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[syko de4d]

Do you get XP (y/n)? If y go to RPG, if n go elsewhere.

XP are the only thing that defines a RPG?

Game has a large open world with weather and day and night cycle
Game has a inventory system thats even pretty hardcore for full RPGs in todays times.
You do side and main quests
You dont progress with XP in this game but you get better with your gear. XP are not the only way to get progression.
You have many dialogues with many different NPCs. Team up with them, kill them, listen to their storys etc.
Different endings

For me choice, dialogues and quests define RPGs way more than just xp. Thats why i wouldnt put something like Diablo2 on my RPG list, even if the game is great.

 

[RangerX]

The number one is absolutely spot on. Apart from maybe Dark souls torment has the most fully realised and immersive game world I have ever played.

 

[Danne-Danger]

These statements always bug me.

Bioshock doesn't have the choice mechanics, one of the defining aspects of an RPG, and the character building is actually much worse.

That definition isn't going to work, though. You choose to engage big daddys, you choose to free/kill little sisters, you choose how to build your character and these choices affect your progression and the story. The lack of actual dialogue choices doesn't mean that there aren't any choices at all. And in ME2, you could argue that most of the choices are faux since they have the same outcome with just a different line of dialogue.

XP are the only thing that defines a RPG?

Game has a large open world with weather and day and night cycle
Game has a inventory system thats even pretty hardcore for full RPGs in todays times.
You do side and main quests
You dont progress with XP in this game but you get better with your gear. XP are not the only way to get progression.
You have many dialogues with many different NPCs. Team up with them, kill them, listen to their storys etc.
Different endings

For me choice, dialogues and quests define RPGs way more than just xp. Thats why i wouldnt put something like Diablo2 on my RPG list, even if the game is great.

No, not to me, but that's how it's defined in general. Sprinkle some XP over the player and you can put "RPG elements" on the box. The trouble is that a RPG gets pretty difficult to define if you have to break it down into stuff like the size of the world and the amount of freedom the player has.

Is Dark Messiah of Might and Magic an RPG? You build your character through a skill tree, you're free to explore the levels you run through, you find loot, change equipment, make choices throughout, but there's no XP. Is it a RPG? I'm not sure, it'd be a damn good one if it was.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Planescape Torment is good. Baldur´s Gate 2 is perfect. This list is wrong.

Thats what I was going to say.
I couldnt bring myself to finish Planescape more than once. The world was so brown and ugly with hardly any combat/action. BG2? I played through that almost 20 times.

 

[Seyavesh]

i looked at all the pages of this thread to see how many times mask of the betrayer got mentioned and it's brought up in like less than 10 posts

please play mask of the betrayer it's really good I swear

 

[MehsterChief]

Just a couple of thoughts about some of the entries:

Skyrim:
Skyrim is not a good game, it just isn't. And it doesn't matter from where you look at it. The story is boring fantasy gibberish about speaking dragons from the past and shit and a lot of flat characters. Nonsense...
Combat's bad, too. If you're going for a real-time combat system you have to be compared with Dark Souls. Yeah...
But what about the world? Yes, it's gigantic with hundreds of playces to visit. But it's never filled with interesting content. It's standard fantasy without any surprises and the quests are, with few exceptions, unimaginative. There's a reason the radiant quests didn't feel any different from the designed ones...

Mass Effect 2:
Mass Effect is the moment Bioware said goodbye to any deep systems in their games. It works ok as a third-person-shooter but that downfall should not be applauded.

Vampire: Bloodlines
I've just finished this game for the first time. While at times it feels very "early-2000's" in its artstyle, music and so on, the first 70% of the game are awesome. It's absolute coherent in its worldbuilding and shows a side of society that is filled with hookers, drug addicts and sociopaths. Really interesing. Then it all turns to shit. The last third is so bad that it should be lower on the list.

 

[dlauv]

That definition isn't going to work, though. You choose to engage big daddys, you choose to free/kill little sisters, you choose how to build your character and these choices affect your progression and the story. The lack of actual dialogue choices doesn't mean that there aren't any choices at all. And in ME2, you could argue that most of the choices are faux since they have the same outcome with just a different line of dialogue.

That's not the same kind of choice. You can do those choices in most games actually. Do I choose to stomp on these goombas?

I'm talking about the agency over the personality and combat dynamics of your character. The obvious wrpg "choice mechanics." Bioshock doesn't have them to nearly the same effect, which I stated before. Bioshock is clearly an action game with lite RPG mechanics whereas ME offers a much more robust set of RPG elements. Now you can argue the ethical and philosophical magnitude of the choices presented in both games, but that doesn't change the fact that Bioshock has less mechanically and quantifiably.

 

[Lanrutcon]

Absolutely terrible list.

 

[Galileo]

Not a bad list overall considering that's from a mainstream magazine, it's especially good to see they picked kotor 2 and F: NV over their more famous predecessors.
Still missing a few important games though, like Arcanum, Alpha Protocol, Mask of the Betrayer...

 

[XaeonBE]

For me Mass Effect 2 at one!

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I'm glad to see that they acknowledge the truth of Mass Effect 2 being far superior to the original game.

 

[MattKeil]

So now Mass Effect 2 is not an RPG? Amazing. I very specifically remember playing the role of Shepard in a heavily story-based game, but maybe I imagined it. The ME3 ending backlash really did cause a Spider-Man 3 effect, I guess.

ME2 should be higher, but they got #1 right.

 

[CloudWolf]

Combat's bad, too. If you're going for a real-time combat system you have to be compared with Dark Souls. Yeah...

I never understood this sentiment. Why compare Skyrim with Dark Souls? Both are very different games that try to do very different things. Even from a pure combat standpoint it doesn't work since Skyrim is a first person game and Dark Souls is third person. Sure, you can play Elder Scrolls games in third person view, but the games are clearly designed for first person play.

 

[SkeptiMism]

Planescape Torment is good. Baldur´s Gate 2 is perfect. This list is wrong.

Uhm no. Baldur's Gate is really, really good. Planetscape: Torment is really, really good too.

Thats what I was going to say.
I couldnt bring myself to finish Planescape more than once. The world was so brown and ugly with hardly any combat/action. BG2? I played through that almost 20 times.

Does the lack of focus in combat make an RPG bad? No, it really doesn't. While Torment has its weaknesses, it makes up for them with its god tier strength, its writing, which is unmatched in any game ever made.

Absolutely terrible list.

Now that's productive!

Mind telling more maybe? Do you disagree with a couple of choices or the whole list?

 

[keezy]

Is Fallout 3 not on the list or am I blind?...seems an odd one to exclude if it's not there.

Glad I'm not the only one.

 

[syko de4d]

Is Fallout 3 not on the list or am I blind?...seems an odd one to exclude if it's not there.

Looks like they only want one game per franchise in the list. Beside Fallout 2 and Fallout NV you dont see any other two games from the same franchise in the list. And maybe Fallout is the only exception because the 2D and 3D series are to different.
Thats maybe why the list is missing games like BG1, Gothic1, Kotor 1, Witcher1, Diablo 2, Fallout1 or Mass Effect 1 for example.

 

[MoGamesXNA]

.

 

[erragal]

Most of this has been said but consensus helps: Morrowind should be on the list in place of Skyrim. I actually think Skyrim could also be on the list. ME2, South Park, Torchlight shouldnt be on this list at all.

Might and Magic VI is a very viable replacement in the top half. I preferred 7 myself but that's more of a taste than objective qualifier.

With original DX , Mount and Blade, and D3 being on there the criteria is very broad. In that world I think Eye of the Beholder needs to be on this list, probably right at 25.

Titan Quest as well is still the superior game to either of the popular Diablo games.

It's not a terrible list overall and it catches almost all of the legendary classics outside of EotB.

Oh and Menzoberranzan/ Stone Prophet. I actually preferred Stone Prophet but menzo is a more epic experience. Not sure very many ppl got to play the gold box d&d based classics though :/

 

[Zeliard]

That list was clearly made by a casual gamer and an Obsidian fanboy. I refuse to believe that a fellow 'PC Gamer' made this list Master race indeed

How does that work, exactly? Casual gamer plus Obsidian fanboy? I'm not sure that Obsidian generally caters to the casual crowd.

Guys, this isn't that difficult. List threads are often terrible, and they're terrible because some people feel the urge to just cry "X ISN'T Y LOL LIST IS TERRIBLE" and leave it at that. That doesn't add to the discussion. In fact, it generally just poisons it.

Offer some sort of argument to support your disagreement. If, in this case, you feel that KOTOR 2 shouldn't be ranked instead of KOTOR 1 or that Skyrim is on the list at all or that Mass Effect 2 is on the list at all or whatever your particular issue with the list is, make an argument in support of that viewpoint.

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with a certain ranking, but either create an alternative listing for yourself and back each of the entries up with why you feel they deserve the spot, or let people know exactly why it is you disagree with a certain entry.

 

[Vamphuntr]

Mass Effect 2, Diablo 3, South Park the Stick of Truth, Torchlight 2 and Skyrim shouldn't be there imo.

I loved South Park because I'm a fan of the show but I didn't feel it was a good RPG. Battles weren't satisfying,balance and difficulty was fairly broken, the mechanics were really simple and the game was really short for an RPG.

Mass Effect 2 is a populist choice I guess. I can understand the reasoning if its because the production value behind the game. Otherwise it was a third party shooter where you dumped points in skills for the sake of dumping points in skills.

I think Diablo 3 was discussed to death here already but the way you can't customize your stats at level up and the skills to choose at level up kind of lower my enjoyment of it a lot. I'm not even entering the whole auction house and balancing debacle.

I suppose Torchlight II is there because Diablo 3 was on the list and frankly Morrowind felt like a better RPG than Skyrim.

If you want to add Obsidian games on a list, I would place Alpha Protocol and NWN 2 before South Park even if they have problems.

 

[MoGamesXNA]

.

 

[Zarovitch]

Wizardry 7 should be somewhere in that list.

 

[Riposte]

Mass Effect 2 is a populist choice I guess. I can understand the reasoning if its because the production value behind the game. Otherwise it was a third party shooter where you dumped points in skills for the sake of dumping points in skills.

As opposed to a 3D action game or SRPG where you dump points for the sake of dumping points, etc.?

 

[Eusis]

XP are the only thing that defines a RPG?

Game has a large open world with weather and day and night cycle
Game has a inventory system thats even pretty hardcore for full RPGs in todays times.
You do side and main quests
You dont progress with XP in this game but you get better with your gear. XP are not the only way to get progression.
You have many dialogues with many different NPCs. Team up with them, kill them, listen to their storys etc.
Different endings

For me choice, dialogues and quests define RPGs way more than just xp. Thats why i wouldnt put something like Diablo2 on my RPG list, even if the game is great.

I think it's more that EXP is a good basic litmus test, but it's not enough in and of itself, and a key part, like it or not, is how it's actually PITCHED. If the developers don't really view it as an RPG then it probably shouldn't be treated as one, plus it honestly is good to have more genres have those aspects in general, or more genres than just "it's a shooter that ISN'T hyper linear or a mindless bloodbath? RPG!"

I'm glad to see that they acknowledge the truth of Mass Effect 2 being far superior to the original game.

I think Jeremy Parish had the right of it saying that was something of a case of "throwing out the baby with the bath water", the real ideal to me is some middle ground between ME1 and 2. ME3 sorta tried to do that in some ways but didn't really go where I wanted them to go there (then the ending happened.)

 

[pixellated_man]

I would love all those who dismiss this list as a 'joke' or 'garbage' to come up with their own top rpg list of all time. If they were being honest and only included games that they truly like to play now, not including games there because of their impact on the genre etc., basically using the same criteria that PC gamer used for their list, I am sure your list would be dismissed by others equally. Some of you really need to realize that best of lists will NEVER match up completely to your tastes and games like music and film are subject to personal interpretation and ideas of what constitutes as 'fun'. Sure discuss and criticise constructively but getting all riled up over best of lists is just silly.

 

[Zabi]

I am pleased to see a Mount & Blade game on the list.

 

[Stimpack]

I'm glad to see that they acknowledge the truth of Mass Effect 2 being far superior to the original game.

Mein herz bricht.