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South Park is not subversive

smokeymicpot

Beat EviLore at pool.
They only made an entire fake sitcom to make fun of Bush.

thats-my-bush-2.jpg


The show also had several instances in which he was portrayed as a buffoon and his cabinet controlled by Satan. Meanwhile, they never had a single mean joke about Obama. What seems to be puddle deep is your knowledge of the show.

They did have the whole sex addict episode. Obama was in it if that counts.
 

Audioboxer

Member
I think Trey and Matt are saying "fuck American politics" and "life is too short might as well laugh at everything."

I'm not sure people should take seriously a show about Underpants Gnomes and Crab People.

I'm pretty hardcore liberal and PC Principle was hilarious. I never once understood it as taking a shot at my side. They could have made him a super huge hippie or a blog activist or something more annoying, but they made him a white bro, which screams right wing to me. I think they were trying to wrap up both sides in his persona.

Two of the main trailers for PC Principal (directly from the South Park YouTube channel for anyone worrying about YT recommendations).

https://youtu.be/xZDK_LG9DuU

https://youtu.be/ZGWKKI2ky8w

A blind donkey can see why people on the right laugh at many of the PC Principal scenes. It is however completely okay for someone on the left to laugh too! Because you laugh doesn't mean it's a reflection of you being some sort of terrible person. You're watching a cartoon. Sometimes serious political and social concepts/realities can be satirised/joked about. What matters isn't your ability to self-deprecate or take something less seriously for a bit, but what you actually believe and how you act in life. If you actually act like Cartman and Randy to random people (targeted abuse or whatever), yeah, that's a problem. You have to be a shitty person to do that though, prior to even watching South Park. As I said earlier usually a strong test of one's own beliefs is the ability and skill to laugh and satirise those beliefs on occasion.
 
It seems to me that you want them to have a defined agenda that falls into your preconceived parameters of Liberal/Conservative, you say that they don't have concrete stances, but they do, they have very well defined opinions and stances in individual issues, just because they don't aprove of all things left doesn't change the fact that they sure as hell aren't right leaning.

I've been noticing this tendancy from some on GAF, and it's really misguided. The creators of South Park don't align specifically with any specific political view, nor should they. People are more complicated than left or right.

For better or worse South Park represents what they think about the world. You're allowed to be offended or not like their views, but I've never doubted they are their own views, not some viewpoint prescribed by a political ideology.

I can't expect them to be something other than themselves.
 

KahooTs

Member
That first time South Park wasn't in their ideological corner seems to have been a big traumatic event in a lot of people's lives.
 

Madness

Member
Except this is complete bullshit. They are basic libertarians and also hate liberals who they think are preachy. That's why they hate environmentalists. That's why they made fun of Al Gore for an entire episode but not George W. Bush. That's why Team America had a bunch of Hollywood liberals who were buffoons at best, traitors at worst, but you'll never see them go after Bill O'Reilly. Yeah they made fun of the Catholic Church but guess what there are plenty of conservatives who aren't Catholic or even relisious.

Saying South Park is some kind of equal opportunity satire is an admission that your understanding of American politics is puddle deep.

Where did I say it was completely equal opportunity satire? Also like someone else said, your examples are anecdotal. They made more fun of George W. Bush than they did Barack Obama. What does that prove? Did you ignore them also make fun of gun nuts? Those against illegal immigration? The idea they are alt right conservatives is laughable to me considering what they have done for decades. Your harsh critique of them only proves my point.

They may have some bias, everyone does, but the reality is, South Park is no longer the media darling because it went after a group of people who can't believe they would be lampooned. I've seen people who saw Book of Mormon musical say they were geniuses turn around and say they'll never support Matt and Trey because they are reductionist shitheads because of the PC Principal season.
 

Vimes

Member
I do know this. I was just trying to illustrate how one political side is okay laughing at overreactions of the other side, but if the spotlight comes to their side it's mayhem. Stereotypically speaking the Conservative right, or Christian right if you're in America have been the pack leaders on moral busy body attitudes around sex, swearing, violence, humour, satire and so on within movies, shows, games, books and anywhere people seek enjoyment/laughs/fun/blowing off steam.

The irony is the left is indeed catching up in the race to be over the top when it comes to the things it was almost exclusively the Conservative/Christian right railing at. Hence why so many left leaning articles and blogs are lampooning South Park in the current era. So I know you're right, people on the left go after it all too, the above was just illustrative of a 90s and 00s that was mostly us railing on the right overreacting. It took a while for violent video games and metal music will do x to your children to die off. It was mostly people on the left fighting that, and I can still remember Jack Thompson being roasted alive on GAF as well as any other violent video games cause x articles.

Now we're almost facing watching South Park will make you alt-right. Or, watching it means you're endorsing the alt-right because they're laughing at the same jokes as you are. That's not a high end criticism of the show or you simply saying you don't find it funny, that's you trying to be a controlling moral busy body like groups of people we've satirised in the past who inferred dire consequences from video games, music and satirical/crude humour. Decent, well adjusted and moral human beings do not watch a 20 minute show called South Park and then wake up the next day "born again alt-right". We take life less seriously for that 20 minutes and try and laugh at some outrageous characters, before switching back on and going back to the real world/daily grind and our social/political duties.

I have never seen so many words devoted to saying "I have no skin in the game" than you in every South Park thread.

I get that you think what you're writing is deep, but when you cut to the chase all you're doing is making moral equivalency between the right and left. And that's bullshit.

I don't have a problem with people who watch South Park because they still think it's funny. But the contortions you people make to cast ulterior motives on those who have moved past it and point out what's problematic are embarrassing as hell. The phrase "problematic favorite" was literally invented so you guys would have an out on this.
 
For better or worse South Park represents what they think about the world. You're allowed to be offended or not like their views, but I've never doubted they are their own views, not some viewpoint prescribed by a political ideology.

I can't expect them to be something other than themselves.

They don't represent a view-point.

The biggest junction point of their adult lives in politics they put this bullshit out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douche_and_Turd

Being amoral at that point in time is a joke.

Like the other poster mentioned, and this is from the horses mouth
According to Nick Gillespie of Reason magazine, this episode "pretty much sums up how most libertarians approach politics."
 

phanphare

Banned
They don't represent a view-point.

The biggest junction point of their adult lives in politics they put this bullshit out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douche_and_Turd

Being amoral at that point in time is a joke.

Like the other poster mentioned, and this is from the horses mouth

"Returning to South Park, Stan is finally convinced to vote and chooses turd sandwich. Despite his vote, the giant douche still wins the vote 1410 to 36. Stan initially points out that his vote did not matter, but his parents inform their son that all votes matter even if it is for the losing side."
 

sibarraz

Banned
I still don't get why a show which normalized the gay love of 2 young kids could be labeled as an alt right heaven.

I mean, I could understand why the show isn't considered from the left, but I still want to know in which kind of socialist utopia where some of you live than obviously has left ideals way stronger than most of us were this show is obviously catered towards alt right nazi people.

But again, the gumball thread where people were bashing the show as an alt right 4 chan approved show for mocking SJW in one episode made me realize that people from the left can be dumb too.
 

DarkKyo

Member
Did they really just use the word woke several times in that? Good lord.

I don't understand what they want South Park to do. Ignore race? If they went in the other direction with some of these gags they wouldn't be saying anything about race, would that be somehow better? I'm not saying their commentary is cutting edge but at least stuff like the skin color/difficulty slider is saying something about the state of things in the US and is reaching people who would never even normally think about it.

"Returning to South Park, Stan is finally convinced to vote and chooses turd sandwich. Despite his vote, the giant douche still wins the vote 1410 to 36. Stan initially points out that his vote did not matter, but his parents inform their son that all votes matter even if it is for the losing side."

Call it cynical but that's truthful as hell. Our votes don't matter, even if one candidate is better than the other.
 

ExVicis

Member
Hmm. This is probably the first article I've ever read that uses the verb "Woke". Kinda makes me not sure how I feel about the rest of it. Makes me think I'm reading some NeoGaf Hot Take on an issue.
 

Audioboxer

Member
I have never seen so many words devoted to saying "I have no skin in the game" than you in every South Park thread.

I get that you think what you're writing is deep, but when you cut to the chase all you're doing is making moral equivalency between the right and left. And that's bullshit.

I don't have a problem with people who watch South Park because they still think it's funny. But the contortions you people make to cast ulterior motives on people who have moved past it and point out what's problematic are embarrassing as hell. The phrase "problematic favorite" was literally invented so you guys would have an out on this.

Saying someone on the left and right can laugh at the same thing is not moral equivalency. Laughing says little of your morals in of itself, your actions and deeply held beliefs do. People who struggle to decipher that point from my posts will of course go right to the usual "both sides!" or "he's saying the left and right are the same!". That's to completely miss most of my points and head straight to the same recycled reasons for blog and article headlines that try to infer watching South Park and being comfortable laughing at humour the right might laugh at means you need to ask yourself "do you have skin in this game?". I don't think there's anything it hasn't satirised/joked about, everyone gets the spotlight from it at some point.
 

DarkKyo

Member
Hmm. This is probably the first article I've ever read that uses the verb "Woke". Kinda makes me not sure how I feel about the rest of it. Makes me think I'm reading some NeoGaf Hot Take on an issue.

Feels like the author of the article is trying to state how -woke- he is by proclaiming how -woke- other people think they are.

ugh, it hurt to type that
They did have the whole sex addict episode. Obama was in it if that counts.

It doesn't count because they didn't make fun of Obama. They've poked fun at him but not in any meaningful way because he's nearly impossible to satirize, and why would you?
 

Slime

Banned
It's for people whose primary act of rebellion is the subversion of giving a shit about anything.

It's like the last remnant of the 90's slacker ideal.
 

akileese

Member
Plenty of people hated him. I remember a certain person (won't name names) that wrote an article that amounted to "South Park mocked what I believe in thus they're no longer funny"
PC Principal's the reason so many people scream "SOUTH PARK IS ALT-RIGHT" now.

Also this Giant Bomb clip

Ah! The Isaac Hayes approach. Isaac Hayes quit South Park because they took shots at scientology. Here was a guy who did 9 seasons of a show in which they lampooned every single group of people they possibly could and he was seemingly fine with it until it was his turn to be the butt end of a joke.

I'm not saying you need to love South Park or treat it as some bastion for enlightened views, because it sure isn't that. But they have the attitude that nothing is sacred and fair game. They did an entire two parter on that with Cartoon Wars in season 10. To me, South Park just shows that a lot of people feel they're impervious to criticism. They'll watch it and laugh at every group that gets lampooned, but the moment their beliefs are in the cross hairs they get outraged.
 

BatDan

Bane? Get them on board, I'll call it in.
Feels like the author of the article is trying to state how -woke- he is by proclaiming how -woke- other people think they are.

ugh, it hurt to type that


It doesn't count because they didn't make fun of Obama. They've poked fun at him but not in any meaningful way because he's nearly impossible to satirize, and why would you?

No kidding, hurt to read it.

I think the most they mocked him was one episode where the country is scared of something, and he said he's going to go into the White House bunker and leave them to die. But that seems more like a President thing than an Obama thing.
There was also the episode he won where he wasn't actually a politician but a thief that used the election to distract the country while he and McCain pulled off a major heist.

People forget that Seasons 19 and 20 were 75% about mocking Trump.

Ah! The Isaac Hayes approach. Isaac Hayes quit South Park because they took shots at scientology. Here was a guy who did 9 seasons of a show in which they lampooned every single group of people they possibly could and he was seemingly fine with it until it was his turn to be the butt end of a joke.

I'm not saying you need to love South Park or treat it as some bastion for enlightened views, because it sure isn't that. But they have the attitude that nothing is sacred and fair game. They did an entire two parter on that with Cartoon Wars in season 10. To me, South Park just shows that a lot of people feel they're impervious to criticism. They'll watch it and laugh at every group that gets lampooned, but the moment their beliefs are in the cross hairs they get outraged.

Bingo. I remember years ago in that Purity Ring episode that mocked the Jonas Brothers. Sooo many preteen girls threw a hissy fit because they mocked the precious Jonas Brothers. Oh wow they really were a flavor of the month.
 

DarkKyo

Member
There was also the episode he won where he wasn't actually a politician but a thief that used the election to distract the country while he and McCain pulled off a major heist.

Lol yeah the most "offensive" thing they had Obama do was smuggle a massive diamond out of a museum with his anal cavity.
 

Phased

Member
Ah! The Isaac Hayes approach. Isaac Hayes quit South Park because they took shots at scientology. Here was a guy who did 9 seasons of a show in which they lampooned every single group of people they possibly could and he was seemingly fine with it until it was his turn to be the butt end of a joke.

I'm not saying you need to love South Park or treat it as some bastion for enlightened views, because it sure isn't that. But they have the attitude that nothing is sacred and fair game. They did an entire two parter on that with Cartoon Wars in season 10. To me, South Park just shows that a lot of people feel they're impervious to criticism. They'll watch it and laugh at every group that gets lampooned, but the moment their beliefs are in the cross hairs they get outraged.

Bingo. People are fine when SP is critical of things they don't like, but the second they start to make fun of the stuff they like or support they become the enemy forever. This isnt just a one side thing, right now the alt right is upset but a year or two ago it was liberals upset SP was making fun of PC culture.

Everything is a valid target for SP and the only people who seem to get upset is the people who somehow think SP is on their side because they are currently making fun of a target you dislike. I've never really seen South Park try and push a consistent message. I just see them making fun of things they see as ridiculous, and if they offend people doing it, that's fine (or all the better for them)
 

Sadsic

Member
theres a really good episode of Malcolm Gladwell's podcast about something called the "satire paradox" - basically the idea is that politically tinged satirical comedy usually just makes the discourse of whatever point of view it recommends worse. I think in general south park has done waaaaay more damage towards the left in terms of critical discourse over the years than to the right, regardless of whether or not the creators themselves are liberal or not

i know a ton of millennial-aged people who have a jaded "both sides are terrible" view of politics partly because of south park's constant message of "giant douche" vs "turd sandwich" when it comes to both parties - in particular i know a few people who refused to vote last year because of this

in general my personal opinion of this show is that it hasnt been particularly good or interesting in multiple seasons so its not even worth thinking about at this point pretty much

podcast episode i mentioned: http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/10-the-satire-paradox
 

Hesh

Member
Hmm, I always saw South Park as lampooning both sides of the political spectrum. It's worrying how many people don't seem to understand that you don't have to pledge undying allegiance to one side or the other and you can just agree and disagree with both sides.

Also, that article is silly. South Park is satire, and pretty much by definition is subversive by how it commentates on current events, ideologies and social norms by lampooning them. You can not enjoy the satire or disagree with how they lampooned something, but to dismiss it outright is wrong.
 

Vimes

Member
theres a really good episode of Malcolm Gladwell's podcast about something called the "satire paradox" - basically the idea is that politically tinged satirical comedy usually just makes the discourse of whatever point of view it recommends worse. I think in general south park has done waaaaay more damage towards the left in terms of critical discourse over the years than to the right, regardless of whether or not the creators themselves are liberal or not

podcast episode i mentioned: http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/10-the-satire-paradox

Been thinking about this lately. Thanks for the link, hopefully I can make time to listen to this.
 

Caturro

Member
I've been noticing this tendancy from some on GAF, and it's really misguided. The creators of South Park don't align specifically with any specific political view, nor should they. People are more complicated than left or right.

For better or worse South Park represents what they think about the world. You're allowed to be offended or not like their views, but I've never doubted they are their own views, not some viewpoint prescribed by a political ideology.

I can't expect them to be something other than themselves.

Yes they do. They are Libertarians and the show very transparently portrays that, which is why people perceive they take on 'both sides' equally, since Libertarians see themselves above the left and the right ideologically speaking (for some reason).

Of course, Libertarians are weed smoking conservatives so that's pretty much the viewpoint that you get.

At the same time, SP is just a comedy show and no one should be taking their moral tidbits seriously, which is what makes the article in the OP hilarious.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Your high horse must be getting old with all those decade+ examples you used.

Is this supposed to mean something? Was South Park born anew in 2016 and nothing before that counts?

And yet that movies biggest piece of satire was lampooning the overly militarized culture of America and the over top way we champion that with patriotism. Those things are largely categorized with right wing rhetoric, so in a way you basically proved that guys point by only focusing on the things that poke fun at "your side".

Tne heroes were a military force that sometimes went overboard but were the good guys. The Hollywood liberals were traitors and literally called fags. Both sides!

They only made an entire fake sitcom to make fun of Bush.

thats-my-bush-2.jpg


South Park itself also had several instances in which he was portrayed as a buffoon and his cabinet controlled by Satan. Meanwhile, they never had a single mean joke about Obama. What seems to be puddle deep is your knowledge of the show.

That's My Bush portrayed him as a lovable but somewhat slightly clueless father. A typical sitcom dad, of the type that's been beloved for decades. It had nothing to do with his politics, If you think that's anything like having Michael Moore in cahoots with Kim Jong Un I don't know what to tell you.

I bet you never even saw an episode of it.

Where did I say it was completely equal opportunity satire? Also like someone else said, your examples are anecdotal. They made more fun of George W. Bush than they did Barack Obama. What does that prove? Did you ignore them also make fun of gun nuts? Those against illegal immigration? The idea they are alt right conservatives is laughable to me considering what they have done for decades. Your harsh critique of them only proves my point.

They may have some bias, everyone does, but the reality is, South Park is no longer the media darling because it went after a group of people who can't believe they would be lampooned. I've seen people who saw Book of Mormon musical say they were geniuses turn around and say they'll never support Matt and Trey because they are reductionist shitheads because of the PC Principal season.

I said they were glibertatians - which they themselves have said!!! - not alt right conservatives. South Park is no longer a media darling because it's stale as fuck and nobody is schocked by showing a cartoon take a shit anymore. I'm starting to think South Park stans were born the same year it came out or later.
 
I actually see South Park subversive in how they approach certain subject, the whole "both sides" nonsense is of course nonsense, but really like anything South Park's satire / parody can be pretty great at points tooo.

I will say that I think that people overblow South Park's influence on the alt-right though. While they may have motivated the alt-right in some ways, there were other far more damaging factors that affected / caused certain people to turn alt-right, and not just merely South Park, if you get my drift.
 

Vimes

Member
I said they were glibertatians - which they themselves have said!!! - not alt right conservatives. South Park is no longer a media darling because it's stale as fuck and nobody is schocked by showing a cartoon take a shit anymore. I'm starting to think South Park stans were born the same year it came out or later.

Is "glibertarian" a typo or a really savage pun? Either way I'm using it from now on.
 
To be fair, belittling the value of the vote and/or being cyncial about elections isn't exclusive to libertarianism.

In general sure. But this is right before the opportunity to get the biggest debacle of an administration in 30 years out of the White House and the episode centers around Giant Douche vs. Turd Sandwich.

Years later it plays into the 'ehhh, both sides' absolute bullshit canard.
 
Want me to grab a dictionary?

Subversive:

adjective
1.
seeking or intended to subvert an established system or institution.
"subversive literature"
synonyms: disruptive, troublemaking, inflammatory,

Maybe not 'disruptive', but South Park is certainly inflammatory, and 'troublemaking'. I would also argue that, whether or not you think it is successful, the intent is always seeking to subvert mainstream ideologies and institutions. I guess the author doesn't find the satire to be cutting enough to be disruptive. Anyway, I like South Park, this guy doesn't. Live and let live.

However, I have no idea what 'woke' means, but I'm old, and not hip to the new words. I only learned what Ham meant like a month ago, and I'm still not sure how to use it in a sentence. Is woke a millennial thing, or is it a racial thing? I'm old and stupid myself, but I kind of think he sounds like a moron using it.
 

PSqueak

Banned
Holy hell.

Context: The "good guys" were deliberately shown to be much more harmful to the world than a help (often devastating whatever country they were operating in) and the actors where part of the "Film Actors Guild", F.A.G, yes incredible juvenille and distasteful, just not as simplistic as reduced there.

The movie is really stupid and full of distasteful humor and shock value, but as a foreigner, i did feel that the whole thing was mocking the militaristic Bush era and straight up parodying propaganda with their portrayal of Kim Jong Ill.

The whole thing felt like they made a movie with all the shit a conservative would want to see in a movie (american exceptionalism, war, liberals painted as traitors, EVIL FOREIGNERS) played straight, but taken to absurd juvenile parody levels.
 
Context: The "good guys" were deliberately shown to be much more harmful to the world than a help (often devastating whatever country they were operating in) and the actors where part of the "Film Actors Guild", F.A.G, yes incredible juvenille and distasteful, just not as simplistic as reduced there.

The movie is really stupid and full of distasteful humor and shock value, but as a foreigner, i did feel that the whole thing was mocking the militaristic Bush era and straight up parodying propaganda with their portrayal of Kim Jong Ill.

On one hand, thanks for explaining that, but on the other it's pretty sad that TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE of all things seemed to go over peoples heads. I'm seriously at a loss.
 

Toparaman

Banned
Pretty sure the only people who think South Park is subversive are those who claim that the show created a generation of "both sides" centrists. That would be the dictionary definition of subversion.

The show isn't relevant anymore but that's to be expected when it has been running for so long.
 
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