brandonh83
Banned
...is not really an argument as explained
This show belongs to several people. Abrams and Kasdan just got the ball rolling. Yeah he established some mysteries, but not alone.
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi Official Teaser
- Thread starter FelipeMGM
- Start date
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...is not really an argument as explained
This show belongs to several people. Abrams and Kasdan just got the ball rolling. Yeah he established some mysteries, but not alone.
obin_gam
Member
It has been stated by the Star Wars story groups and Kennedy aswell that "the saga films are about the skywalker lineage"
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
Why does that mean she has to be the daughter of a Skywalker though?
We already have 3 Skywalkers in prominent roles in the trilogy right now.
Three.
One of which is Rey's mentor, another is her nemesis, and she began to form a bond with the third over the death of Han, who she viewed as a father figure and who is also part of the Skywalker family by fathering one and marrying another. Skywalkers are already all over this trilogy and nearly all of Rey's relationships outside of Finn are with someone in the family or associated with it.
She doesn't need to be Skywalker in name and bloodline for that statement to be true. She doesn't even need to be a Skywalker in name or blood to become part of the Skywalker family, because she basically already is.
Dear God, this sentiment seriously needs to stop.
Really: stop worrying about it.
Because Mark has also said once he got past his knee jerk reaction, when he really looked at what Rian was doing and got into the script, he changed his mind and his fears went away. And he has repeatedly praised Rian as the best director he has ever worked with. He called the man GOD.
I do agree that the Jedi Order as it is needs to be rebuilt and learn from all of its mistakes. Just drives me crazy people flock to the concept of the Grey Jedi who can just use everything as if it is some great answer.
Clone Wars Season 6 showed to some degree just how far the Jedi had fallen. Even Yoda had the dark side in him and he had to purge it. The Dark side within him was clearly also what had infected the Jedi as a whole and it was Pride, Arrogance etc.
The Jedi denied their Humanity in pursuit of a supposed superiority because the lesson they learned from Jedi failings in the past was that being like everyone else was the problem. Jedi Order needs to learn not everyone is perfect and they will have moments where things aren't perfect and not overreact which seems to be what the Jedi always did.
obin_gam
Member
What Mark wanted was to turn Luke into a sith basically.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Pretty much. To sum it up, they felt the best way to resist the temptation of the dark side was to avoid being tempted at all. Rather than conquer your fears, don't even acknowledge those fears as having any real merit.
In a way, it is an approach that speaks to an Order that thought itself triumphant. If all the Sith are destroyed, then the most probable place that someone who could contest the Jedi would come from, is within the Jedi themselves, would be the thinking. The idea of a competent threat external of themselves was alien.
Edit: In a way really, it's a minor theme of the franchise. Thinking one's self above evil to the point it's impossible for one's self is one of the easiest ways to let evil win - because you have no idea what it's capable of and you won't recognise it, whether in yourself or others.
It could swing both ways, I guess.
What's interesting in this teaser is that Luke states that the Jedi have to "end". Snoke picked Ben because he was the right material between Light and Dark. Snoke might've found the perfect balance in Ben Solo. Could be that Luke figured this out too, thus ending the Jedi because they only focussed on the Light-Side of the Force.
I ... I think it's happening. After 8, the term Jedi or Sith will be extinct.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
It's been reiterated by multiple people a thousand times by now, but I'd like to chime in anyway and say that "balance" isn't a perfect balance of the scales between the light and dark side of the force. "The force" is basically life itself, creation, order, rightness, light, etc. The "light side" is the force. The dark side is a cancer, an illness, a corruption of what it's intended to be. A "grey jedi" as has been established in (former) series canon would technically be a danger to the balance of the force, as they don't see a need to uphold the light side or reject the dark side.
The Jedi Order was not the light side (although they claimed they were), they were a group of people who formed together to keep the force in balance. They were stewards of the force and prone to human error, which is something they didn't want to accept, as they came to see themselves as the personification of goodness/the light side itself. The order collapsed on itself, with Anakin as the catalyst, because it became too stuffy, arrogant, and prideful. It denied its members human emotions and severely overreacted at breach of protocol. Qui-gon and Anakin were seen as free thinkers and somewhat heretical because they wanted to accept their humanity in addition to protecting the force, while Windu, Yoda and the others stifled their attempts to do so because they were too caught up in tradition. Yoda tells Luke to re-establish this order, and it fails. Luke's line that the Jedi must end most likely indicates that he wants to go down a different path, one that is truly in line with the light side and not held back by any of the baggage the old Jedi Order had.
Either that, or it's a temporary lapse in faith due to his failure that he overcomes over the course of the movie. Or both.
There, I've fulfilled my role as Parrot #4563535 on this idea.
The Jedi Order was not the light side (although they claimed they were), they were a group of people who formed together to keep the force in balance. They were stewards of the force and prone to human error, which is something they didn't want to accept, as they came to see themselves as the personification of goodness/the light side itself. The order collapsed on itself, with Anakin as the catalyst, because it became too stuffy, arrogant, and prideful. It denied its members human emotions and severely overreacted at breach of protocol. Qui-gon and Anakin were seen as free thinkers and somewhat heretical because they wanted to accept their humanity in addition to protecting the force, while Windu, Yoda and the others stifled their attempts to do so because they were too caught up in tradition. Yoda tells Luke to re-establish this order, and it fails. Luke's line that the Jedi must end most likely indicates that he wants to go down a different path, one that is truly in line with the light side and not held back by any of the baggage the old Jedi Order had.
Either that, or it's a temporary lapse in faith due to his failure that he overcomes over the course of the movie. Or both.
There, I've fulfilled my role as Parrot #4563535 on this idea.
brandonh83
Banned
The most amusing thing is that people apparently believe that Mark or anyone would come out and say "oh yeah I don't like it at all!" eight months before its debut. Really dudes? Sure he's been a bit candid, but as EXE pointed out, he was just truthfully telling us his initial opinion that did in fact change down the line.
If anything this should make us MORE excited--
and what have some people been complaining about in regards to VII? Something about how it "plays it too safe?" And now some are concerned about some risk taking.
If anything this should make us MORE excited--
and what have some people been complaining about in regards to VII? Something about how it "plays it too safe?" And now some are concerned about some risk taking.
O. Don't get wrong. I'm excited as fuck for The Last Jedi.
I think it's because of the character and my "wishes" to see on screen. I mean, I never thought we would get a sequel trilogy. Let alone see all these characters on the big screen again.
It has been 30 years since Return of the Jedi since we last saw Luke Skywalker. I really hope he has been training himself to become the most powerful Force user alive (not that that is a hard thing to do after 6 though). I'd hate to see him getting killed off in Episode 8 or 9. That's my main fear. I'd like to see him being a total badass when he needs to be. Show that he has mastered every single aspect of the Force. But then again, that would pull you right out of the movie.
We all knew Han Solo had to die at some point. His arc was done. Harrison wanted the character dead years ago and it would't suprise if that was a "part of the deal" for him to play the role again. That being said, we don't need a major death in Episode 8 or 9 (with the death of Carrie though, things could have been changed). All I hope is that, by the end of Episode 9, we have and ending to the Skywalker saga.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
I think "Grey Jedi" is a catch all term people use to describe something new outside of the traditional old school Jedi dynamic, so it doesn't bother me in that context.
To be honest, I'm way more concerned with them adding a sub-par defacto origin for the Jedi/Force. The original Knights of the Old Republic comics did a really good job of adding an interesting exotic history while still leaving a lot of mystery, IMO the Force/Jedi/etc work better that way.
We have 7 films now that focus around the Jedi/Sith.
Anakin was supposed to be the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force.
He turned out to be the Chosen One because he restored the Sith to "former glory" by wiping out nearly every Jedi.
Luke, in Obi-Wan's eyes, is the real Chosen One. But, unlike his father, Luke destroyed the Sith instead of the Jedi. Thus, restoring the balance for the Jedi.
If you take both these "purgings" into consideration... the balance remained intact.
After 30 years (ROTJ > TFA) Luke might have come to realise that the Jedi focussed on the good aspect of the Force and neglected to study the Dark Side. I mean, there was a Sith Lord under their noses for ... what? 20 years? They didn't have a clue because they did not understand the Dark Side. Nor it's powers. The thing Snoke states is interesting;
"It is where you are from. What you are made of. The dark side—and the light. The finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. He must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work."
Hell, Snoke could've found a way before Luke did. Luke made the same damn mistake Yoda (and other members of the Council) did by allowing a Sith to manipulate an apprentice. Luke, essentialy, made the same mistake as all other Jedi did.
Obi-Wan trained Anakin. Anakin destroys the Jedi.
Luke trains Ben Solo. Ben destroys the Jedi.
Still, I'd love to know for how long Snoke has been alive. If he was alive during the time Sidious was ruling the galaxy ... I wonder why it was never mentioned before. I hope they say Snoke is not some sort of Ancient-Jedi. Because if he is ... he'd be over 900 years old. Yes, over 900. Yoda would've known him ...
I do think that the question of Rey's parentage was deliberately incepted into the mass psyche. There are literally 3 points in the movie where someone says, "Who's the girl?/What girl?" followed by a hard cut to Rey without an explanation. I think "they" wanted the fanbase to debate about this.
Now why they wanted us to debate it is unclear to me (obviously). Do they have a great twist planned concerning it? Or is it just a red herring for something else that they're using to distract until the next movies? If it's completely nothing, then I think it's kind of a missed opportunity, but if VIII is great it ultimately won't matter.
I'm excited as hell to find out what they have planned.
Again, this dialogue was most likely cut and edited to sound like the way it does now. Might be that Luke says to Rey : "It is time for the Jedi ... to put this conflict, to an end."
Chuckie
Member
Yeah could very well be. In the trailer of RotS it showed this cool sequence where you saw Darth Vader on the operating table put in an up right position slowly while you heard Palpatine say: Rise Lord Vader!
And we all know what we actually got.
Might as well be "It is time for the Jedi ... to end ... what they started.".
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
There's a difference playing with lines for dramatic effect in a trailer and just literally lying to the audience. Obviously it's edited for the trailer to have a more impactful editing, and perhaps the context of the line(s) is different, but this is still something that is being presented as core to the premise of the movie. It's not a trick. Luke definitely wants the Jedi to end, even if he may not say it exactly like that in that exact context.
Could be just Luke refusing to train Rey with this exact line. Only to change his mind 5 minutes later. Hopefully it's much better than that though.
Like I said before. Luke could very well have learned that the Jedi way of "teaching" is something that ... well, doesn't work. It's old ... the only available knowledge is that of the Light Side and if you want to learn the Dark Side, you'll get expelled from the Jedi Council (see Qui-Gonn and Dooku). The Jedi were against EVERYTHING relating to the Dark-Side. I mean, They took Anakin and trained him to become a Jedi despite Yoda and Mace Windu being against it. Anakin was the beginning of the end for the Jedi. That, and Sidious was right in front of them, orchesting every move to bring the Jedi down.
Luke does, in fact, starts to train Rey but with his own spin on it. He could very well train her to be in tune with both the Light and Dark side aspect of the Force. The quote from Snoke (which I posted earlier) could be because Snoke too realises that relying on 1 aspect of the Force will eventually be his own undoing.
"Breath. Now ... what do you see?"
"I see ... Light ... and Darkness"
"... it's so much bigger"
Can Crusher
Banned
I have a feeling Disney wants to eliminate the whole Jedi/Sith thing, and establish Force users/Non force users. Less narratives constraints, blows the Star Wars universe wide open, and now everbody gets a lightsaber and powers.
Imagine how many more toys they can sell.
Imagine how many more toys they can sell.
Lifejumper
Member
Kathleen said that Rian isnt afraid to move SW to a more complex universe.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
Lucasfilm.
UnknownSpirit
Member
I said this in another conversation but I have a feeling that this movie is going to do something unexpected. Something different.
What that is, I don't have a clue.. it's been stated that the third act is super locked down and no many people know what happens.
I have a feeling that it's going to do something some people will hate. Espically now, with some part of the fandom rejecting the idea that there is a person who can be in "the middle."
What that is, I don't have a clue.. it's been stated that the third act is super locked down and no many people know what happens.
I have a feeling that it's going to do something some people will hate. Espically now, with some part of the fandom rejecting the idea that there is a person who can be in "the middle."
Jimmy Smits would know since he was there at birth?
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
Space Jimmy Smits got Death Star'd
Chuckie
Member
He got blown up on Alderaan though.
greatestjediever
Member
Does anyone else feel like the new movies should include more dope Star Wars last names? We got Poe Dameron, Maz Kanata and technically Kylo Ren.
I don't care who Rey ends up being related to or what name she or Finn take. I just like the dorky cool Star Wars surnames. We need more of them, not less. Rose is an okay character name, just give me a neat last name to flesh it out, too!
I don't care who Rey ends up being related to or what name she or Finn take. I just like the dorky cool Star Wars surnames. We need more of them, not less. Rose is an okay character name, just give me a neat last name to flesh it out, too!
Sapiens
Member
I'm sorry, did Lucasfilm buy Lucasfilm from George Disney?
Killer Queen
Banned
The Jedi are definitely done.
The film is called The Last Jedi
It's been established that Luke is The Last Jedi
meaning Rey can't be the last jedi, or that it could be a fake out and his new order are simply called the last jedi. Luke, is the last jedi, full stop, singular.
The film is called The Last Jedi
It's been established that Luke is The Last Jedi
meaning Rey can't be the last jedi, or that it could be a fake out and his new order are simply called the last jedi. Luke, is the last jedi, full stop, singular.
Or the eps 8 will focus on Luke, The Last Jedi.
If the Jedi is done, the title would be The Last Of The Jedi.
I wouldn't say that either one constrains where they could go with it. Both are ambiguous between Luke being the last Jedi ever and Luke being the last Jedi alive.
Rian Johnson, he said Luke is the last Jedi.
phazedplasma
Member
Or Luke gets killed by Kylo and the KoR and the capture Rey turning her to the Dark Side.
Then Finn would be the lsat Jedi.
Killer Queen
Banned
The Last of the Jedi would imply multiple. Rian Johnson said in his mind its singular and that the last Jedi is Luke. It's even stated in EP7 that Luke is the last Jedi.
Now keep that in mind when you hear Luke say "The only truth I know is, its time for the Jedi to end"
Meaning he's not going to train a new Jedi. The fact that Kathleen Kennedy has said that Rian Johnson isn't afraid to add complexity to the star wars universe makes me firmly believe that the next two films (Both stories written by Johnson) are going to change or expand on a lot of the fundamentals of the star wars universe, the force in particular and that the Sith and the Jedi are pretty much done, but we'll see the forming of new orders.
TheOctodad
Member
I fully expect a greater outside threat.
One that allows/forces ambiguous alliances and reveals that the dark side wasn't totally bad and was trying to unify a force and a weapon big enough to defeat them. Hence the reason for repeated attempts at super weapons.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The last Jedi
Can still teach
A new hope
In the ways of the Force.
Also, where are the outlets still chopping up Hamill's quotes and presenting them as a warning? Aside from that trash ass YouTube channel, I'm not seeing where this skewed narrative is being presented by press, enthusiast or otherwise.
It just seems weird that a steady stream of people the past 2 days would be finding the full context somewhere and just... Stopping halfway through in a panic to report back to the rest of us.
Can still teach
A new hope
In the ways of the Force.
Also, where are the outlets still chopping up Hamill's quotes and presenting them as a warning? Aside from that trash ass YouTube channel, I'm not seeing where this skewed narrative is being presented by press, enthusiast or otherwise.
It just seems weird that a steady stream of people the past 2 days would be finding the full context somewhere and just... Stopping halfway through in a panic to report back to the rest of us.
A person of color as the last Jedi? Are you nuts? I wish but nah.
So Rey is unrelated to the Skywalkers and Snoke is just some random bad guy.
One of the two has to have some connection to the main storyline, right?
I haven't watched TFA in a long time but is it established that Kylo Ren is without a doubt Han and Leia's son? I know they call him their son but what if he is actually Luke's son that they raised in an attempt to hide him from the dark side? Maybe Leia or Han was infertile and Luke wanted them to raise the kid while he still played an important role in his life. Or maybe there were twins and Luke raised Rey while the Solos raised Ben. It's a loooong stretch but I feel like there's going to be some connection between Rey and the other characters somewhere.
One of the two has to have some connection to the main storyline, right?
I haven't watched TFA in a long time but is it established that Kylo Ren is without a doubt Han and Leia's son? I know they call him their son but what if he is actually Luke's son that they raised in an attempt to hide him from the dark side? Maybe Leia or Han was infertile and Luke wanted them to raise the kid while he still played an important role in his life. Or maybe there were twins and Luke raised Rey while the Solos raised Ben. It's a loooong stretch but I feel like there's going to be some connection between Rey and the other characters somewhere.
Just going to randomly throw out there that I wouldn't be surprised if Ep. IX was called Balance of the Force. Just because some of the first lines in TFA are, "Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force", and I like the idea of both titles hinted at between that and the opening crawl (The Last Jedi).
That opening scene may have kind of laid out the thematic line the whole trilogy hangs on, actually.
That opening scene may have kind of laid out the thematic line the whole trilogy hangs on, actually.
Finn is not a Jedi and by all indications does not have force abilities nor will he in TLJ. He is just Finn.
Pray4Luke
Balance of the Force is a cool title but I have strange gut aversion to reusing nouns from other Star Wars titles. "The Last Jedi" slightly triggers me.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Or meaning Luke is merely the only/last Jedi at the time Episode 8 takes place.
There is very little chance that the committee that dictates these movie's stories has the stones to end the Jedi, and even if they did, it wouldn't be longer than a one movie fake out. The word "Jedi" has too much pop culture and marketing pull for them to ever retire it fully.
Disney trying to reinvent the wheel is absolutely counter to the point of them buying ultra-established mega-franchises in the first place.
Kaneda Shotaro
Member
The only thing those flashbacks showed were memories attached to Anakin's lightsaber. They've shown you can attach force memories to objects in Rebels. Why would Anakin's lightsaber have a memory of her as a child unless she knew someone connected to it? My guess is she's a nobody but she did train with Luke as a child. Why she's so important that she had to be dropped off or had her memory wiped, that's what I'm interested in. Maybe she's related to the first Jedi in history and Luke didn't want her going to the dark side because she's so powerful?
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