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[SarusGray]

I'm probably not going to buy this game just because of that. I love jrpgs but can't play a game that includes a regressive theme that sent gay people spiraling down a deep well of depression and into suicide. You would think a game of this caliber in this year would be better than that but unfortunately I have to remember racism and homophobia still are rampant in our society.

I would hate a teen or someone play the game and look at those gay portrayals as who we are.

 

[RocBase]

Did anyone else feel like these issues in the series, as well as the issues with women, were rarely more than a footnote (if they came up at all) until P5 started catching heat? P4 fever was insane.

the extreme p4 nuthugging really was and i've spoken out about this multiple times in the past. hell back then just trying to discuss anything about persona that wasn't short of a praise was generally difficult from my experience. there's still quite a bit of that to this day but it does seem like more and more people are having constructive discussions regarding its content now, which is really nice to see.

i don't really have much else to add to what has already been said in the discussion but this thread has been a super pleasant read! cheers op

 

[Weiss]

I'm probably not going to buy this game just because of that. I love jrpgs but can't play a game that includes a regressive theme that sent gay people spiraling down a deep well of depression and into suicide. You would think a game of this caliber in this year would be better than that but unfortunately I have to remember racism and homophobia still are rampant in our society.

I would hate a teen or someone play the game and look at those gay portrayals as who we are.

As much as I love Persona 5, go for it.

Seriously, it's such a goddamn shame that a game I love this much had to fuck up so badly.

Even Lala Escargot being so awesome is mitigated by the fact that they're just a big joke, like Erica from Catherine.

 

[The Lamp]

As much as I love Persona 5, go for it.

Seriously, it's such a goddamn shame that a game I love this much had to fuck up so badly.

Even Lala Escargot being so awesome is mitigated by the fact that they're just a big joke, like Erica from Catherine.

Agreed. They went out of their way to make these negative portrayals. No LGBT representation is better than representation via intentionally designing annoying stereotype characters that implicate molesting high school students. Fucking Atlus.

 

[firehawk12]

I recently saw a video (in Spanish, sorry) in Youtube about it. The channel owners are a couple (he is from Spain, she is from Japan) and they talk about various stuff in Japan.

They explained the differences between discrimination towards the LGTB collective in Japan vs Spain and it was quite an interesting watch. Seemingly, the biggest issues are:

A) Japan doesn't like people that stand out and are "different". You are part of a group of people (at work, for example) and openly saying that you are different may lead to some problems.

B) Some people hate not feeling in control with the situation. So when you say something unexpected like "hey, I'm gay you know?" they lose their shit because they don't know what to say.

C) There are less cases of open violence toward LGTB collectives but more stuff happening "under the table".

If anybody wants to watch the video because they know Spanish, PM me and I'll look for it in my YT history. As I've said, those are not my words, just the video's. If anybody is willing to correct me, share their thoughts, or add information to my post, I'll happily read to what they have to say.

I think it's relative, because Japan has pride parades as well and there are out politicians and some celebrities who aren't trying to be the "hard gay" stereotype.

I recommend this book, which has a chapter on Japan:

One of the people he speaks to in Japan is Ayaka Ichinose, who got married, as it were, to raise awareness about LGBT rights.

Also this manga, while out of date, talks about the queer experience in 2006:

 

[Power Shot]

I'd like to say that the controversy surrounding this representation, as awful as P5 is in portraying LGBT issues, does point to something positive. The fact remains that not ten years ago this wouldn't have been a concern, and I'd like to take a moment to express pride that diversity and inclusion are becoming the standard (or, rather, that a majority want diversity and inclusion to be the standard) in video game representation.

 

[The Greek Freak]

I feel like they easily could have adjusted the scene(s) and made it much funnier.

Ryuji is a tool, I would enjoy seeing him panicking at being reasonably hit on by a gay character.

Two overly aggressive stereotypes running after him is just boring at best.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

I'm gay and this is not how I behave. This is not how gays behave. At all.

Ugh!
Who are you to say this?
There are lots n' lots of very feminine/gender-nonconforming gay/queer men out in the world that sashay and mince about.
They're real people who deserve to be represented in games/books/movies/etc. as much as conventionally masculine queer men deserve to be represented in games/books/movies/etc.

A better thing to ask of your fave JRPG devs is for them to avoid specifically turning effeminacy into a walking/talking punchline, and indulge in creating a more diverse array of queer male characters to identify with.

 

[A-V-B]

What confuses me is that in a game entirely about personal and societal freedom and rebellion, there are two seemingly pointless gay stereotypes. Like the game goes out of its way to toss them in. So what gives?

Is Japan just... culturally ignorant when it comes to that sort of thing? They still seem to have no problem with 100% on-the-nose blackface stereotypes, too.

 

[Zackat]

I couldn't believe it when the 2 dudes showed up and that whole sequence happened with Ryuji. Legit facepalmed.

 

[Opa-Pa]

What confuses me is that in a game entirely about personal and societal freedom and rebellion, there are two seemingly pointless gay stereotypes. Like the game goes out of its way to toss them in. So what gives?

Is Japan just... culturally ignorant when it comes to that sort of thing? They still seem to have no problem with 100% on-the-nose blackface stereotypes, too.

Judging by many of their games out there, it seems like it, but P Studio is a very special kind of tone deaf and immature when it comes to these things.

I'm really, really looking forward to a new game with different writers and/or directors.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

What confuses me is that in a game entirely about personal and societal freedom and rebellion, there are two seemingly pointless gay stereotypes. Like the game goes out of its way to toss them in. So what gives?

Is Japan just... culturally ignorant when it comes to that sort of thing? They still seem to have no problem with 100% on-the-nose blackface stereotypes, too.

Because while the game has the whole theme of challenging society's assumptions and norms, it does so from the most typical perspective possible. It's a 'safe' version of Rebellion, against things that Japanese society at some level acknowledges and has long discussed. Expectations of what you should do with your life has been the backbone of countless dramas. Ace Attorney satirised the criminal justice system a decade and a half beforehand. The objectification of women has been played every way from sexy to serious to silly. These are issues that are okay to recognise as issues. They're safe ways of challenging the status quo.

 

[Power Shot]

Ugh!
Who are you to say this?
There are lots n' lots of very feminine/gender-nonconforming queer men out in the world that sashay and mince about.
They're real people who deserve to be represented in games/books/movies/etc. as much as conventionally masculine queer men deserve to be represented in games/books/movies/etc.

A better thing to ask of your fave JRPG devs is for them to avoid turning effeminacy into a walking/talking punchline, and indulge in creating a more diverse array of queer male characters to identify with.

I don't think that's what is meant by this sentiment. Gay men don't act like this stereotype. Criminals act like this stereotype, because criminals prey on children. Certainly there are degrees of effeminate and masculine attitudes in gay culture, just as there are in straight culture, but criminals are the ones who straight up assault children and P5 plays this stereotype for a joke that falls flat.

 

[firehawk12]

Judging by many of their games out there, it seems like it, but P Studio is a very special kind of tone deaf and immature when it comes to these things.

I'm really, really looking forward to a new game with different writers and/or directors.

It's just anime stereotypes and not Japanese stereotypes. It would be like judging America because every game features a white guy who shoots thousands of people and saying all Americans are obsessed with racial violence.

 

[Opa-Pa]

It's just anime stereotypes and not Japanese stereotypes. It would be like judging America because every game features a white guy who shoots thousands of people and saying all Americans are obsessed with racial violence.

Wouldn't the fact that these stupid tropes are prevalent in japanese media that isn't anime suggest that it's something more than just that though?

And claiming a society has certain problems doesn't necessarily mean every person that's part of it does. For example, I don't think it's outrageous to claim that America has a racial problem, and that still doesn't mean every american out there is racist.

 

[dragonlife]

Ugh!
Who are you to say this?
There are lots n' lots of very feminine/gender-nonconforming gay/queer men out in the world that sashay and mince about.
They're real people who deserve to be represented in games/books/movies/etc. as much as conventionally masculine queer men deserve to be represented in games/books/movies/etc.

A better thing to ask of your fave JRPG devs is for them to avoid specifically turning effeminacy into a walking/talking punchline, and indulge in creating a more diverse array of queer male characters to identify with.

Goddamn right.

I don't think that's what is meant by this sentiment. Gay men don't act like this stereotype. Criminals act like this stereotype, because criminals prey on children. Certainly there are degrees of effeminate and masculine attitudes in gay culture, just as there are in straight culture, but criminals are the ones who straight up assault children and P5 plays this stereotype for a joke that falls flat.

Considering he posted a pic of an effeminate gay man who does drag, you're mistaken about his intent. Thankfully, his blanket statement was addressed by MisterGrey.

His post just reeks of a typical "no fem" attitude. Gays comes in all shapes, sizes, voices, and mannerisms. Hell, he even says he didn't like the effeminate characters in Breath of the Wild, and they're straight (his words).

A gay afraid/disgusted by femininity. Yawn. Never seen that before.

 

[firehawk12]

Wouldn't the fact that these stupid tropes are prevalent in japanese media that isn't anime suggest that it's something more than just that though?

And claiming a society has certain problems doesn't necessarily mean every person that's part of it does. For example, I don't think it's outrageous to claim that America has a racial problem, and that still doesn't mean every american out there is racist.

Not really. Like, there was this show that came out last year that was billed as the first lesbian drama on Japanese TV which resembles nothing like the anime tropes you see in Japanese games.
(The article says the show is cliched, but I mean, the person they ask thinks Modern Family is a good example of queer relationships in the media and pretty much everyone here thinks that show is a joke lol)

I speak from a place of self-hatred/love or whatever when I say anime is pretty shit, particularly when it comes to these types of issues (let's just ignore how straight female nerds fetishize gay men for example), but it's not really reflective of Japan as a whole. You either have to look at more mainstream media or on the fringes of the anime/nerd scene that is far, far away from mainstream nerd stuff like Persona.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

Goddamn right.

Considering he posted a pic of an effeminate gay man who does drag, you're mistaken about his intent. Thankfully, his blanket statement was addressed by MisterGrey.

His post just reeks of a typical "no fem" attitude. Gays comes in all shapes, sizes, voices, and mannerisms. Hell, he even says he didn't like the effeminate characters in Breath of the Wild, and they're straight (his words).

A gay afraid/disgusted by femininity. Yawn. Never seen that before.

Right on the money, my friend.
I haven't seen the original, french version of The Bird Cage but the poster I replied to basically picked a character to represent their exclusionary point that (afaik) doesn't fit any of the negative traits that Power Shot describes in his post.
The character is just a gay man who's feminine and a drag queen (i.e. gender-nonconforming), that's it.

Lutherian's post feels like it comes straight out of that icky, effemiphobic grindr culture.
"No fems bro, don't like dat that faggy shit".

 

[Raxus]

I couldn't believe it when the 2 dudes showed up and that whole sequence happened with Ryuji. Legit facepalmed.

I couldn't click through the dialogue fast enough. It is made worse by how terrible the whole hawaii trip is.

If they make a P5 Golden I really hope they delete those characters and finally make Yusuke a romance option. It is a shame they never really confirm him as any sexuality since he is one of my favorites in the game. He bends gender rules and is totally comfortable doing so. Whether he be gay/bi/asexual it would be a huge step in the right direction.

 

[Power Shot]

Goddamn right.

Considering he posted a pic of an effeminate gay man who does drag, you're mistaken about his intent. Thankfully, his blanket statement was addressed by MisterGrey.

This would be my fault. I misunderstood the context of the original post because I couldn't see the image (have no idea why, but moving on). I apologize for the confusion and any offense I created.

 

[Taruranto]

I couldn't click through the dialogue fast enough. It is made worse by how terrible the whole hawaii trip is.

If they make a P5 Golden I really hope they delete those characters and finally make Yusuke a romance option. It is a shame they never really confirm him as any sexuality since he is one of my favorites in the game. He bends gender rules and is totally comfortable doing so. Whether he be gay/bi/asexual it would be a huge step in the right direction.

Yusuke comes of as pretty straight to me. He's just socially clueless and a bit weird, but there are scenes in which he shows attraction to Ann and Makoto (And Futaba?). It kinda feels like a joke, "ahah, this dude is super weird but he's actually pervert, he just doesn't look/act like one".

I doubt Persona will ever have gay romances at this point, P5 doubled on the waifu pandering and there are very few male S.Links not counting party members. I think Hashino simply doesn't want/dislike these elements at this point.

I speak from a place of self-hatred/love or whatever when I say anime is pretty shit, particularly when it comes to these types of issues (let's just ignore how straight female nerds fetishize gay men for example), but it's not really reflective of Japan as a whole. You either have to look at more mainstream media or on the fringes of the anime/nerd scene that is far, far away from mainstream nerd stuff like Persona.

Honestly anime itself feels miles ahead videogames when it comes to these stuff, even if most stuff is made for fujoshi. Especially if you also include manga.

 

[Setsu00]

As much as I love Persona 5, go for it.

Seriously, it's such a goddamn shame that a game I love this much had to fuck up so badly.

Even Lala Escargot being so awesome is mitigated by the fact that they're just a big joke, like Erica from Catherine.

How is Lala a joke? People that dress and act like her a rather common in Shinjuku's gay bars.

 

[Weiss]

How is Lala a joke? People that dress and act like her a rather common in Shinjuku's gay bars.

Because the joke is that Lala is friendly and responsible and helps you, but uh oh she's actually a big sex weirdo.

It's Leeron in Gurren Lagann, Jann in Valkyria Chronicles, and Erica in Catherine. The joke is that they're LGBT because it's an inherent source of comedy.

 

[Setsu00]

Because the joke is that Lala is friendly and responsible and helps you, but uh oh she's actually a big sex weirdo.

It's Leeron in Gurren Lagann, Jann in Valkyria Chronicles, and Erica in Catherine. The joke is that they're LGBT because it's an inherent source of comedy.

And the "big sex weirdo" part comes from the fact that she's a drag queen? I haven't finished Ichiko's S.Link, so maybe she says something like that in that one, but other than that I really didn't get the impression that Lala was meant to be a joke.

 

[Weiss]

And the "big sex weirdo" part comes from the fact that she's a drag queen? I haven't finished Ichiko's S.Link, so maybe she says something like that in that one, but other than that I really didn't get the impression that Lala was meant to be a joke.

You're misunderstanding me. You and I like Lala because she's a competent, respectful, smart LGBT character. My point is that she's not supposed to be positive representation; she's intended by the game devs to be a joke specifically because she's LGBT, and that joke is "look at this BIG FAT GUY DRESSED AS A GIRL EWWW ISN'T THAT FUNNY."

You think the guys who put comic relief gay sex predators in this game know the first thing about positive representation? The same guys who pulled "You used to be Eric!" and "She was a HE?!"

 

[Juliano2016]

Was discussing this in another forum and a user said that people were crying for nothing and that because Lala exists it "balances" the fact that the other gays are portraits as flamboyant paedophiles.

That's why we need to keep talking and shouting.

 

[Setsu00]

Was discussing this in another forum and a user said that people were crying for nothing and that because Lala exists it "balances" the fact that the other gays are portraits as flamboyant paedophiles.

That's why we need to keep talking and shouting.

Unless you start shouting in Japanese, it doesn't matter anyway as Atlus doesn't care about its Western audience.

 

[Juliano2016]

Unless you start shouting in Japanese, it doesn't matter anyway as Atlus doesn't care about its Western audience.

Just because they don't care it doesn't mean we shouldn't raise the issue. No one cared about LGBTQ rights until enough people did and showed it by talking and demanding rights.

 

[Setsu00]

Just because they don't care it doesn't mean we shouldn't raise the issue. No one cared about LGBTQ rights until enough people did and showed it by talking and demanding rights.

Well yes, but nothing will come out of it unless you start talking in a language that will be understood by the people you're trying to reach.

If you want to change something about the situation, make sure that your voice will be heard by Atlus. Reach out to them via the JP twitter account, write emails, etc.

 

[benicillin]

It's really unfortunate that the game is fantastic and from a thematic point of view has a lot of great messages that are unfortunately undercut by some weird, cheap attempts at humor, usually involving fan service or gay jokes.

 

[MKIL65]

A good example of how a Gay character should be written, would probably be Arcade Gannon from Fallout New Vegas. He's witty, can be a bit sarcastic and has a well rounded personality.

Of course, with Atlus incompetent writing skills, they would never be able to replicate this. This is their assumption of how a Gay character should be:

1. Feminine

2. Dresses ''weirdly''

3. Act like stalkers.

When in reality, homosexuals can be very diverse. In personality, fashion sense and speech. Why is this so hard to accept?