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The Big Graphics Problems Bungie Wants To Solve

Those tiny graphical issues are very distracting and does scream 'videogame' and pulls you out of an experience somewhat. I hope next generation will have image quality that is free of any defects (not likely). Even Uncharted 3 I would say is slightly shimmery around the edges sometimes, better during cutscenes obviously since those are not real-time renders. Also in terms of animation, lots of work still needs to be done. I know they tried to make Drake's body react to the environment in 3 but it did not feel natural (good try though) and felt really mechanical and sometimes slightly buggy (flinching arm).

From what I played of Gears of War 3 (multiplayer only at my friend's house), that game has amazing image quality and I don't recall noticing any artifacts around the edges (jags or shimmers), really like how they made things a bit softer too but still keeping the gritty look.
 

Boogdud

Member
It always saddens me to see how much more developer attention (and gamer and even press) is given to iq and effects over framerate and animation quality. When the later two do so much more for gameplay and control.
 
That is fine and all, but you quickly come off as ignorant when you start labeling some of the most competent devs around (SSM, Bungie) incompetent. Even more so when lighting is one of the best things in those games.

If you've actually read what I wrote, you would know that I obviously didn't label Bungie as incompetent given I called Reach one of the best-looking 360 games and imo Bungie is fucking awesome, I also didn't label SSM as incompetent, someone else suggested that they should share some of their magic shadow tech which I found to be nothing special since basically they mostly stayed away from having to shadow the environments.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
I really wish these problems were guaranteed to go away next gen. Like, don't even bother releasing hardware until it is powerful enough to fucking do away with the shitty shadows and aliasing.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I really wish these problems were guaranteed to go away next gen. Like, don't even bother releasing hardware until it is powerful enough to fucking do away with the shitty shadows and aliasing.

You're asking for infinitely powerful consoles.
 
From what I played of Gears of War 3 (multiplayer only at my friend's house), that game has amazing image quality and I don't recall noticing any artifacts around the edges (jags or shimmers), really like how they made things a bit softer too but still keeping the gritty look.

Uhhh... play more or pay more attention.


am i the only one who doesn't really like the hair physics in alice 2? i suppose they fit the world, but they're so... floaty. (yes, i understand there is air lifting her up there. i'm not just talking about that.)

The problem is that people always use that gif with the airlift that makes it look even more floaty. Still, yes, it's supposed to fit the world AND I repeat, it's not like that throughout the whole game ;) The physics are way toned down when outside Wonderland.
 

J-Rzez

Member
Bethesda would benefit from reading this

If they are reading this, someone quick throw up a link on how to QA a game too plz while they're at it.

To me it's odd reading about someone at Bungie talking about visuals in any sense. They make incredible playing games, as in the gameplay is in the tops of the industry (like Blizzard), but visually their games are no where close to being in the tops (like Blizzard). Usually I would be harder on a AAA dev like Bungie for their meh visuals (i mean, they're solid for this gen, but I'd expect more from a big-time dev), but their gameplay more than makes up for it.
 

daxter01

8/8/2010 Blackace was here
I've only played 1 hour of Reach and 2 hours of Gears of war 3 and to me Reach looked more impressive
 

NinjaBoiX

Member
I find it really silly that developers on consoles don't aim for at least a consistent framerate at all times. I happily second this, but hold no hope for it :/
Why do people say shit like this? As if:
A. That isn't every dev's initial intention, and
B. It's just that easy.
To just nonchalantly proclaim that "dev's are silly not to target a consistent frame rate" implies that it just never occurred to them. It's like saying a car manufacturer is silly not to target 60mpg across the range; they would surely love that to be the case, but it just doesn't work that way.
 

AlStrong

Member
For the world lightmap, I don't see why Bungie should be using real time lighting - the campaign spaces are tuned to the time setting, and so are the multiplayer maps. They do use real time lighting on players and other objects up close, but I think for Halo whole-world RTL would have been overkill. In fact, they tried it for Halo 2 already and dumped it because it never worked out.

You're confusing things slightly. They experimented with stencil shadows (at the time there was the whole Doom 3 hype with unified lighting and shadow casting but I digress). They even mention in the blog post that they were trying to combine ambient lightmaps with stencil. The reason stencil was ditched was performance issues since stencil shadows require a shit ton of fillrate and polygon performance (essentially 1:1 pixel resolution and hard edges). With shadow buffers/shadowmaps, they have better control over performance although there is a higher memory cost, but they can always tweak the shadowmap size (and of course introduce all sorts of low res artefacts, but that's the whole trade-off).

Both solutions (stencil and shadow buffers) can be cast in realtime, you just flag the light source for casting shadows (or objects for receiving).

Anyways, yes, a fully dynamic global illumination system (environment) doesn't really make sense if they don't intend on doing time of day shifting. The environment is also mostly static (aside from characters and vehicles), so the baked global illumination makes the most sense (you'll still get the baked lighting changes on character objects moving around the environment since the static environment lights are baked), plus it'd be a higher quality than the SSGI techniques by default since it's much cheaper than the latter (CryEngine 3 for example, which will calculate a couple light bounces for dynamic light sources).

Halo 3+ are using a deferred lighting solution so you'll still get some dynamic lighting from dynamic light sources (weapons), but it just won't be as accurate as there are no bounced lighting calcs ("global illumination"). They're just directional light sources, but again, it's kind of a moot point if the dynamic lights are on-screen briefly (weapon's fire). Eventually, an SSGI technique could be used once the performance is there, but I think you're headed into a region of diminishing returns, and on console, it's going to be about the biggest bang for buck.

Hell, Crytek even disabled SSGI for the current gen consoles for Crysis 2 so...

Why would I need to know about creating levels/games? I'm not a game developer, not even some sort of developer-wannabe, I'm simply stating features I would like to see in a game.

If you did, you'd understand why and how developers have to make certain decisions with a limited time frame for development.

I thought that I saw Al at B3D confirmed the Halo 3 res some time ago for Anniversary.

Thanks for clarifying. :)

I need to do another check on that sometime... the pre-release footage was 640. I may have accidentally told kage it was 720. :p

I'm no expert, but I think their games would be less aliased if they weren't sub-HD.

Yes and no... Obviously, a very low resolution results in gigantic jagged step sizes, but it can depend a lot on the lighting model too and the chosen art direction. I'd say Halo 3 was very jaggy in appearance from the high contrast lighting. Compare this to Mirror's Edge sans AA, and you'll find that 720p doesn't really help. Contrast (herp derp) this to a game with more subdued lighting, like Gears 3 or Fear 2 or any other darker game, and at least to my eyes, the lack of AA can be less of an issue. Gears 2 may also have been kinda dark a lot, but the directional lighting and super contrasty specular made some environments appear a lot more jagged than others.

Honestly, the difference between 640 and 720 is so slight that the size of an edge step is likewise pretty similar. The slight upscale would normally have blurred the edges to some extent although they do a custom fast scaling IIRC - they don't use the automatic scaler, which can do bicubic or bilinear - so as to overlay a full-res HUD.
 

AlStrong

Member
We have the best-looking games like Uncharted 3 that basically features real-time lighting and shadowing in entire scenes where things from characters to environment/objects cast and receive proper shadows, RDR has real-time lighting and day-night cycle, developers have shown that the hardware can support it, I wouldn't call it a limitation due to the hardware, some developers are limited by their talent and sometimes wrong design choices.


Huh? Uncharted 3 does use baked lighting in combination with dynamic lighting. You're confusing things. The baked lighting in the Halo games is referring to baking global illumination (bounced lighting) pre-calculated for the static environment lights.

Your "real-time lighting" in the examples you've listed are for directional light sources with no bounces, which also amounts to what Crysis 2 on console does since Crytek disabled SSGI/dynamic light bounces there.
 
Reach was a super impressive return to form from Bungie's technical staff, I don't get the hate. I can think of very, few, if any, 360 games that achieve what it does.
 

drexplora

Member
in the future there will be one engine!
itll be a perfect simulation of our world and will get "modded" by devs for their ideas
 

TedNindo

Member
I must be one of the only people who would accept better graphics at a solid 30fps then worse ones at 60 fps.

I don't care about 60fps on consoles honestly. But that's mostly because I do my online gaming on PC.

I can't think of a game that would have been a much better experience for me at 60 fps then it was at 30. It would sacrifice 60 FPS immediately for 1080p or better AA at 30fps.

THe only games I can think of that are better at 60 instead of 30 are PC shooters like Quake or CS because of the faster pace of those games. Or a game like Fzero or fighters.
But Halo imo is so slow that it doesn't need it.
 
Voxel engines would be possible, but higher poly count + tessellation still has while to go IMO.

Wouldn't tessellation basically allow for limitless amounts of polygons since it can add greater detail when you zoom in on a object or also add more polygon for environments when viewed far off like a ocean with waves.
 
Wouldn't tessellation basically allow for limitless amounts of polygons since it can add greater detail when you zoom in on a object or also add more polygon for environments when viewed far off like a ocean with waves.
Very many polygons yes, but it can only add depth perpendicular to the surface, like google earths highmaps. (right?)
 
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