Ledsen said:Compare the quest design in Morrowind and Oblivion.
Level-scaling: It is coming back
I don't want to seem like a Debbie Downer but it was probably always certain that to get the full open-world, dangerous exploration-based hardcore RPG, we would have to wait for modders to create that game.EviLore said:I didn't expect otherwise, but this is still disappointing for reasons I've elaborated on recently.
Basically, when a game is designed around a fast travel system like Oblivion/FO3, the quests will regularly send you huge distances away because the designers know that you'll just fast travel to the closest spot you have unlocked. Turning fast travel off via a mod, or not using fast travel out of principle, is just setting yourself up for frustration since you'll be doing hour long fetch quests.
In a game like Morrowind, you have fast travel between major hubs, not between every little point of interest. So quests are designed organically, with a quest in a city generally having to do with that city, and a quest sending you a long distance is done with purpose behind it. Exploration becomes more meaningful since you're less likely to find things further away from the hub locations. There's no big arrow telling you where to go, you need to work things out based on landmarks and quest text.
In a game like Risen, exploration is the focus and there's no scaling or Oblivion style fast travel. Enemies become more exotic and dangerous the further you go from the safety of the big city. You unlock teleportation to a few specific spots in the game world many hours into the game when you've already explored most of it. There's no scaling or big arrow on a minimap to tell you where to go, you have to work things out based on landmarks and actually knowing the game world over time.
:/
Metalmurphy said:Can't wait to get my ass kicked by rats
Sickboy007 said:from oblivion with guns to fallout with swords. cant wait to play skyrim with xxx.
EviLore said:In a game like Risen, exploration is the focus and there's no scaling or Oblivion style fast travel. Enemies become more exotic and dangerous the further you go from the safety of the big city. You unlock teleportation to a few specific spots in the game world many hours into the game when you've already explored most of it. There's no scaling or big arrow on a minimap to tell you where to go, you have to work things out based on landmarks and actually knowing the game world over time.
Simon Belmont said:On the flipside, I don't really have hours to spare walking back and forth between the same places. It may break the game for a person like you, but it makes the game for a person like me.
Ferrio said:
EviLore said:That's not it at all.
The screenshots look promising but they only showcase environments and creatures, they don't show any people or faces up close which is concerning.
or the game that came before risen, gothic3. if you love the exploration in morrowind that game should be your heaven. definitely one of my favourite rpgs ever.Bootaaay said::O I've pretty much ignored Risen (probably would've got it by now if there was a PS3 port), but from your description it sounds like it exemplifies what I loved most about Morrowind; the sense of exploration without any of the hand-holding bullshit of Oblivion. I'll definitely have to investigate it further (and pray it runs well on my laptop).
cluto said:With fixed levels, players might get raped in the first dungeon they go in to because they're under-leveled.
Basically the game will funnel players into certain directions based on their level, which makes it less of an open world game. With level-scaling, players can go practically anywhere and experience fair combat at any level.
DennisK4 said:I never dared dream Betsheda would learn a lesson from Risen anyway
Indeed. I was going look up Evilore's previous elaboration of this point in response to you, but he's beaten me to the punch.Simon Belmont said:It's a good thing they've got you thinking about it!
Mt Heart Attack said:I kinda wish this game looked more... fantasy. If it wasn't for spells and skeletons it could very well be a Middle Age-set game. Needs more skyscrapers built from giant mushrooms:/
But hey, who am I kidding, I'm still hyped as hell
UrbanRats said:Will they be able to make decent animations?
Oblivion had.. like, the worst horses ever made :lol
cluto said:In regard to the engine, the article uses the terms "redesigned engine" and "new rendering engine". It's possible that it's still Gamebryo with a new graphics engine.
Visually, the graphics have improved significantly: shadows being cast on indoor objects; characters look way better, especially females; snow dynamically falls onto trees and objects, etc.
I am going to assume that approach is too daring for Betsheda. I remember quite a few complaints from gamers that they got slaughtered by Radscorpions in New Vegas no matter what they did. Apparently it was not clear that this meant you had to go elsewhere and return when you have gained levels.EviLore said:How about Fallout: New Vegas, then? Richly designed open game world free of scaling and full of danger. Obsidian designed it so that early on players will be subtly nudged towards a direction of slowly incrementing challenge and character strength, yet the world is totally open to explore and throw caution to the wind if you so choose, with all of the consequences associated with that (risk of death and reward for success). You always have a good sense of when you might be in over your head, but your hand is never held.
Billen said:Level scaling? That is a stupid fucking decision.
Funny, fixed levels work fine for WoW, and that's the most successful RPG ever. Right?cluto said:On level-scaling, what do you guys think is a better leveling system for an open world game? With fixed levels, players might get raped in the first dungeon they go in to because they're under-leveled. Basically the game will funnel players into certain directions based on their level, which makes it less of an open world game. With level-scaling, players can go practically anywhere and experience fair combat at any level.
Do you guys prefer the non-scaling system or do you think there is a better way to handle a leveling system for an open world game?
EviLore said:How about Fallout: New Vegas, then? Richly designed open game world free of scaling and full of danger. Obsidian designed it so that early on players will be subtly nudged towards a direction of slowly incrementing challenge and character strength, yet the world is totally open to explore and throw caution to the wind if you so choose, with all of the consequences associated with that (risk of death and reward for success). You always have a good sense of when you might be in over your head, but your hand is never held.
If I may be so bold, I will recommend some open-world exploration based RPGsBootaaay said:I've pretty much ignored Risen (probably would've got it by now if there was a PS3 port), but from your description it sounds like it exemplifies what I loved most about Morrowind; the sense of exploration without any of the hand-holding bullshit of Oblivion. I'll definitely have to investigate it further (and pray it runs well on my laptop).
EviLore said:How about Fallout: New Vegas, then? Richly designed open game world free of scaling and full of danger.
LiK said:super saiyan rats.
Yeah who cares if there is level scaling, it will be modded right away anyway.Death Dealer said:I Call me pessimistic, I still think the mod community will have to fix it up.
Grimm Fandango said:So was there a reason why level scaling wasn't in Fallout 3?
EviLore said:Level scaling is present in Fallout 3. When you visit a location for the first time, it scales to the player (within a preset range for that location, so something could still feel easy or hard). If you decide it's too hard or get distracted by some other quest and come back later, it's still locked to what it was when you went there the first time.
It's a lot less actively offensive than Oblivion's scaling, at least.
:lol :loldisappeared said:Annoying Fan 2.0 ($1)
Mt Heart Attack said:Yeah who cares if there is level scaling, it will be modded right away anyway.
nexen said:New Vegas didn't have scaling? I thought they just toned it down.
recklessmind said:Won't it be much harder to mod if the scaling permeates even into the quest design?
MORROWIND HAD 1 SONG AND IT WAS LOOPED ALL THE TIME. (At least it felt that way)ajim said:I hope the music is as good as it was in Morrowind, that was a huge let down for me in Oblivion, nothing truly memorable
EviLore said:Level scaling is present in Fallout 3. When you visit a location for the first time, it scales to the player (within a preset range for that location, so something could still feel easy or hard). If you decide it's too hard or get distracted by some other quest and come back later, it's still locked to what it was when you went there the first time.
It's a lot less actively offensive than Oblivion's scaling, at least.