Support NeoGAF

[Nuu]

For me it's a real shame that ArcSys decided to imitate the same low-frame/budget-looking animation of GGX in Xrd. It does animate slightly better than the 2D games at least.

Fans of the series argue that the less animation frames actually lead to easier reads in the game. That it's jarring at times for a reason, so you can always tell what move the character is doing. Not saying I agree with it, it's just the argument.

What is inarguable though is that the game loses it's "2D look" once it animates with too many frames. This was talked about by the game's director at the Japanese version of the GDC.

 

[Pompadour]

The story behind this is so damn dope and funny; and shows crazy dedication.

So what's the story?

 

[NEO0MJ]

What is in arguable though is that the game loses it's "2D look" once it animates with too many frames. This was talked about by the game's director at the Japanese version of the GDC.

I think this was even mentioned in SFIV's development. Someone here mentioned additional details on that comment but they elude me right now.

So what's the story?

No one knows.

 

[ZeroMaverick]

The only pixel art game that comes close to being even in the same ballpark to SFIII's animation is Martial Masters.

Unfortunately, not all the animation is as consistent as the above.



I don't mean animation by frame count, but animation by squashing and stretching, which my gif demonstrates. Though the game does have it's moments.

That fuckin' pant leg on the dude in the middle!

 

[Stone Ocean]

This is DRASTICALLY minimizing the amount of work and effort put into them. There's nothing wrong with using reference models. Pixel art is primarily about using individual pixels/colors to convey detail and movement in a model. Whether the base is someone coming up with the anatomy and lighting from scratch or starting with a model, sketch, etc, it's still a difficult and complex process.

They used 3D models mostly for lighting/shadowing reference. It's all pixel art. It's not cheating.

Ah, I thought they used it for animations as well, my bad

Not minimizing the amount of work they took though, it's no secret KoF XII was borderline suicidal just for the character sprites alone.

 

[MrCarter]

are there more like this extracted from the background?

Only one I found to be honest. I would also like more of these idle/win/lose animations extracted from SFV so need to figure a way out to do it lol.

 

[Krammy]

Limps used for attacking being exaggerated and well defined to make it clearer to identify attacks in SF is not something I came up with but taken straight out of Capcom's mouth.

I'd like to see the source on this and to know whether it's referring to Street Fighter III or Capcom games in general.

Also, this is the size of Elena's hands, how are you going to draw five fingers at this pixel res:
IMAGE

Here's some crude examples I've made of adding fingers to her tiny hands. In the latter example, and her walk cycle in general, the shape would need to be changed because she suffers from a bad case of hoof hands, and it'd be pretty hard to draw accurate fingers on them. I'm sure if someone like me can add crude fingers, the wonder team of artists at Capcom could have done it with no problem.

Elena still gets well defined fingers when her hands are part of the key information/interest of the animation, like her win pose or when her fingers aren't closed together. Both Effie and Chun have bigger hands than Elena and, more importantly, their hands are used more in expressing their animation so they get more details there.

She has well defined fingers on a number of frames where the interest isn't on her hands, including a few where her hands are closed (like the 2-frame startup for her walk cycle).

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the matter because I simply don't buy the reasoning that her hands were too small or they wanted to make her attacks more defined. It's impossible for me to imagine that either issue would be a problem for the art team that made Street Fighter III.

 

[Ban Puncher]

Please keep UDON away from the SFIII sprites.

 

[zweifuss]

I agree. Sorry I have nothing else to contribute. But seeing these threads every year or so makes me keep up my website for another year. The sprite work and animations truly stand the test of time!

That being said, zweifuss.ca needs a revamp. Anyone know of any good sprite based frame works for websites I can use to really demonstrate the beauty of this masterpiece? I feel like the animated gifs don't do it justice.

 

[Chev]

KoF12 sprites are kinda cheating since they were basically made in 3D.

It's not cheating, and Blazblue does it too. Oldest known use of the technique is Art of Fighting 3.

Amazing stuff. Can anyone explain why animating sprites are so hard to draw?

They aren't. They fell out of favor, however, because from fifth to seventh gen console hardware was a poor fit for sprite-based games (necessary memory for raw sprites grows quadratically with resolution and those console all had comparatively little memory. With great programmers you can do it on the seventh gen, as Skullgirls shows, but that engine is particularly well made) and there was the advent of what an earlier link in the thread calls the "pixel tax", ie pixely graphics are considered by the mainstream as dated or, at best, retro, and are by default rated lower by many reviewers.

As a consequence it has become sort of a lost art, and it's much easier to find 3d animators nowadays than 2d animators, and especially 2d animators who can do pixel art animation. 3d animation for games is taught in schools, pixel animation isn't.

 

[L Thammy]

Well they upped the resolution significantly while maintaining the exact same number of frames, to maintain parity with the original, which was incredibly jarring. Not to mention, the Udon artstyle was kind of shitty and a huge step down from Capcom's internal artists, Kinu Nishimura, Bengus, and especially Daigo Ikeno who did the excellent portrait art for SF3

Besides Udon being shit, they're also not an animation studio, so them being used to create sprites naturally led to really poor consistency.

 

[tomwhite2004]

I'd like to see the source on this and to know whether it's referring to Street Fighter III or Capcom games in general.

Cacpom fighting games in general, its the best way to convey the information to the players.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-street-fighter-guide-capcom-still-uses-today

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016...him-everything-other-cast-members-didnt-have/

"Capcom's Yoshinori Ono explained that hands, feet and fireballs in the series have always been larger than they need to be, because they serve as visual markers on the screen to make it easier for players to follow attacks. "

 

[Pompadour]

No one knows.

This is unacceptable.

Also, to chime in, SF3 is my favorite fighting game and most of that is due to its GOAT animations. What really impresses me is the amount of detail they put into more subtle stuff like how the back of shotos' gis inflate violently from the pushback of hurling a hadoken. This game also has my favorite hitstun animations and by far the best opponent getting launched animations. The way the characters bounce when they hit the ground is beautiful.

Cacpom fighting games in general, its the best way to convey the information to the players.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-street-fighter-guide-capcom-still-uses-today

This isn't available in English anywhere, is it? I'm really interested in how fighting games convey information visually and this sounds like it would be a goldmine.

 

[Sorcerer Supreme]

Please keep UDON away from the SFIII sprites.

i think capcom wants nothing to do with sf3. they only ever shill sf2.

 

[Tizoc]

This is unacceptable.

Also, to chime in, SF3 is my favorite fighting game and most of that is due to its GOAT animations. What really impresses me is the amount of detail they put into more subtle stuff like how the back of shotos' gis inflate violently from the pushback of hurling a hadoken. This game also has my favorite hitstun animations and by far the best opponent getting launched animations. The way the characters bounce when they hit the ground is beautiful.

 

[L Thammy]

i think capcom wants nothing to do with sf3. they only ever shill sf2.

Street Fighter V uses a Ryu design that's a lot closer to III than what we've had before, it adds Urien, Alex, and Kolin. Does that not count?

 

[TGO]

Street Fighter 3 is still the pinnacle of sprite-based fighting games. I personally doubt its animation will ever be topped.

A hadoken alone is amazing to look at:

I remember reading Ryu's hadoken had 15frames alone compared to something like 4 in the previous games

 

[tomwhite2004]

This isn't available in English anywhere, is it? I'm really interested in how fighting games convey information visually and this sounds like it would be a goldmine.

Not that I know of, best place to find a translation if there is one would probably be somewhere like the forum over at mmcafe

 

[Pompadour]

Street Fighter V uses a Ryu design that's a lot closer to III than what we've had before, it adds Urien, Alex, and Kolin. Does that not count?

Well, considering SFV's reception this has probably reinforced their idea that everything SF3 is cursed.

 

[L Thammy]

Well, considering SFV's reception this has probably reinforced their idea that everything SF3 is cursed.

Also odd numbers. If Street Fighter 6 goes well we're getting 8 after.

 

[Mike M]

I remember reading Ryu's hadoken had 15frames alone compared to something like 4 in the previous games

Oh wow, I only just now noticed the shading changes to reflect that the fireball is a light source when he lets it fly.

 

[Sorcerer Supreme]

Street Fighter V uses a Ryu design that's a lot closer to III than what we've had before, it adds Urien, Alex, and Kolin. Does that not count?

V still takes place before 3 and they couldn't even bother to add one sf3 character to the base roster. where are the sf3 classic costumes for alex and ibuki that were announced almost a year ago? sf2 is also getting a new release this year for the 30th anniversary of street fighter.

it's to be expected of course given how much more popular 2 is. 3sOE even existing seems like miracle.

 

[Pompadour]

V still takes place before 3 and they couldn't even bother to add one sf3 character to the base roster. where are the sf3 classic costumes for alex and ibuki that were announced almost a year ago? sf2 is also getting a new release this year for the 30th anniversary of street fighter.

it's to be expected of course given how much more popular 2 is. 3sOE even existing seems like miracle.

16 characters is a perfectly fine launch line-up but I suspect if it wasn't for the CPT/Sony we would have got this game in 2017 with the 22 character Season 1 roster.

 

[Mabase]

I agree. Sorry I have nothing else to contribute. But seeing these threads every year or so makes me keep up my website for another year. The sprite work and animations truly stand the test of time!

That being said, zweifuss.ca needs a revamp. Anyone know of any good sprite based frame works for websites I can use to really demonstrate the beauty of this masterpiece? I feel like the animated gifs don't do it justice.

Holy shit you're Zweifuss from that website? I owe you eternal gratitiude for it. Have been working in the animation business for more than ten years and have used the SF III sprites from your site countless times, as reference, when reviewing animation and when teaching. It's been extremely helpful for a whole generation of animation students.
Cheers!

PS: I'm sorry, I can't answer your question.

 

[Tizoc]

Well, considering SFV's reception this has probably reinforced their idea that everything SF3 is cursed.

Are we really forgetting SF4 like that?

 

[lucebuce12]

Are we really forgetting SF4 like that?

I'm fine with it.

Only good thing about sf4 is juri and Abel.

 

[Scotia]

I'm fine with it.

Only good thing about sf4 is juri and Abel.

My man!

 

[Hotsuma]

It is almost funny remembering how much animation Capcom cut from certain characters when they cut and pasted sprites from their various games to work within Marvel vs Capcom 2. The first thing I noticed was how odd some of the Sentinel's attacks looked.

I wondered if Capcom could replicate the look and animation of Darkstalkers in a new sequel, but after seeing Morrigan and Hsien-Ko in Marvel vs Capcom 3, I'm not even sure I want to see them try.

 

[Tizoc]

It is almost funny remembering how much animation Capcom cut from certain characters when they cut and pasted sprites from their various games to work within Marvel vs Capcom 2. The first thing I noticed was how odd some of the Sentinel's attacks looked.

I wondered if Capcom could replicate the look and animation of Darkstalkers in a new sequel, but after seeing Morrigan and Hsien-Ko in Marvel vs Capcom 3, I'm not even sure I want to see them try.

Nah they did good with UMvC3's models, heck Sentinel even resembles his X-Men CotA animation.

 

[Pompadour]

It is almost funny remembering how much animation Capcom cut from certain characters when they cut and pasted sprites from their various games to work within Marvel vs Capcom 2. The first thing I noticed was how odd some of the Sentinel's attacks looked.

I wondered if Capcom could replicate the look and animation of Darkstalkers in a new sequel, but after seeing Morrigan and Hsien-Ko in Marvel vs Capcom 3, I'm not even sure I want to see them try.

Could they? I think so. But it would be a huge waste of money considering how niche Darkstalkers is in an already niche genre on top of how expensive it would be to accurately recreate the characters' transformations within their movesets in 3D. They'd need to do an GGXrd approach which is incompatible with DLC costumes (and Capcom is all about DLC costumes).

Honestly, outside of DS characters being used in the Vs. series they should lend them to ASW to be guest characters in Xrd or something. Or do a full-fledged crossover with an ASW game.

 

[Oemenia]

Well they upped the resolution significantly while maintaining the exact same number of frames, to maintain parity with the original, which was incredibly jarring. Not to mention, the Udon artstyle was kind of shitty and a huge step down from Capcom's internal artists, Kinu Nishimura, Bengus, and especially Daigo Ikeno who did the excellent portrait art for SF3

Fair enough but why do THDR's sprites have wrong AR as I heard that it was due to UDON's lack of experience in doing such work.

As a consequence it has become sort of a lost art, and it's much easier to find 3d animators nowadays than 2d animators, and especially 2d animators who can do pixel art animation. 3d animation for games is taught in schools, pixel animation isn't.

Thanks for info, didn't know that. I thought the sheer power now available would've solved that. Still though, why do BlazBlue's sprites animate so poorly when it's done by studio famed for doing just that.

 

[SixMachine]

Apples and oranges. Skullgirls is a tradigitial handdrawn animation. Blazblue is pixel art. You're comparing something utilizing Toon Boom that was drawn and filled in with paint, brushes, etc. And that was made dot by dot by something like Microsoft Paint.

I do wonder though if Skullgirls sprites will be a problem in the future. I mean did they use vector lines and paint so that the graphics would scale for 4K (8K?)?


Skullgirls comfortably surpassed it. The animations are way more complex and detailed. The game literally pushed 2D animation as far as it could go the point where the developers were taking OUT frames to make the animations more smooth.


This post is insane. Skullgirls animation is fluid as hell and all of the animations connect. Try doing moves in training mode and pausing the game multiple times during an animation.

We know Skullgirls sprites are done very well on a technical level, it has the most frames of animation and they are very high resolution. My post is not about that though. The thought I was touching on applies to visual medium in general. We already know if we pause through an animation we can see every detail and every frame that is made through it, but in practical play we don't do that. A film analogy is when Jackie Chan edits and films his scenes, he has to try to "show his hits" and not only that, he pauses on certain hits to emphasize impact (Every Frame a Painting has a video that dissects Jackie Chan's choreography, recommended because it is insightful and entertaining). Watching something play out is more than just a technical feat, since even modern films are more advanced and filmed on better quality cameras, the action scenes still don't have the impact and clarity from films Jackie Chan made 30 years ago.

When you are normally playing Skullgirls it honestly is lost most of the time, a lot of the attacks of being canceled and the moves don't have time to set in so to speak. While you do have animations being canceled into each other in 3S, it is clear enough to see what is going on and people can appreciate it in normal play, and the pace of the game allows you to see more and let the hits on the attacks. such as Q hammerfisting people into the ground, really bake for the whole animation. I guess in a way, 3S has better "choreography" to showcase the actions of the character. Which is fine, they are two really different kinds of fighter, and I think the more chaotic nature of Skullgirls' gameplay wouldn't really fit if they aesthetically tried to animate the motions in the way of 3S, which is slower.

In a way, it is something really hard to comment on since it is something more artistic than technical. It's a sentiment that I know some other people have noticed and touched upon.

 

[Soulstar]

One of the little details in Street Fighter 3 that I loved and that Capcom totally missed in Street Fighter 4 is Makoto's Idle stance.

In Third Strike Makoto stands absolutely still and the only movement is the wind blowing her Gi and hair. She is the only character that stays absolutely motionless but in Street Fighter 4 she actually moves.

 

[NastyBook]

I absolutely loved the sprites in SF3 but I can't deny Capcom did a great job on the 3D models in SFV reminiscent to that detailed 2D-animation from the past.

THIS. Everything about Bison's animations reminds me of his SFII movie version. Especially that shit eating grin. It's unquestionably the best version of him in the entire series.

 

[Randam]

The story behind this is so damn dope and funny; and shows crazy dedication.

FFS, why would you even submit a post like this?

Gotta find the link but long story short. Dudley originally didn't throw a flower but one of the juniors suggested it, but in order to add it they had to program new tech to handle it.

Thanks..

 

[MomoPufflet]

One significant fly in the ointment for me with 3S was that a lot of the backgrounds were a step back from previous installments. Ibuki and Elena's stages were monochromatic bores, and characters sharing backgrounds like it was Street Fighter Alpha 1 and not the third version of the game was inexcusable (Yang and Yun excepted).

I never understood why they downgraded the backgrounds from NG. Didn't play 3rd Strike that much but in 2nd impact it's like they removed all the motion and life out of the NG backgrounds. Made no sense.

 

[spazchicken]

Yeah, I couldn't find any information on this, but I agree that something must have been done to get Elena's animations. She's also lacking lots of details like fingers and toes in most frames, and for that reason, she's my least favourite character in the game in terms of graphics.

That idle animation is the fullest and most fluent in the game. I've always understood why she's lacking finer details like fingers for this particular animation. It would be an insane amount of work or they tried and gave up. You can see that they tried a little.

Also they obviously rotoscoped someone doing this.

As for her other animation, I'm thinking consistency is the reason? I don't know.

 

[Pompadour]

One of the little details in Street Fighter 3 that I loved and that Capcom totally missed in Street Fighter 4 is Makoto's Idle stance.

In Third Strike Makoto stands absolutely still and the only movement is the wind blowing her Gi and hair. She is the only character that stays absolutely motionless but in Street Fighter 4 she actually moves.

My guess is animating her gi and hair was too difficult so they had to have her body move because her being completely static would make her look odd.

 

[Pliny The Elder]

the animation in SFIII still the best I have seen, and we will never see that level of attention to detail from a capcom fighter again.

 

[Coreda]

Ah, I thought they used it for animations as well, my bad.

It was both. A set of 3D animations were created to provide consistent movements between all the characters and 'eliminate style differences' between artists. These animations were then used as the basis for building upon with the 2D sprite work, in addition to providing the form of the characters prior to adding all the additional details.

Enormous amount of effort went into it either way.

 

[sixteen-bit]

the animation in SFIII still the best I have seen, and we will never see that level of attention to detail from a capcom fighter again.

...SFV