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[Curufinwe]

I may be wrong, but I do believe there is substantial difference between a court ordered search and a computer repair place. Willingly giving someone something is substantially different than being forced to surrender it.

I guarantee you that E-Discovery vendors who find child porn on a computer, whether it came from their client, the other side's client, or a third party, will report it to the police because possession of child pornography is a crime.

 

[lupinko]

New news should require new thread, and this is hilarious.

 

[Slightly Live]

Didn't anyone read the email exchange? He didn't bail the country to escape the Court.

 

[heyf00L]

Maybe he can win the argument that turning over the drives does not include turning over the controller cards with them.

But still, removing the controller cards seems like a pointless move. It's only going to delay things and make the judge (who will probably only see this as some sort of tampering) mad at him.

 

[Curufinwe]

Didn't anyone read the email exchange? He didn't bail the country to escape the Court.

Would you mind quoting the parts of the email exchange that establish that fact?

 

[Captain Tuttle]

New news should require new thread, and this is hilarious.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425197

 

[HaRyu]

Didn't anyone read the email exchange? He didn't bail the country to escape the Court.

If he's not out of the country, why did it state in a Motion filed by Hotz that he's not in the country in the first place?

 

[Zoe]

If he's not out of the country, why did it state in a Motion filed by Hotz that he's not in the country in the first place?

I think he's arguing intent.

 

[Slightly Live]

If he's not out of the country, why did it state in a Motion filed by Hotz that he's not in the country in the first place?

Read this.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26663445&postcount=4090

The only reason why he can't give them what they want is because he's currently out of the country. He could be on vacation or visiting a friend. Prior to the request, he even made sure to let them them know he would be gone.

And the tampering with evidence bit. It could be a misunderstanding. Maybe he wasn't aware of which specific disk components to hand over? They certainly have all the data on there, untampered, so he's not hiding anything.

 

[Curufinwe]

You don't know that all the data is on there. The Intelligence Group have not been able to access it yet.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

Corporate white knights seem to have whipped their dicks out for the day.

 

[black_vegeta]

This was posted in the GeoHotz flees to South America thread: LULZ!!!

 

[blu]

You don't know that all the data is on there. The Intelligence Group have not been able to access it yet.

That sounds like neglect on the intelligence group's part. How difficult is it to replace the missing controller parts with identical ones from the vendor?

 

[Curufinwe]

Neglect... lol.

 

[TOAO_Cyrus]

Really? lolz
I wondered how that ended.

Actually I believe they just got the impound order canceled, the actual infringement case has not been tried yet.

 

[plc268]

That sounds like neglect on the intelligence group's part. How difficult is it to replace the missing controller parts with identical ones from the vendor?

It sounds like they're a bunch amateurs. If "computer forensics" is their business, they should be able to source and find the correct controller boards for the hard drives.

Kinda clever by Hotz to take the controller boards. It won't stop them in the long run, but it's a nice way to fuck with these guys.

 

[Zoe]

That sounds like neglect on the intelligence group's part. How difficult is it to replace the missing controller parts with identical ones from the vendor?

That in itself would be altering the evidence.

It's not like they're trying to reconstruct something that was partially destroyed. The harddrives were presumably complete and functional before they were sent.

 

[phosphor112]

Bye Junior.

Why, "Bye Junior?" The traits for Asperger's is there. I used to work with special needs patients at Damar. They are very high functioning and for the most part were smarter than me in mathematics and other analytical subjects, they just don't know how to act socially. I've worked with very hostile, docile, and patients a lot like Geo (those who saw themselves as an authoritative figure.)

I can understand if you think his post came off a little insensitive (it kinda did) but he might be correct. Geo is very intelligent at what he does, but his social skills puts him a little bit in the awkward category.

 

[Curufinwe]

Kinda clever by Hotz to take the controller boards. It won't stop them in the long run, but it's a nice way to fuck with these guys.

By guys, you really mean the judge who ordered the discovery to take place, and that's really not someone you want to fuck with.

 

[plc268]

By guys, you really mean the judge who ordered the discovery to take place, and that's really not someone you want to fuck with.

Not that I would do something like that if I were in that situation, but sitting back and watching it all, it's pretty hilarious.

 

[Curufinwe]

It's definitely hilarious.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

Why, "Bye Junior?" The traits for Asperger's is there. I used to work with special needs patients at Damar. They are very high functioning and for the most part were smarter than me in mathematics and other analytical subjects, they just don't know how to act socially. I've worked with very hostile, docile, and patients a lot like Geo (those who saw themselves as an authoritative figure.)

I can understand if you think his post came off a little insensitive (it kinda did) but he might be correct. Geo is very intelligent at what he does, but his social skills puts him a little bit in the awkward category.

Separate your emotions from this. No one knows Hotz enough to freaking diagnose him with AS. Come on. Sure the guy is douche/weird enough for people to be put off by him and start to judge him (hmm...bad choice of words at this point), but to label him this much? Gah.

 

[phosphor112]

I wonder if he used the donation money for the journey.

Considering he said he needed money for lawyers... Taking donations from people because you need it, then going on a trip... yep, I'm sure he did, even if he didn't he should have kept the money in the bank, just in case he were to need... another donation.

Corporate white knights seem to have whipped their dicks out for the day.

Lmao. If you want to attack someone in the industry, have it be the game publishers considering they can take away your license for a game YOU bought AT ANY TIME. Sony's EULA and TOS is completely reasonable as they are a business that depends on security of their platform. Consumers also rely on this security as well.

Separate your emotions from this. No one knows Hotz enough to freaking diagnose him with AS. Come on. Sure the guy is douche/weird enough for people to be put off by him and start to judge him (hmm...bad choice of words at this point), but to label him this much? Gah.

Saying someone might has Asperger's isn't an insult. They may be awkward but chances are they are a lot smarter than most people on Gaf in certain aspects. Just like others that have autism. Have you seen these guys do their thing? It's phenomenal.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

Considering he said he needed money for lawyers... Taking donations from people because you need it, then going on a trip... yep, I'm sure he did, even if he didn't he should have kept the money in the bank, just in case he were to need... another donation.

How much does the cost of lawyers compare to the cost of a SA vacation? One is petty compared to the other, no? I would not make any assumptions just from the vacation just yet. I'd wait it out a bit. Claiming he used the donation money just to flee without any logical evidence means you open up the possibility to eat tons of crow in the not so distant future. The white knights may have harped their Sony trumpets a bit too early.

Lmao. If you want to attack someone in the industry, have it be the game publishers considering they can take away your license for a game YOU bought AT ANY TIME. Sony's EULA and TOS is completely reasonable as they are a business that depends on security of their platform. Consumers also rely on this security as well.

Reasonable as it is coincidental. Interesting how the latest firmwares revealed Sony can keep the system secure without having to gimp features. I have as much scorn for the keyboard cheerleaders as for the publishers telling me what I can and can't do with a product I own. This is from the consumerist in me. I was there at that old GAF thread when a dev pretty much said 'you don't own any game, you own a license to play the game [we created]'. Of course, the cost of enjoying more with products and how that is achieved (legally and morally) is the topic of eternal battle, eh?

Saying someone might has Asperger's isn't an insult. They may be awkward but chances are they are a lot smarter than most people on Gaf in certain aspects. Just like others that have autism. Have you seen these guys do their thing? It's phenomenal.

Perhaps it's not an insult to you. But if you tried to convince anyone he/she had some condition and tried to spin it around with some flickering positive aspects, I truly doubt you'd be met with a smile. That's why I said to separate your emotions from this particular subject. YOU see the positivity in such conditions/syndromes, but most people don't, and would rather be 'normal' than be given mixed blessings.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

How much does the cost of lawyers compare to the cost of a SA vacation? One is petty compared to the other, no? I would not make any assumptions just from the vacation just yet. I'd wait it out a bit. Claiming he used the donation money just to flee without any logical evidence means you open up the possibility to eat tons of crow in the not so distant future. The white knights may have harped their Sony trumpets a bit too early.

Dude it's the principle of the thing. He was obviously hurting for money, that's why he asked for donations. But then he is taking a vacation? It doesn't matter if he found a cheap ticket or somewhere, when you ask for money from people and then do that it's pretty damn disrespectful.

 

[blu]

That in itself would be altering the evidence.

It's not like they're trying to reconstruct something that was partially destroyed. The harddrives were presumably complete and functional before they were sent.

I think it really comes down to what he was ordered to submit. Reading the forensic guys email, they seem to think he had to send them his entire rig. Reading the lawyer's reply, it sounds like that's not what the court ordered Hotz.

 

[test_account]

Pretty sure the controller cards are part of the storage devices, brah.

Hey, let me give you this USB-stick, without the USB-contact.

True, maybe he could also just had handed in the HDD plates themself, which stores the data hehe

I think it really comes down to what he was ordered to submit. Reading the forensic guys email, they seem to think he had to send them his entire rig. Reading the lawyer's reply, it sounds like that's not what the court ordered Hotz.

Didnt the court say that Sony (although a 3rd part will do the job) could go through Geohot's harddrive(s)? Without all the parts of the HDD, then it is hard to do it.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

So if I say I need to buy a car and as soon as you hand me thousands upon thousands in donations, I buy myself a $50 foot massage (and you don't know if I used personal funds or loan money), it's disrespectful and rude?

Oh right, principle of the matter. Whatever the fuck that means. If Hotz doesn't come back, he clearly had an ulterior motive. If he comes back and fights the trial to the end, I guarantee you that his 'trip' cost will be tiny in comparison to other costs. Should donors be upset? Can't say right now. Is the anger understandable? Of course.

 

[Zoe]

I think it really comes down to what he was ordered to submit. Reading the forensic guys email, they seem to think he had to send them his entire rig. Reading the lawyer's reply, it sounds like that's not what the court ordered Hotz.

His lawyer said this:

Mr. Hotz was ordered to provide his hard drives and storage devices on which any circumvention devices were stored-- nothing more.

To which TheIntelligenceGroup replied:

Your client has not provided a “hard drive” but rather parts of the hard drive.   A “hard drive” must contain all the parts that make it a working device which include the enclosure, platters, heads and attached controller card.   This controller card is  installed at the factory and not normally removed or handled by an end user.  

http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/SonyvHotz-104-19.pdf

 

[Jomjom]

So if I say I need to buy a car and as soon as you hand me thousands upon thousands in donations, I buy myself a $50 foot massage (and you don't know if I used personal funds or loan money), it's disrespectful and rude?

Oh right, principle of the matter. Whatever the fuck that means. If Hotz doesn't come back, he clearly had an ulterior motive. If he comes back and fights the trial to the end, I guarantee you that his 'trip' cost will be tiny in comparison to other costs. Should donors be upset? Can't say right now. Is the anger understandable? Of course.

So under your logic if the world donates 10 billion dollars to Japan for the earthquake recovery efforts, it is ok for the Japanese government to spend 1 million for frivolous trips for its cabinet members because it's small in comparison to the donated amount?

To your second point that perhaps its personal funds, using the Japan analogy again, even if the 1 million was from personal funds, should that not have gone toward the more pressing matter for which donations were requested and accepted?

 

[Zeal]

This was posted in the GeoHotz flees to South America thread: LULZ!!!

i've seen it before, but this should be in an art museum.

 

[blu]

To which TheIntelligenceGroup replied:

http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/SonyvHotz-104-19.pdf

While I find their quoted reply valid in its local scope (a hdd's logic PCB is part of the factory-shipped device), factories just as well supply replacement PCBs. Perhaps that's another one of Hotz' 101-stupid-shit-acts-to-pull-while-on-a-trial, and I want to make clear I'm not defending him, but I don't find valid:

1. TIG's claims they are unable to read the hdd's physical content within a reasonable effort, and that Hotz' act of removing the PCB's should be considered tampering (unless those PCB's were custom-made, one-of-a-kind interface elements). I mean, he had to physically unplug the hdd from his rig, just to send it over. He could have unintentionally electro-shocked the device with static in the process, dropped it on the floor, etc. How's that for tampering?
2. Their demands that Hotz must send them his entire rig, given than that was not explicitly ordered by the court.

Basically what I don't agree with in this case is the 3rd party 'discovery specialists' behavior.

 

[phosphor112]

Reasonable as it is coincidental. Interesting how the latest firmwares revealed Sony can keep the system secure without having to gimp features. I have as much scorn for the keyboard cheerleaders as for the publishers telling me what I can and can't do with a product I own. This is from the consumerist in me. I was there at that old GAF thread when a dev pretty much said 'you don't own any game, you own a license to play the game [we created]'. Of course, the cost of enjoying more with products and how that is achieved (legally and morally) is the topic of eternal battle, eh.

I only care to respond to this. Sony's latest firmware agreement is in my interest as a consumer. If taking away an option (that isn't even advertised on the box) to help secure a walled garden that I (and millions of others use) I am ok with that.

What EA and Activision like to do, is flex their muscle and take away a game for no reason. That ISN'T in my interest. Why? I can't play the game if they ban me for calling them assholes. If Sony banned me, I can still use my PS3 and the firmware.

While I find their quoted reply valid in its local scope (a hdd's logic PCB is part of the factory-shipped device), factories just as well supply replacement PCBs. Perhaps that's another one of Hotz' 101-stupid-shit-acts-to-pull-while-on-a-trial, and I want to make clear I'm not defending him, but I don't find valid:

1. TIG's claims they are unable to read the hdd's physical content within a reasonable effort, and that Hotz' act of removing the PCB's should be considered tampering (unless those PCB's were custom-made, one-of-a-kind interface elements). I mean, he had to physically unplug the hdd from his rig, just to send it over. He could have unintentionally electro-shocked the device with static in the process, dropped it on the floor, etc. How's that for tampering?
2. Their demands that Hotz must send them his entire rig, given than that was not explicitly ordered by the court.

Basically what I don't agree with in this case is the 3rd party 'discovery specialists' behavior.

You clearly don't know wtf you are talking about. They aren't asking for his whole computer, just all the components that MAKE UP A HARD DRIVE.

" A “hard drive” must contain all the parts that make it a working device which include the enclosure, platters, heads and attached controller card. This controller card is installed at the factory and not normally removed or handled by an end user."

Those are all parts of a hard drive. Also, I'm sure this company that specialized computer forensics knows wtf they are doing.

 

[blu]

You clearly don't know wtf you are talking about. They aren't asking for his whole computer, just all the components that MAKE UP A HARD DRIVE.

You can't read pdf's, I take it. Let me quote for you:

I would recommend that Mr. Hotz forward to us immediately both the hard drive controller cards, screws and
anything else he may have including the complete computer system (minus the monitor, keyboard and mouse) so
that we can be prepared to complete the forensic imaging process (both encrypted and un-encrypted).

You're welcome.

Those are all parts of a hard drive. Also, I'm sure this company that specialized computer forensics knows wtf they are doing.

You're sure based on what? Apparently you know something about them which we here don't.

 

[Zoe]

You can't read pdf's, I take it. Let me quote for you:



You're welcome.

You can take TIG's follow-up email as an agreement that just the harddrive would suffice. However, they didn't receive the harddrive.

 

[phosphor112]

You can't read pdf's, I take it. Let me quote for you:

You're welcome.

I like the word "recommend" that is being used by them. They aren't asking for the full rig.

Recommend: verb; To bestow commendation on; to represent favourably; to suggest, endorse or encourage as an appropriate choice; To make acceptable; to attract favor to; To advise, propose, counsel favorably; To commit, confide to another's care, confidence or acceptance, with favoring representations

You're welcome.

You're sure based on what? Apparently you know something about them which we here don't.

Here is a link to the companies web site...
http://www.intell-group.com/intellgrphome.html

You're welcome.

Spoiler

I can be a snide asshole as well.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

So under your logic if the world donates 10 billion dollars to Japan for the earthquake recovery efforts, it is ok for the Japanese government to spend 1 million for frivolous trips for its cabinet members because it's small in comparison to the donated amount?

To your second point that perhaps its personal funds, using the Japan analogy again, even if the 1 million was from personal funds, should that not have gone toward the more pressing matter for which donations were requested and accepted?

As you brought charitable donations into this, I assume you are aware of how much money charities routinely spend on themselves in terms of administration fees, marketing and publicity and staff wages that do not go towards the charitable concerns they represent?

Also it's a pretty big leap from 'he's not in the country right now' to 'lulz he's taken all his donations and fled the country'.

Does being in a civil case or asking for financial assistance to help fund it mean you're suddenly an indentured servant unable to take a vacation?

 

[blu]

I like the word "recommend" that is being used by them. They aren't asking for the full rig.

Recommend: verb; To bestow commendation on; to represent favourably; to suggest, endorse or encourage as an appropriate choice; To make acceptable; to attract favor to; To advise, propose, counsel favorably; To commit, confide to another's care, confidence or acceptance, with favoring representations

You're welcome.

So they're also recommending he sent them his hdd's controller cards?

Thanks, you really opened up my eyes.

 

[Riskbreaker23]

So if I say I need to buy a car and as soon as you hand me thousands upon thousands in donations, I buy myself a $50 foot massage (and you don't know if I used personal funds or loan money), it's disrespectful and rude?

Oh right, principle of the matter. Whatever the fuck that means. If Hotz doesn't come back, he clearly had an ulterior motive. If he comes back and fights the trial to the end, I guarantee you that his 'trip' cost will be tiny in comparison to other costs. Should donors be upset? Can't say right now. Is the anger understandable? Of course.

A $50 foot massage isnt comparable in this case better example would be asking for money to buy a car then going going out and buying a 50'' HDTV.

 

[phosphor112]

So they're also recommending he sent them his hdd's controller cards?

Thanks, you really opened up my eyes.

Really?...

The company NEEDS the controller cards in order to decrypt the files on the hard drive. When you purchase a "hard drive" the "hard drive" includes all the things I listed above. The casing, the platters, the headers, the controller card, all of it. Without those things, it is not a "hard drive." A "chair" with missing legs isn't a fucking chair because it doesn't have all parts to become a chair.

The company NEEDS those controller cards, they just RECOMMEND to send the whole rig to avoid any obstacles.

 

[blu]

Really?...

The company NEEDS the controller cards in order to decrypt the files on the hard drive. When you purchase a "hard drive" the "hard drive" includes all the things I listed above. The casing, the platters, the headers, the controller card, all of it. Without those things, it is not a "hard drive." A "chair" with missing legs isn't a fucking chair because it doesn't have all parts to become a chair.

The company NEEDS those controller cards, they just RECOMMEND to send the whole rig to avoid any obstacles.

So are you saying 'recommend' should not be interpreted the way you just told me I should. I'm confused now. Let me quote once again the paragraph that is being discussed:

I would recommend that Mr. Hotz forward to us immediately both the hard drive controller cards, screws and anything else he may have including the complete computer system (minus the monitor, keyboard and mouse) so that we can be prepared to complete the forensic imaging process (both encrypted and un-encrypted).

So, according to your superior reading, 'recommend' refers only to the bolded part after the 'and' conjunction. The part before the conjunction is actually needed. Gotcha, doc. I'll never look at English the same way again.

 

[phosphor112]

So are you saying 'recommend' should not be interpreted the way you just told me I should. I'm confused now. Let me quote once again the paragraph that is being discussed:



So, according to your superior reading, 'recommend' refers only to the bolded part after the 'and' conjunction. The part before the conjunction is actually needed. Gotcha, doc. I'll never look at English the same way again.

Now you're just doing some semantics bullshit with me. They recommend the whole set of things but they need the controller cards. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Evlar]

I think "recommend" means he's making a recommendation on how the court should address the problem of imaging the hard drive.

See how I cut the Gordian fucking Knot.

 

[Curufinwe]

It's only hard to understand if you're desperately looking for reasons to explain geohot's obviously inappropriate behavior regarding the hard drives.

 

[Neuromancer]

Giving a hard drive without a controller card is a dick move.

Also if he had the hard drives set up on a hardware RAID, the forensic examiners might very well need the entire computer in order to get information off the drives.

 

[blu]

Now you're just doing some semantics bullshit with me. They recommend the whole set of things but they need the controller cards. Is that so hard to understand?

Where do they say they need them? They say they cannot operate the hdd's without controller cards (a basic, well-known fact), then they go on with a certain recommendation, which, as we know by now, was just for good measure, and not obligatory in any shape or form. Nowhere do they state they 'need' those original hdd controller boards Hotz presumably removed. Which implies that TIG can get such boards from other sources. And indeed, the hdd's original vendor should be able to provide them with a surplus of such boards. But I'm sure TIG, being the professionals that they are, know that very well, and just for the lulz recommend that Hotz sent them the boards, along with his entire rig, while he's abroad and they know it. No harm done, though, as Hotz will see the subtle joke, knowing too well the meaning of the verb 'recommend', and will just carry on with his vacation.

 

[DangerousDave]

Is quite obvious that they use the term "recommend" to keep a polite conversation. You can see in the answer how Hotz lawyers talk about the recomendation as a "unilateral demand", in a much more aggresive languaje.

It's a very stupid move of Hotz (or maybe of Hotz lawyers) to not cooperate in this. There is no way that they can avoid the investigation of the HD, and complicating the work of the forensics will only make them look guilty in the eyes of the judge. Also, is obvious that Hotz, even being outside of the country, can explain the lawyers where the controller cards are, and anyone else can bring them to the forensics.

 

[blu]

Is quite obvious that they use the term "recommend" to keep a polite conversation. You can see in the answer how Hotz lawyers talk about the recomendation as a "unilateral demand", in a much more aggresive language.

You think so? Are you saying phosphor112 has been pulling my leg for the entire page? Darn.

: )

 

[x3sphere]

So if I say I need to buy a car and as soon as you hand me thousands upon thousands in donations, I buy myself a $50 foot massage (and you don't know if I used personal funds or loan money), it's disrespectful and rude?

Oh right, principle of the matter. Whatever the fuck that means. If Hotz doesn't come back, he clearly had an ulterior motive. If he comes back and fights the trial to the end, I guarantee you that his 'trip' cost will be tiny in comparison to other costs. Should donors be upset? Can't say right now. Is the anger understandable? Of course.

He may have planned this trip well in advance, it could even be for work. He's a freelancer. There's no reason for him to put his life on hold over a civil suit. There are so many unanswered questions that it's best just to wait and hear Hotz's side of the story.

 

[jcm]

Where do they say they need them? They say they cannot operate the hdd's without controller cards (a basic, well-known fact), then they go on with a certain recommendation, which, as we know by now, was just for good measure, and not obligatory in any shape or form. Nowhere do they state they 'need' those original hdd controller boards Hotz presumably removed. Which implies that TIG can get such boards from other sources. And indeed, the hdd's original vendor should be able to provide them with a surplus of such boards. But I'm sure TIG, being the professionals that they are, know that very well, and just for the lulz recommend that Hotz sent them the boards, along with his entire rig, while he's abroad and they know it. No harm done, though, as Hotz will see the subtle joke, knowing too well the meaning of the verb 'recommend', and will just carry on with his vacation.

You're being ridiculous. TIG is a neutral forensic company. Their job is to read the drives. They can't read the drives in the condition Hotz sent them. It's not their job to go out and buy two more identical hard drives, swap the cards, and hope they don't fuck it up and destroy the data in the process. They are almost certainly irritated that Hotz is wasting their time. What's so difficult here?