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The Big Graphics Problems Bungie Wants To Solve

Dennis

Banned
Gamasutra has a very interesting interview Bungie's Senior Graphics Engineer, Hao Chen.


“Number one is removing digital artifacts… removing all the jaggies, having very clean foliage edges, and awesome looking hair with no artifacts. Removing these digital artifacts that remind people you are staring at a computer screen is one of our top priorities.”


"A disadvantage of megatextures is that on a console, we typically already know exactly what the hardware is doing, and we have very very tight control of where the resources go. So we could do a lot of things [that are similar to the benefits provided by] megatextures already on consoles, that you can't do on PC."


They talk about lots of interesting stuff like:

Megatextures
Aliasing
Shadow dithering
Texture pop-in
How to find graphics people


Teaser: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/39332/The_Big_Graphics_Problems_Bungie_Wants_To_Solve.php

Interview proper: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6579/all_that_glitters_an_interview_.php
 

Log4Girlz

Member
"I've certainly seen how even today people are having a lot of trouble rendering shadows without a lot of blockiness or dithering.

HC: That's kind of the problem with computer game graphics these days. A lot of things people consider solved problems are actually quite far from being solved, and shadows are one of them. After all these years we don't have a very satisfactory shadow solution. They're improving; every generation of games they're improving, but they're nowhere near the perfect solution that people thought we already have."

Goddamit
 

Anteater

Member
“Number one is removing digital artifacts… removing all the jaggies, having very clean foliage edges, and awesome looking hair with no artifacts. Removing these digital artifacts that remind people you are staring at a computer screen is one of our top priorities.”

Yea I hated those so much in video games, I remember back then I'd rather them not having foliage in my games because they were just so god damn ugly and bring down the performance. Patches of ugly grass with pixelated edges :(

Though what I hate most is sub HD with terrible or no fsaa, jaggies on everything
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
A high resolution, good anti-aliasing with transparency sampling to clean up foliage and what have you, and anisotropic filtering do wonders for games, in terms of raw rendering moreso than anything else in my opinion. So I'm all for pushing those things harder on the next generation of console and rendering technology.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Their bit on how they wanted to use voxelization was quite interesting as well. I'm curious to see if anything ever comes of it.

Megatextures
Also, the response to this was amazing. To expand upon what you already highlighted:

Gamasutra said:
Let's talk about the pros and cons of megatextures. Do you use them?

Hao Chen: We don't use them right now. There are two main interpretations of "megatexture." One is to store a giant texture, say 16k by 16k, and use a combination of hardware, OS, and client side streaming to allow you to map that big texture to your world.

This is cool, but we already have similar technology in places where that would be needed. For example, this is great for terrain, but we already have a very good terrain solution that uses a great LOD and paging scheme to allow us to do large and high fidelity terrain.

The other interpretation of megatexture, or the so-called sparse texture, is great for things that only have valid data in small parts of a texture. For example, if you paint a mask on terrain, then you will only have valid data where the paintbrushes touched, and everywhere else it is useless data.

Sparse textures allow us to represent these textures very efficiently without wasting precious storage and bandwidth on useless data. Another cool application of sparse texture that we are excited about is shadows. If we can render to sparse textures, then it's possible that we can render very high resolution shadows to places that need them and still be efficient.

A disadvantage of megatextures is that on a console, we typically already know exactly what the hardware is doing, and we have very very tight control of where the resources go. So we could do a lot of things [that are similar to the benefits provided by] megatextures already on consoles, that you can't do on PC. So I guess there wouldn't really be a disadvantage, it's just that the coolness of having a texture that is automatically managed is less relevant in the console than it is on the PC.
They basically do a great job going "Yeah... this is actually kind of useless for us... or almost anyone really." :lol
 

Truth101

Banned
Hair in games suck. I'm always disappointed by it.

The megatextures comment is basically, "It sounds nice in theory, but in actuality we already achieve the same results without them"
 

OatmealMu

Member
IQ definitely has a long ways to go. I played through Mass Effect 2 recently and noticed the extremely low resolution bloom. When intense light caught the edge of a character just right the resulting glow was downright ugly.
 

Truth101

Banned
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about these two?

1.) In terms of look: http://images.eurogamer.net/2011/articles//a/1/4/1/8/3/2/8/DOTS_001.bmp.jpg

2.) In terms of animation: http://i.imgur.com/YmA5r.gif

Ah, i should have been more clear.

Usually it is longer hair that developers seem to struggle with, short hair never seems as difficult for them to get right.

Is that from Alice Madness Returns?

I think in that gif it looks alright as the effects make it seems more like fog.smoke particles rather than hair, but (if it is Alice) something just seems off.

I don't know I guess I'm picky about hair in-games as well as real life, haha.

I'm not weird =C
 
Of all these issues, Halo not being a 60fps game is what hurt it the most. It's not a coincidence that CoD, the most successful fps on the market, is a 60fps game. That is much more important and has a direct gameplay advantage compared to any of those other issues.
 

subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
They basically do a great job going "Yeah... this is actually kind of useless for us... or almost anyone really." :lol

I don't think that it's useless, that just means that they wouldn't port the game on PC or the game will run like shit. Bad for MMOs though.
 

Sethos

Banned
Of all these issues, Halo not being a 60fps game is what hurt it the most. It's not a coincidence that CoD, the most successful fps on the market, is a 60fps game. That is much more important and has a direct gameplay advantage compared to any of those other issues.

Indeed, it's the smoothness that makes Call of Duty. Without it, I wouldn't have made it past Call of Duty 4.
 

Anteater

Member
i know this is weird but i also think rocks in games look bad

:x

(rock of ages is cool tho :p)

What do you think about the rocks in Crysis? I remember thinking rocks in that looks so awesome, and the ones in the lost coast demo in HL2 was good looking too (for its time)
 

Dead Man

Member
Until they find better ways to deform shapes and prevent clipping so you can have realistic anatomy movement and clothing movement they are rearranging deck chairs. Better edges and all are nice, but they are pretty small problems to me.
 

Tiduz

Eurogaime
What do you think about the rocks in Crysis? I remember thinking rocks in that looks so awesome, and the ones in the lost coast demo in HL2 was good looking too (for its time)

sure but in 95% of games rocks look like smeared out grey clayturds
 

Anteater

Member
While we're on the topic of what looks horrible in games

I've been wondering, why do we still got ugly grass in video games? You know the really flat floor with green grass textures, is there no way around it? I remember seeing mods for skyrim and you could increase the density of the grass patches and bushes, with modern computers, I'm sure it is possible to fill up an entire area with them, but why don't they fill it all up?

Flower on the psn isn't perfect, but when could we start seeing animated grass and cool looking grass field like that? The flowers field looked great in mgs3 too I think but it's been a while since I played it
 

Phandy

Member
I'd always take a good clean looking game, that is matched with great art direction over anything that has tonnes of graphic 'fidelity' or whatever.

I would quite happily have graphics technology stop in its tracks and have IQ catch up. So were talking 1080p, 60 fps, lots of AA/AF, super sampling for hair and transparencies etc. And then let art direction become of importance too. You might also start being able to do more in other ways, less loading, more stuff on screen, bigger worlds, more AI and CPU stuff happening.

Its the reason tf2 look so good to me. Amazing art direction, and simpler graphics so I can run a shit tonne of AA and a nice resolution, all at 60fps.
 

zoukka

Member
Until they find better ways to deform shapes and prevent clipping so you can have realistic anatomy movement and clothing movement they are rearranging deck chairs. Better edges and all are nice, but they are pretty small problems to me.

Clipping is something that is solved, but the methods require a lot power and a lot of manhours. That's why it's so often not perfect.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
I don't think that it's useless, that just means that they wouldn't port the game on PC or the game will run like shit. Bad for MMOs though.

Well, I mean, for most developers who are attempting something like this, they're primarily targeting consoles, and on the PC end their customer base has a lot of overhead in terms of memory.

There's also the issue with trying to distribute 100+ gigabytes into a digital download heavy market to actually maintain the quality necessary for id's implementation to work without poor texture resolution, so even if on paper the solution makes sense for the platform, there are other factors that cause it to be highly problematic there as well.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
ucharted is one of the few games that gets a pass.

but that alice animation, while it looks good, and alot better than most. It does not look very realistic. Basically it looks like shes under water rather than on land.,.

Ah, i should have been more clear.

Usually it is longer hair that developers seem to struggle with, short hair never seems as difficult for them to get right.

Is that from Alice Madness Returns?

I think in that gif it looks alright as the effects make it seems more like fog.smoke particles rather than hair, but (if it is Alice) something just seems off.

I don't know I guess I'm picky about hair in-games as well as real life, haha.

I'm not weird =C
Yeah, I agree that it's far from a perfect solution.

I was just curious on your opinion on what were the most advanced hair implementations I could think of.
 

web01

Member
Bungie has pretty low credibility when it comes to graphics.
Their games have decent art design but that is it.
They really need to work on their human character models too.
 

Sean

Banned
While we're on the topic of what looks horrible in games

I've been wondering, why do we still got ugly grass in video games? You know the really flat floor with green grass textures, is there no way around it? I remember seeing mods for skyrim and you could increase the density of the grass patches and bushes, with modern computers, I'm sure it is possible to fill up an entire area with them, but why don't they fill it all up?

I hate how in most games it's a flat green texture and then like a patch or two of grass here and there. Kameo (which was an Xbox 360 launch title) still has some of the most impressive grass this generation IMO, huge fields of long grass.

kameo10sr5.jpg
 
I hate how in most games it's a flat green texture and then like a patch or two of grass here and there. Kameo (which was an Xbox 360 launch title) still has some of the most impressive grass this generation IMO, huge fields of long grass.

kameo10sr5.jpg

Even more amazing when you consider it was a Gamecube, then a Xbox title before becoming a 360 launch title.
 

mxgt

Banned
I find it really silly that developers on consoles don't aim for at least a consistent framerate at all times. I happily second this, but hold no hope for it :/

They don't because console gamers have shown they generally don't care

Who needs 60 when you can have cinematic 24fps
 

Anteater

Member
I hate how in most games it's a flat green texture and then like a patch or two of grass here and there. Kameo (which was an Xbox 360 launch title) still has some of the most impressive grass this generation IMO, huge fields of long grass.

kameo10sr5.jpg

Wow that does look good, so it is possible to have good looking grass :lol

I remember seeing leaves and grass animates too in Crysis (not sure if it's in the final game, I just saw it in one of the early videos), but after a few years we still have static ones that you walk right through :(
 
ucharted is one of the few games that gets a pass.

but that alice animation, while it looks good, and alot better than most. It does not look very realistic. Basically it looks like shes under water rather than on land.,.

The thing is, it doesn't want to be realistic.

Have you played the game? The hair is like that only when she's in Wonderland.
 

daxter01

8/8/2010 Blackace was here
it is sad that if i want to name top 5 best looking games on PC or Console I wont name an ID game :( why Carmack why ?
 

FreeMufasa

Junior Member
I hate how in most games it's a flat green texture and then like a patch or two of grass here and there. Kameo (which was an Xbox 360 launch title) still has some of the most impressive grass this generation IMO, huge fields of long grass.

kameo10sr5.jpg

Yep. Kameo still look outstanding. And then you have games like Xenoblade for the Wii that can do this.

PEcY5.jpg


Which stretches out for miles.
 
I was promised soft shadows 3 years ago when dx11 was introduced, it's amazing that 99.9 percent of games still have dithering and jaggies...

I'm glad to hear the pop in is in the list again too , that was one of the main selling points of ps2 11+ years ago, anyone remember that?

60 fps , no pop in !! enjoy the power of ps2 now that we no longer have to deal with psx limitations...
Look where we are now with the obnoxious LOD pop in , return of fog 'of war' and -30 fps games :( Just need that wavy effect on 3d graphics and we are back to 1995 in some way.
 
I hate how in most games it's a flat green texture and then like a patch or two of grass here and there. Kameo (which was an Xbox 360 launch title) still has some of the most impressive grass this generation IMO, huge fields of long grass.

I't seems like no one besides Rare (and soccer and football games flower developers ) ever took interest in better short grass. And they've been pushing that since gamecube era.
1d7oV.jpg

1A2M7.jpg

Edit:
Oh, and the sames goes to fur. Even an amazing looking game game like The witcher 2 has a poor solution when trying to replicate a furry coat.
If Rare had "survive" and was allowed to keep making AAA games, modern graphics standards would be different from what we have today. And they would have been Microsoft's Naughty Dog.
 

[Nintex]

Member
If Rare had "survive" and was allowed to keep making AAA games, modern graphics standards would be different from what we have today. And they would have been Microsoft's Naughty Dog.
Rare is hiring new senior designers and they've build a new engine last year so the old dog might not be dead just yet.
 

Anteater

Member
Even a amazing looking game game like The witcher 2 has a poor solution when trying to replicate a furry coat.
If Rare had "survive" and was allowed to keep making AAA games, modern graphics standards would be different from what we have today. And they would have been Microsoft's Naughty Dog.

Yea I remember seeing some good attempts at fur rendering last generation, while not perfect they were at least great efforts, and since they were from last generation, I thought they could easily become the norm and improve, this gen some developers completely gave up on trying...
 
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