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South Park is not subversive

HotHamBoy

Member
I stopped watching the season premiere about halfway.

New episode was terrible but let the season play out at least

Last two seasons were pretty bad so I don't see much changing.

The show just isn't funny any more and it hasn't been for a long time. There was a time in the show where the satire and commentary was more incidental but now they are so clearly strapped for ideas that it's the whole focus of the show but in the most ham-fisted, on-the-nose way.
 

prag16

Banned
Oh, a dick waving contest to determine who's the most woke. I wonder if this blogger sees the irony in his diatribe.
 
I stopped watching the season premiere about halfway.



Last two seasons were pretty bad so I don't see much changing.

season before the last one was largely considered amazing by many though, at least in the sense of what they could do with keeping a storyline going the whole season.

they're 1/3 so far though. This season they're returning to stand alone episodes and promised they'd focus more on the kids again instead of the adults. Thank God.
 

HotHamBoy

Member
season before the last one was largely considered amazing by many though, at least in the sense of what they could do with keeping a storyline going the whole season.

they're 1/3 so far though. This season they're returning to stand alone episodes and promised they'd focus more on the kids again instead of the adults. Thank God.

That season was far from amazing. It was good only relative to the seasons before it, which were truly awful.

They haven't come close to the peaks of seasons 4-8. For that matter, the seasons bordering that golden era are also better than anything they've made in years.
 
Why not watch the movie in its entirety, and think about which character gives the speech.

If you just watch the speech and nothing else, I can see why you would take your stance. But as admiral woof pointed out, the opening scene shows the 'good guys' are pieces of shit. If you agree with that, why would you take that speech as the creators opinion? Rather than it being representative of that characters beliefs?

A character they're making fun of, a character the audience is suppose to look down on. Like we do the rest of the movie because its obvious.

Its been years since I've seen this movie. But that is the general idea I had after viewing.

I still can't tell if you're serious lol.





Trump gets fucked to death. But they're both sides lmao.

I genuinely feel the toss light hearted jabs in the lefts directions. What's wrong with the left laughing at itself?

When the right is getting fucked to death? I genuinely do not understand peoples grievances with the show poking fun at everyone.

I did watch the entire movie. I like Team America. It's funny, but the politics became dated very fast. They are mocking the main characters throughout the movie. They're not good guys in the view of Matt and Trey. They're the dicks. Woofington's example doesn't contradict my interpretation. The speech scene doesn't work if it is only the character's pov and the speech has no value. It is supposed to be an insightful idiot speech where the main character tells the moral of the story in the most ridiculous way possible. I think you need to rewatch the movie.
 

ThisGuy

Member
I did watch the entire movie. I like Team America. It's funny, but the politics became dated very fast. They are mocking the main characters throughout the movie. They're not good guys in the view of Matt and Trey. They're the dicks. Woofington's example doesn't contradict my interpretation. The speech scene doesn't work if it is only the character's pov and the speech has no value. It is supposed to be an insightful idiot speech where the main character tells the moral of the story in the most ridiculous way possible. I think you need to rewatch the movie.

Its not insightful, they're talking about dicks fucking assholes, a shitty character is talking about this. How much more obvious does it need to be? And yes, woofingtons example, along with the rest of the movie disprove your point.

You need to pay closer attention to the films you watch.

Okay, idiot speech. An abhorrent character is giving a speech on morality. Think about that. It works really well also lol.
 

prag16

Banned
That season was far from amazing. It was good only relative to the seasons before it, which were truly awful.

They haven't come close to the peaks of seasons 4-8. For that matter, the seasons bordering that golden era are also better than anything they've made in years.

Your personal opinion on that season doesn't change the fact that it did seem to be widely regarded as very good.

But I do agree about where the show's golden era sits. Though I'd tighten the range slightly to seasons 5-8 probably. However I don't think anything before or after that was ever "truly awful". Every season has had its duds, but "truly awful" seems a little extreme. I don't think they've fallen off nearly as much as something like the Simpsons (with that show it completely baffles me as to how its still on; it hasn't been remotely good ever since at least the movie).
 
I mean the whole film revolved around team america, the film actors guild, and kim jong il. Seems like they wrote the speech as a joke in a rock paper scissors scenario and then wrote the basic idea of how to use it.

To say it's their political opinion is stretching it though. In the South Park 100th episode of anti vs pro war the moral of the story is that they discover that with the war hungry folks they can appear tough so countries dont fuck with america, but with the protesters they can seem like a country filled with compassionate people at the same time. so countries don't just hate americans as a whole but the leadership. Then they say something aching to "this means we can go to war and pretend that we don't want to, which gives us immunity to do whatever we want!"

which seems like a fairly negative message of the dynamic as a whole.
 

DarkKyo

Member
They haven't come close to the peaks of seasons 4-8. For that matter, the seasons bordering that golden era are also better than anything they've made in years.

Well yeah of course nothing can touch the golden era. I don't think people who are still watching South Park are expecting anything close to that, and I can probably count on one hand how many episodes have come even close to stuff in 4-11. It's still an enjoyable show to watch for me and I like to see how the show progresses and changes over the years.
 
Filmmakers' response

In an interview with Matt Stone following the film's release,[35] Anwar Brett of the BBC asked the following question. "For all the targets you choose to take pot-shots at," he asked, "George W. Bush isn't one of them. How come?" Matt Stone replied, "If you want to see Bush-bashing in America you only have to walk about 10 feet to find it. Trey and I are always attracted to what other people aren't doing. Frankly that wasn't the movie we wanted to make." In another interview, Parker and Stone further clarified the end of the film which seems to justify the role of the United States as the "World Police."[36]

Because that's the thing that we realized when we were making the movie. It was always the hardest thing. We wanted to deal with this emotion of being hated as an American. That was the thing that was intriguing to us, and having Gary the main character deal with that emotion. And so, him becoming ashamed to be a part of Team America and being ashamed of himself, he comes to realize that, just as he got his brother killed by gorillas — he didn't kill his brother; he wasn't a dick, he wasn't an asshole — so too does America have this role in the world as a dick. Cops are dicks, you fucking hate cops, but you need 'em.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_America:_World_Police#Filmmakers.27_response
 

fair enough lol. Didn't think to seach for it, seems like it would have saved endless debating.

edit: for what it's worth the first interview is them saying they are contrarians because everybody was bush bashing and they wanted to do something different. Second interview seems to be completely lost from the internet though. People reference it but it's nowhere to be seen. Not saying it's necessarily fake, but it'd be nice to read it in context. Because other interviews say they had a WAY more poticial early script but scrapped it in favor of more satire, parody and comedy over a proper message.

If someone even cares to find it please link, I'd love to read it.

edit 2: for those curious, link simply wasnt working http://www.salon.com/2004/10/12/parker_stone_2/

I won't give them a free pass on their message here, but just like their opinion has changed throughout the seasons, this likely has changed as well. Particularly with recent episodes portraying the cops as just racists.
 

Pepboy

Member
I thought PC Principle was meant to play the part of the Only Sane Man. That is, everyone else in the show are flat out insane or not right in the head, but here's a guy who is a straight arrow.

That's sort of like Republicans watching Colbert and agreeing with him. IIRC, he gets more and more over the top as the season goes on.
 
That's sort of like Republicans watching Colbert and agreeing with him. IIRC, he gets more and more over the top as the season goes on.
He ends up being the hero at the end of the season and one of the few people with pure intentions.

As usual the complaints seem to be about a character simply existing at opposed to what that character is used for.
 

groansey

Member
Hmmm, got a better source than wiki? Seems I gave them too much credit.

I remember reading that at the time. It's clear from the film this is was M&T's hot take on the situation.

Thing is in the 90's the hard right were dormant and had been subject of mockery for a decade, but now they've risen to power again in the West and are doing real harm, but lol South Park "the left are pussies, both sides"!
 

Zolo

Member
He ends up being the hero at the end of the season and one of the few people with pure intentions.

As usual the complaints seem to be about a character simply existing at opposed to what that character is used for.

Yeah. It kinda reminds me of Sheila (Kyle's mom) where she's basically a villain at the start and kinda becomes one of the more normal people later on. Though in PC principal's case, it feels like he was made softer after they figured they wanted to keep him around more than one season.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Rico won in Starship Troopers and survived the plot. Do you literary geniuses think that the movie was an ode to fascism too? Good grief lol.
 

IrishNinja

Member
For 21 seasons, Trey Parker and Matt Stone have given fake woke white people a sense of self-satisfaction, reassuring them that they rise above the myopia that grips the residents of South Park; that they are subverting the establishment, rather than perpetuating it

yuppppp
that tweet about "fuck south park for teaching a generation of white dudes that giving a shit about something is unenlightened" was spot on, no surprise that a few libertarian dudes think #alllivesmatter is deep
 
I remember when south park first started and all the more conservative parents were totally against it.

Nowadays the liberals are the ones bitching about it. It's amazing how much the world has changed in that time.

The criticisms now are just as stupid as they were back then. I don't think south park has any responsobility to solve all the social problems it makes fun of in an episode.

Also the amount of posts I see on here complaining about the creators politics are laughable. It's become heresy to do anything against a liberal, and once you do, you're marked for life as an enemy to the cause.

I'm happy I can just watch the cartoon and get a couple of laughs without feeling the need to write a masturbatory blog about how the show is perpetuating all of Americas current social issues.

I know a lot of Gaffers (not all) strongly adhere to liberal thinking, but jesus you guys are sounding just a stupid as the conservatives did in the 90s.
 

Audioboxer

Member
a lot of south park fans get outraged when their favourite show is called out for being alt-right

In the same way South Park fans pushed back against this

As the series first became popular in the United States, several schools have punished students for wearing South Park-related T-shirts, while a group of school principals in New Jersey mounted a small campaign to notify parents of the show's content. Hickory Flat Elementary School in Cherokee County, Georgia issued a ban on wearing any South Park clothing.[5][9][10] In a 1999 poll conducted by NatWest Bank, eight and nine-year-old children in the United Kingdom voted South Park's character Eric Cartman as their favorite personality. This drew the concern of several parent councils who were expecting a children's television show character to top the list, and the headmaster of a Cambridgeshire public school urged parents to prevent their children from watching the show.[11] Parker and Stone, who are not opposed to allowing kids to watch the show, assert however that the show is not meant to be viewed by kids, and the show is almost always rated TV-MA,[10][12] while being accompanied by the following warning: "All characters and events in this show—even those based on real people—are entirely fictional. All celebrity voices are impersonated... poorly. The following program contains coarse language and due to its content it should not be viewed by anyone"

The conservative advocacy group Parents Television Council has frequently criticized South Park for "over-the-top vulgar content" and "tastelessness", condemning the show as a "curdled, malodorous black hole of Comedy Central vomit" that "shouldn't have been made".[13] [13][14] Among the episodes that the PTC has criticized include, according to columns by its advisor and former president L. Brent Bozell III:

"It Hits the Fan" for excessive use of the expletive "shit".[15]
"Proper Condom Use" for depiction of teaching sex education to young children.[16]

Action for Children's Television founder Peggy Charren claimed that the show's use of language and racial slurs represents the depravity of Western civilization, and is "dangerous to the democracy".[9][17]

Several other Christian activist groups have protested the show's parodies of Christianity-related matter and portrayal of Jesus Christ—whom South Park has depicted saying "Goddamn", shooting and stabbing other characters, and as unable to perform actual miracles.[3] In its review of the South Park movie, the ChildCare Action Project stated that children who watch either the show or film would have their efforts to "understand or [develop] an understanding of the Gospel" hindered or corrupted.[18] The Christian Family Network prepared an educational guide on how to "protect our youth from vile trash like South Park", and claims their efforts to "restore morality, and protect life for the individual, family, and community" would be impeded if children watched the series.[9]

Matt Stone insists that "[kids] don't have any kind of social tact or etiquette", and claims that parents who disapprove of South Park for its portrayal of how kids behave are upset because they "have an idyllic vision of what kids are like".[5][11]

Several groups have called for a boycott of the show, its sponsors, and the networks which air it. For instance, in late 2008, a group of prosecutors in Moscow, on behalf of Muslim activists and members of the Russian Pentecostalist Church, sought to have the Russian channel 2×2 closed in an attempt to prevent them from broadcasting the series, which they claimed promoted "hatred between religions". Their appeal was rejected by Russian media officials, and the channel's broadcasting license was extended until 2013.[19][20] Aside from the efforts in Russia, no group or individual in a country where the show is aired has mounted a significant campaign to ban the series and its availability on home media entirely.[5][12][21][22]

A Canadian judge in the Calgary Judicial District has described South Park as a "vulgar, socially irreverent program that contributes nothing to society." [23]

In India, South Park is banned. According to VH1 India's channel head Ferzad Palia, the show was banned on grounds of vulgarity after being reviewed by the Indian Ministry of Broadcasting.[24]

Several Roman Catholics took offense at the season nine (2005) finale "Bloody Mary".[68] In the episode, a statue of the Virgin Mary is portrayed as releasing copious amounts of actual blood while undergoing overt menstruation; characters had declared the phenomenon a miracle when they initially thought the blood was flowing from her rectum. Another scene features Pope Benedict XVI closely inspecting the anal and vaginal regions of the statue and being sprayed with blood. The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights demanded an apology from Comedy Central and unsuccessfully campaigned to have the episode both removed permanently from the network's rotation and never be made available on DVD.[50][68][69] Viacom board member Joseph A. Califano, Jr. and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops issued formal complaints with then-Viacom CEO Tom Freston.[3][22][70]

In February 2006, leaders from the New Zealand Catholic Bishops' Conference, the Council of Christians and Muslims, and other religious groups together lobbied media conglomerate CanWest to stop the episode's debut airing and potential rebroadcasts in New Zealand on the music channel C4, while protesters condemned the lobby for attempting to take advantage of the New Zealand people's lack of a guaranteed right to the freedom of speech. The network rejected the plea, and was allowed to air the episode, doing so ahead of schedule to take advantage of the media attention surrounding the campaign.[71][72][73]

Just because some people think they're right this time with the alt-right accusations, doesn't necessarily make them any more right than the moral panic above by Conservative adults/parents/religious speakers.
 

groansey

Member
Probably because they don't think it is, and they aren't themselves.

If it's not alt-right (and I don't think it is), then you have to concede that it's pretty stupid - in that accusations of fence-sitting are justified and the contrarian approach is pretty dumb and dissatisfying way of handling current affairs topics.

Maybe it should stick to anal probes and chicken fuckers.
 
If it's not alt-right (and I don't think it is), then you have to concede that it's pretty stupid - in that accusations of fence-sitting are justified and the contrarian approach is pretty dumb and dissatisfying way of handling current affairs topics.

Maybe it should stick to anal probes and chicken fuckers.
Why exactly is that dumb and dissatisfying? Not liking the plots and where they go is one thing, but demanding the show makes some statement for one side or the other is just ridiculous.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
If it's not alt-right (and I don't think it is), then you have to concede that it's pretty stupid - in that accusations of fence-sitting are justified and the contrarian approach is pretty dumb and dissatisfying way of handling current affairs topics.

Maybe it should stick to anal probes and chicken fuckers.
South Park isn't alt right (not targeted to you but anyone that remotely thinks so), how on earth did this absurd notion come about? I'm not saying this in defence of the show I'm saying this because anyone that thinks this has no idea what the alt right even truly is. We're talking about literally the most depraved sick and twisted individual without an an ounce of self reflection and is malignant down to it's very core with very obvious gials and obscurification to reach those goals.

Have you visited an alt right board before? Gives of scrum and villain would be an understatement. South Park is absurdist and mildly conservative but it doesn't have very obvious and poorly hidden maglinant goals.

On the crux of your argument shows are allowed to be dumb and shitty. The issue is nefarious goals. Both sides is a extremely stupid but there's a difference between genuinely thinking both sides and using it as an excuse to further extremism.
 

groansey

Member
Why exactly is that dumb and dissatisfying? Not liking the plots and where they go is one thing, but demanding the show makes some statement for one side or the other is just ridiculous.

Because some of it's targets are actually nefarious and some are relatively innocuous. If their stance is anybody but us is fair game as long as we think they're annoying or find it funny, then that's essentially ignorant, mean-spirited and yes, dumb and dissatisfying.

Calling bullies "necessary dicks" and their opponents "pussies", doesn't make you an impartial wise-ass, it makes you a dick.
 

Palmer27

Member
The show's more libertarian than liberal, which is now right of much of the American audience.
20 years later the characters and setting are no longer satirically relevant in and of themselves. I think this is probably why the politics now feel superimposed.
 

hotcyder

Member
Read the article - agreed with most points, though the moment he says this;

Animated series like Rick and Morty and Bojack Horseman tackle many of the same issues as South Park, and with a refreshing helping of nuance

I gave up.

Bojack Horseman is probably one of the most overrated shows I have the unfortunate to have to hear about on a nearly daily basis. It's depiction of depression is shallow and it seems more than happy to just let that be the basis of every episode, rather than do anything constructive with the premise.

I'm surprised no one's posted the Rick and Morty copypasta yet because it's so on point about fans of the show. It's futurama hooked on the smell of it's own farts.

and the writing of both are bad. Captial B bad. It's shitty meme culture as a segue into a 14 year old boys deep philosophical leanings. They're juvenile inside and out.
 

Kyzer

Banned
South Parks whole thing is not having nuance. They throw the metaphor ib your face so that even the biggest idiot gets whats going on, its part of the comedy. They literally have people choose between a douche and a turd sandwich in an election, if you watch south park and are like wow that was not clever nor nuanced enough I have to question what in the world you thought south park was, which used to literally only be about little kids cursing and going on completely inappropriate and immature hijinx


Theres a fucking singing piece of poop

You guys are overthinking this. An entire editorial laying out the argument that south park is not subversive is so ridiculously unnecessary everyone who watches the show knows this. This is south park, where santa and jesus fight to the death in front of children. Its probably not for you if you are nitpicking at its political commentary saying its not as clever as it tries to be. Its like criticizing Tim and Eric for not being funny, and writing an editorial laying out in clear terms that you believe it to be weird and awkward. No way really!?

They're juvenile inside and out.

Thats the whole point its an adult swim cartoon based on a short of a grandpa telling his grandson to suck his balls

Not everything is supposed to be a progressive intellectual think piece

If you are looking to Rick n Morty or South Park to be witty political science the problem isnt them, its you
 

groansey

Member
and the writing of both are bad. Captial B bad. It's shitty meme culture as a segue into a 14 year old boys deep philosophical leanings. They're juvenile inside and out.

So which cartoons have good writing then?

I just watched S3E04 of R&M, the writing is razor sharp and more complex than anything SP attempts. I don't see how you could call it bad at all.
 

Violet_0

Banned
So which cartoons have good writing then?

I just watched S3E04 of R&M, the writing is razor sharp and more complex than anything SP attempts. I don't see how you could call it bad at all.

I think you'll really enjoy episode 7

this thread already has more pages than the OT. I don't know about the viewership numbers, but it seems like South Park has lost it's thunder to the new hot shows R&M and Bojack
 
I just watched S3E04 of R&M, the writing is razor sharp and more complex than anything SP attempts. I don't see how you could call it bad at all.

You literally just cited the worst episode of the series, a half-baked, runoriginal superhero "parody" with one of the shows title character's having his worst aspects cranked up to 11 with none of the things that usually mitigate his awfulness, as an example of how the writing is "razor sharp and more complex."

2591771-c-mon-son-o.gif


At least use Rick Potion #9 or Auto Erotic Assimilation if you're gonna make those claims.
 

groansey

Member
You literally just cited the worst episode of the series, a half-baked, runoriginal superhero "parody" with one of the shows title character's having his worst aspects cranked up to 11 with none of the things that usually mitigate his awfulness, as an example of how the writing is "razor sharp and more complex."

2591771-c-mon-son-o.gif


At least use Rick Potion #9 or Auto Erotic Assimilation if you're gonna make those claims.

I disagree with everything in this post, comic book guy.
 
He ends up being the hero at the end of the season and one of the few people with pure intentions.

As usual the complaints seem to be about a character simply existing at opposed to what that character is used for.

Yeah i never understood those comments on PC Principle, people are either forgetting the plot line or they simply haven't watched the whole season. But his character was pretty much the only "good" guy in town by the end of the season, doesn't mean his character wasn't flawed but his intentions were pure.

On topic though this article is poorly written and sourced, there's so many logical mistakes in there it makes me question the intentions of the article and whether this person had an agenda because their conclusion to the shows politics doesn't even fit within the theme of the show itself.
 
Yeah i never understood those comments on PC Principle, people are either forgetting the plot line or they simply haven't watched the whole season. But his character was pretty much the only sane guy in town by the end of the season, doesn't mean his character wasn't flawed but his intentions were pure.

Which can sometimes describe PC.
 
Which can sometimes describe PC.

Huh? Did you misquote me? Because my post does not describe what PC means at all and never tried to, PC means politically correct and has a very distinct meaning which i'm well aware of.

In that post you quoted of mine I was talking about how people usually assume that PC Principal was a designed by Matt and Trey only to mock PC culture and that he had no redeeming qualities as a character. But in reality his character was the only good guy in town and his intentions were pure unlike other people claiming to be PC (his frat).

Not trying to attack you with this post, i just think you might have misunderstood me with my first post.
 

Real Hero

Member
'The show's hackneyed treatment of race makes sense considering South Park has never been terribly successful at addressing anything outside its very tiny universe. An upcoming video game based on the series attempts to present a woke understanding of the issue by making it harder to play as the black character, mimicking with some very odd logic, the conditions of real life. The move was inspired by a blog post by the science fiction writer John Scalzi, whose 2012 post ”Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is" compared white privilege to video games. Well-intended as it may be, the joke ostensibly lampoons white nerds but ends up also isolating black video game players who are typically faced with no options for characters that look like them'

This is so dumb. He's basically arguing never make jokes about issues because that way you highlight an issue TOO MUCH.
 

Cromat

Member
These South Park articles are getting old. If you rely on South Park as your moral compass then you're an idiot. The show's first and foremost criteria (as it says so itself) is whether it's funny or not. It's not about a perfect-pitch analysis of every single social issue. I also like how the author uses the word "subversive" to mean "agrees with my views".
 
I feel like I've read this article (and this thread) about 800 times already.

PC Principal really hit some people a bit too close to home, huh
 
Huh? Did you misquote me? Because my post does not describe what PC means at all and never tried to, PC means politically correct and has a very distinct meaning which i'm well aware of.

In that post you quoted of mine I was talking about how people usually assume that PC Principal was a designed by Matt and Trey only to mock PC culture and that he had no redeeming qualities as a character. But in reality his character was the only good guy in town and his intentions were pure unlike other people claiming to be PC (his frat).

Not trying to attack you with this post, i just think you might have misunderstood me with my first post.

I was just trying to draw a connection to your description of PC Principal (which I think is spot on as someone who also watched the entire season) and being PC in general, which I think Matt and Trey were trying to make themselves. As someone who spends far too much time responding to shit heads on Twitter who both say awful things and cry about Political Correctness, I am willing to admit that at times that flawed but pure intentions can apply to PC as well.
 

sibarraz

Banned
Is impressive how lots of people had their "Chef" moment when everything is cool and wit until it touches an issue that hits too close at home
 
> The raunchy animated series enters its 21st season, and it’s unclear why.



Because it still makes a ton of money.


This article is reason number whatever for why liberals can be ridiculous.
 
I feel like I've read this article (and this thread) about 800 times already.

PC Principal really hit some people a bit too close to home, huh

It's an old Sartre situation. The anguish of man. Man isn't defined until he is truly himself, and until he is truly himself, he is only a projection of what he wants to be.

Identity Crisis.

"Everything happens to every man as if the entire human race were staring at him and measuring itself by what he does."

PC Principal is the lampooning of some one playing a character or a stereotype instead of simply being that person.

Other similar falsers are going to also feel attacked when PC Principal is attacked.
 
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