKBACK from those transactions...in other words, these people selling their games would still be getting money to put towards new games.

I also believe that the vast majority of people that buy used games PRIMARILY buy used games, with new games being the odd exception. Every time I've walked into GameStop someone is either selling their games, or buying a used game. The person buying new is an exception.

The publishers that pushing for these changes aren't looking to get a simple "kickback". The whole point of these practices is to pigeonhole used games buyers into buying new.

 

[famousmortimer]

And, for the record, I don't give a shit about gamestop. I hate the place just like everyone else on the planet.


What I'm arguing for is my right to sell the game myself. Trading in games at gamestop is dumb. They don't give you dick. Sell it to a friend or another human through craigslist... you get more money, they get it for cheaper than gamestop - you're both happy. And the developers don't deserve a cut of that because I OWN THE DISC. You can sell what you own.

 

[ConradCervantes]

This is a joke post right? Those are just as obtuse and circular as Microsoft's statements. If Sony allowed something that Microsoft didn't why wouldn't they release it as a talking point and edge over their competitor? Why would they announce they are "listening" to gamers about always online/ DRM if they had already actually explicitly confirmed their stance?

Believe what you want but taking this as gospel is just asking for disappointment later on. Both consoles feature set is in flux.

Absolute horseshit if he was banned for this.

 

[Rich!]

Does the person that buys a movie ticket have a RIGHT to see that movie again and/or SELL that movie ticket to someone else after it's been consumed?

Ridiculous.

If I have a cinema ticket, it's for the right to sit in the auditorium and use their services. Technically, the film is irrelevant.

if I purchased the film itself, I can resell it whatever way I see fit.

 

[LiquidSolid]

Does the person that buys a movie ticket have a RIGHT to see that movie again and/or SELL that movie ticket to someone else after it's been consumed?

That's the dumbest comparison I've ever seen.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Does the person that buys a movie ticket have a RIGHT to see that movie again and/or SELL that movie ticket to someone else after it's been consumed?

My games magically stop working after I use them once now?

 

[famousmortimer]

Should this restriction carry over to hardware as well, sawyer? Should I have to pay sony a cut if I sell my PS3?


If I dig my NES out of my parents basement should I write a check to Nintendo?

 

[Brad Grenz]

Comparing games to a movie ticket is ludicrous. Pretending the disc is like a used ticket is hilrarious. The game still works, the ticket doesn't. The game can still be played after the credits role. Buying a game doesn't entitle you to a single play through. You play it for as short or as long as you want to. And if someone wanted to use your "ticket" to play the game they can. Game companies have to make complicated and intrusive systems to tell if your "ticket" has been used before, movie theatres just look to see if it is ripped. The two couldn't be further than the truth.

None of that has any bearing on my argument. I didn't say the experiences were the same, I said that the way the value is assigned is the same. In both cases you pay for the right to an experience, whatever form that experience takes.

PS3 never has to go online.

Unless you want to play Bionic Commando Rearmed.

It's a download only title. To get it in the first place you have to go online.

The study is bullshit.

GameStop has HUGE operating costs -- they have to pay rent for all their locations, pay for tons of employees, and on top of all of this they still have large profits and margins for their used game business.

GameStop is hugely over extended for a retail business. There is no reason my town needs two locations in the same mall. They could close half their stores and service the same customer base almost seamlessly.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

In what universe is a movie ticket and a videogame disc the same thing?

If you want to compare movies... can I sell my blu ray of Big Momma's House 6 when i'm done with it? Of course I can!

They're not, that wasn't my point.

My point was to say that it's certainly within Microsoft or Sony's RIGHTS as PLATFORM HOLDERS to restrict the second hand distribution of their (or their partner's) content.

Videogames are consumable forms of entertainment that do not lose their intrinsic value (so long as the disc isn't damaged) when sold second hand (unlike a car).

The business models are evolving, but GameStop's rise this past decade has certainly extracted a huge percentage of the gaming business and it doesn't contribute anything of tangible value to the industry itself.

Should this restriction carry over to hardware as well, sawyer? Should I have to pay sony a cut if I sell my PS3?


If I dig my NES out of my parents basement should I write a check to Nintendo?

No, because the business model doesn't revolve around making money off of hardware. It's generally been a net-loser in order to profit from software sales.

 

[lostones]

If there's NO sharing games sony will have a nightmare on there hands, they have to atleast allow licenses like MS arguably is.

 

[baphomet]

They're not, that wasn't my point.

My point was to say that it's certainly within Microsoft or Sony's RIGHTS as PLATFORM HOLDERS to restrict the second hand distribution of their (or their partner's) content.

Videogames are consumable forms of entertainment that do not lose their intrinsic value (so long as the disc isn't damaged) when sold second hand (unlike a car).

The business models are evolving, but GameStop's rise this past decade has certainly extracted a huge percentage of the gaming business and it doesn't contribute anything of tangible value to the industry itself.

Actually no, the first sale doctrine basically says what you're claiming isnt legal.

 

[Rich!]

What I find absolutely hilarious are the corporate apologists who parade the blight of gamestop on the industry.

gamestop, gamestop, gamestop. Always with the gamestop. Guess what? Gamestop isn't the only store in the entire world. Guess what? America isn't the only country in the world. Guess what? I can sell my games to anyone I wish, without the need for a store such as gamestop.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Ridiculous.

If I have a cinema ticket, it's for the right to sit in the auditorium and use their services. Technically, the film is irrelevant.

Movie theaters don't care if you just want to come in and hang out. They will let you play arcade games and buy all the food you want to eat in their lounge area. The only value the ticket has is to view a movie.

 

[famousmortimer]

They're not, that wasn't my point.

My point was to say that it's certainly within Microsoft or Sony's RIGHTS as PLATFORM HOLDERS to restrict the second hand distribution of their (or their partner's) content.

Videogames are consumable forms of entertainment that do not lose their intrinsic value (so long as the disc isn't damaged) when sold second hand (unlike a car).

The business models are evolving, but GameStop's rise this past decade has certainly extracted a huge percentage of the gaming business and it doesn't contribute anything of tangible value to the industry itself.

Kinda like blu ray videogames and blu ray movies... what's the difference there? Or why can i sell a book after I read it? Or a CD or record or tape or 8track after I buy it. These are all consumable media in which you can sell the thing you own when you're done.

 

[Rich!]

Movie theaters don't care if you just want to come in and hang out. They will let you play arcade games and buy all the food you want to eat in their lounge area. The only value the ticket has is to view a movie.

Yeah, try that on with my local cinema.

No ticket, no entry. If you fuck around in the foyer without buying anything, you're kicked out.

 

[DaBoss]

While I don't think the PS4 will have always-online, I wouldn't put any weight on the "we never considered it..." part. Otherwise, great OP.

 

[Menelaus]

I can buy a copy of Photoshop, use it, and sell it. But first I have to unregister the software with Adobe and transfer the the license to the person I'm selling it to.

Not anymore for future versions, they moved exclusively to a cloud-based subscription about two weeks ago.

 

[baphomet]

Movie theaters don't care if you just want to come in and hang out. They will let you play arcade games and buy all the food you want to eat in their lounge area. The only value the ticket has is to view a movie.

That's not true in the least. Every place I go to takes your ticket before you can even enter the lobby. And I see movies every week in numerous theaters.

 

[Majukun]

It's a brand new generation, both systems are starting from zero marketshare. There's no way in hell that PS4 would ever capture 50% of the market in the first place if the biggest third party publishers like Activision and EA snubbed the console.

Publishers hold all the power here, if they really wanted to play hardball Sony would have pretty much no choice but to cave in to their demands. Sony has always relied on third parties, they can't support an entire platform by themselves.

players have the ball,not publishers.
publishers go where money is,and money comes from our pockets/wallets,and nowhere else.

Also,sony has largely improved is first and second party production in the last years..i don't know if these are enough to support a console (even nintendo nowadays can't support an entire platform),but they are not "relying on third parties" anymore)

 

[famousmortimer]

What I find absolutely hilarious are the corporate apologists who parade the blight of gamestop on the industry.

gamestop, gamestop, gamestop. Always with the gamestop. Guess what? Gamestop isn't the only store in the entire world. Guess what? America isn't the only country in the world. Guess what? I can sell my games to anyone I wish, without the need for a store such as gamestop.

Agreed. And while Sawyer is correct in that Gamestop has grown in the last decade it was a bit disingenuous because it made it sound like there was no used market before that. There's been a used market in videogames since the 80s. When I was a kid (i'm 36....) there was funcoland, EB, Babbages... all sorts of places to trade in games and buy used games. This isn't a new phenomenon in the industry at all.

 

[hodayathink]

And, for the record, I don't give a shit about gamestop. I hate the place just like everyone else on the planet.


What I'm arguing for is my right to sell the game myself. Trading in games at gamestop is dumb. They don't give you dick. Sell it to a friend or another human through craigslist... you get more money, they get it for cheaper than gamestop - you're both happy. And the developers don't deserve a cut of that because I OWN THE DISC. You can sell what you own.

Just because you can sell the disc doesn't mean it's their responsibility to make sure the disc retains its value. You can still sell the disc with whatever system Microsoft is cooking up, it's just worth less because of the money you will have to pay to reactivate it. It's this an anti-consumer practice? Yes, it is. But they haven't taken away your right to sell what you own.

And if you're looking at the legality of this, you need to stop looking at games as media (CD, DVD, Blu-Ray) and start looking at games as software, which is what they actually are. You don't have the ability to sell the copy of Windows you bought after you've registered it without jumping through hoops, or old copies of software like AutoCAD or Visual Studio.

 

[Rich!]

Back when I was younger, we used to trade and sell our SNES and mega drive games at school. Would never have got into numerous series without that exposure.

of course, all of that is being taken away now, because the industry is spiralling out of control and needs to claw back every...last...penny...

it's a fucking shame.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Even when there's no way left to spin, you can always say they're lying!

Remember when the Sixaxis didn't have rumble because its motion control and rumble functionality couldn't work in the same controller? Yeah.

Don't pretend you're unaware of Sony's historical problems with being truthful.

 

[famousmortimer]

Just because you can sell the disc doesn't mean it's their responsibility to make sure the disc retains its value. You can still sell the disc with whatever system Microsoft is cooking up, it's just worth less because of the money you will have to pay to reactivate it. It's this an anti-consumer practice? Yes, it is. But they haven't taken away your right to sell what you own.

And if you're looking at the legality of this, you need to stop looking at games as media (CD, DVD, Blu-Ray) and start looking at games as software, which is what they actually are. You don't have the ability to sell the copy of Windows you bought after you've registered it without jumping through hoops, or old copies of software like Photoshop or AutoCAD or Visual Studio.

And I'm not planning on taking them to court. I'm expressing that I don't enjoy anti-consumer practices.

 

[Uno Venova]

Back when I was younger, we used to trade and sell our SNES and mega drive games at school. Would never have got into numerous series without that exposure.

of course, all of that is being taken away now, because the industry is spiralling out of control and needs to claw back every...last...penny...

it's a fucking shame.

Essentially gamers need to get punished for the drawbacks of AAA development and decisions they have no say in.

Sounds like something I want to support!

 

[Brad Grenz]

That's not true in the least. Every place I go to takes your ticket before you can even enter the lobby. And I see movies every week in numerous theaters.

It may vary location to location depending about how worried they are about people sneaking into theaters. In any case, the movie for actual tickets goes almost entirely to the movie studios so it's completely absurd to suggest the price of admission is just about using a theater's facilities and not about the right to view the film.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Essentially gamers need to get punished for the drawbacks of AAA development and decisions they have no say in.

Yep, decisions the publishers and developers (mostly publishers) refuse to make. So, we all have to suffer.

 

[baphomet]

Essentially gamers need to get punished for the drawbacks of AAA development and decisions they have no say in.

If you go by some of the posts in this thread some people are lining up to take it with a smile on their face.

 

[lostones]

Agreed. And while Sawyer is correct in that Gamestop has grown in the last decade it was a bit disingenuous because it made it sound like there was no used market before that. There's been a used market in videogames since the 80s. When I was a kid (i'm 36....) there was funcoland, EB, Babbages... all sorts of places to trade in games and buy used games. This isn't a new phenomenon in the industry at all.

yea it's not a new phenomenon but game stop is 10x worse then EB Babbage etc. when it comes to used games. eb babbages funcoland when i was growing up were in select locations and rarely had their own stores outside of malls. gamestop on the other hand doubled the size of the company and has became a force behind used games. anytime i go into their store( i rarely do) they ALWAYS try to convince me to buy games used to "save" money. I can imagine how many less fortunate individuals they scam by helping them save 3 bucks.

 

[baphomet]

It may vary location to location depending about how worried they are about people sneaking into theaters. In any case, the movie for actual tickets goes almost entirely to the movie studios so it's completely absurd to suggest the price of admission is just about using a theater's facilities and not about the right to view the film.

These are cinema bars. They make their money off of food and alcohol and you still can't go in without a ticket. Not to mention the 3 AMC theaters also won't let you in without a ticket. I've never seen one that has been different in any of the places I've lived.

yea it's not a new phenomenon but game stop is 10x worse then EB Babbage etc. when it comes to used games. eb babbages funcoland when i was growing up were in select locations and rarely had their own stores outside of malls. gamestop on the other hand doubled the size of the company and has became a force behind used games. anytime i go into their store( i rarely do) they ALWAYS try to convince me to buy games used to "save" money. I can imagine how many less fortunate individuals they scam by helping them save 3 bucks.

Rose tinted glasses. All those places made their money by their used games too. They also pushed them just like GameStop does now.

 

[lostones]

Back when I was younger, we used to trade and sell our SNES and mega drive games at school. Would never have got into numerous series without that exposure.

of course, all of that is being taken away now, because the industry is spiralling out of control and needs to claw back every...last...penny...

it's a fucking shame.

thankfully they aren't trying to take used games away completely. next generation i may have to exit though if its full DD with no kind of rewards.

 

[Night_Trekker]

If you go by some of the posts in this thread some people are lining up to take it with a smile on their face.

bro whats wrong? not excited to play the best games coming exclusively for your Xbox One™ console?

yea it's not a new phenomenon but game stop is 10x worse then EB Babbage etc. when it comes to used games. eb babbages funcoland when i was growing up were in select locations and rarely had their own stores outside of malls. gamestop on the other hand doubled the size of the company and has became a force behind used games. anytime i go into their store( i rarely do) they ALWAYS try to convince me to buy games used to "save" money. I can imagine how many less fortunate individuals they scam by helping them save 3 bucks.

I laughed out loud. Those poor, poor people!