Support NeoGAF

[ichtyander]

The throne acutally looks like a human-sized throne stuck on top a giant-sized one. Or maybe it's just me, but I keep seeing huge armrests on either side.

I think you're right, I hadn't noticed this when I finished the game. Makes sense.

Yo ElFly, prepare to get your mind blown away

http://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSouls2/comments/24xxjt/spoiler_source_of_the_tablets_in_the_shrine_of/

Holy crap, that's a great find! I was sure the mural had something to do with Dragon Shrine when I noticed the two dragons at the sides of the long staircase leading to Ancient Dragon that are standing in a similar position, but I've completely forgotten about this detail. Definitely gonna get a closer picture when I get there.

Btw I'm at Drangleic Castle now and managed to get some pics of Nashandra and I'm pretty sure she's wearing the same outfit like on the large cursed painting.

 

[Red Liquorice]

Jesus, human(giant?) Nashandra is creepier than her true form!

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Did anyone try attacking her? I wanted to throw something at her when I was going up the castle, but I thought it seemed too obvious you could attempt it.

 

[SargerusBR]

Did anyone try attacking her? I wanted to throw something at her when I was going up the castle, but I thought it seemed too obvious you could attempt it.

She just stand up and disappears.

That's terrifying, is like she's looking at my soul.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

That's terrifying, is like she's looking at my soul.

It's funny because the game is called Dark Souls. Either ways after reading the thread and the linked article with theories, I can't be truly convinced that the 4 old ones are supposed to be reincarnations of the baddies of DS1 and agree with those saying there's little evidence outside of the souls dropped.

 

[Mistel]

Is that a smirk I see on her face?

 

[ElFly]

WHAT

IN

THE

FUUUUUUCK

I wonder if Aldia just achieved level 999 in the dragon covenant, going by how he possessed the petrified egg in the first place.

also, Nashandra is seriously creepy looking

It's funny because the game is called Dark Souls. Either ways after reading the thread and the linked article with theories, I can't be truly convinced that the 4 old ones are supposed to be reincarnations of the baddies of DS1 and agree with those saying there's little evidence outside of the souls dropped.

They aren't necessarily reincarnations; the whole game rests on the basis of people being able to hold more than one soul (it's the basic gameplay mechanic), so these four old ones received the 4 old ineffable souls, and began changing their behavior (or received their souls because they behaved like the original owners. It's hard to say either way).

 

[Jaeger]

Scary as hell.

 

[ElFly]

Something the reddit thread reminded me is that the Ancient Dragon Soul had the inscription said that the soul was "Created by those who peered into the essence of the soul".

Does that mean the soul itself was created? And then hid into the memory? I am going to ascribe this to a translation error or something, meaning that the dragon was created. I'd wonder if the original text says different.

Something else I noticed is that Aslatiel cannot be mad Lucatiel, as he drops a different sword (not THAT different), the Old Mirrah Greatsword, so I have to assume that we face the real Aslatiel, who was just chilling steps away from where his sister died.

 

[ComaPrison]

This is in response to someone's earlier post. It is said that immediately following Vendrick's invasion of the Giants' Land, the power to create Golems was introduced to Drangleic. It is implied then that he stole the power/knowledge to create Golems. It is also implied that Nashandra was the one who persuaded him of the necessity of invading the Giants. The Smelter Demon's anus face looks like the Giants' anus face. So it implies that the Iron King's creation of the Smelter Demon was due to the knowledge/power brought back by Vendrick.

It is unclear if/when Vendrick obtained the Lord Souls. At some point Vendrick realized Nashandra's agenda and sought to deprive her of the King's Ring, so as to prevent her from accessing the Throne of Want/First Flame. This realization probably occurred sometime after his invasion of the Giants' Land, rather than before. The fact that the Iron King also had the golem-creating power to create the Smelter Demon, implies that maybe his lord soul was also given by Vendrick. If so, then maybe Lost Sinner, Duke Tseldora, Rotten, and Iron King were basically Vendrick's lieutenants/governors. It seems that their insanity began occurring after they became recipients of their respective lord souls, so that's probably what the item flavor text means when the great lord soul descriptions say some stuff about the soul still having ineffable influence or something.

It is also implied that Vendrick shattered and hid the fragments of the lord vessel (now apparently under the Majula Mansion basement) and made the King's Ring and King's Doors out of a fragment. It is implied that this was to ensure Nashandra would not have access to the First Flame/Throne of Want/Memory of Jeigh/Giant Lord soul without first defeating the looking glass knight, passing the milfs-of-Nito's songs (which it is implied that she cannot), defeat the demon of song, defeat Velstadt, and defeat Vendrick. Basically everything from the looking glass knight onwards is nothing but a long-ass gauntlet to prevent Nashandra from obtaining the King's Ring.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I haven't beaten the game yet, but are the scratches on the stone columns in the very first area of Things Betwixt significant at all, or acknowledged anywhere?

 

[ElFly]

So...is Nashandra a giant in her throne sitting form? I have to assume she is from the perspective, and given how her throne in Vendrick's throne room is also oversized.

The throne acutally looks like a human-sized throne stuck on top a giant-sized one. Or maybe it's just me, but I keep seeing huge armrests on either side.

This...is really goofy....but at the same time makes a lot of sense.

However this leaves the question of why the Throne of Want would have a human sized throne, if Vendrick and Nashandra were giants too (we see Nashandra, and Vendrick's throne room has oversized thrones too). Only time we see a human sized Vendrick suggested is in Shrine of Amana.

Me thinks that...Nashandra made herself pass for a giant lady.

So what must have happened is this.

Vendrick defeated the 4 old ones, filled the Lordvessel, and accessed the current version of the Kiln. At the last minute, he decides not to rekindle the first flame, and so the curse keeps going on worse and worse. He destroys the Lordvessel, maybe kills the primordial serpents, and conquers Alonne (mainly by giving / taking advantage of Iron King having Gwyn's soul and going megalomaniacal which leads to Alonne sinking into the lava). Lost Sinner tries to rekindle the first flame herself, and is sent to prison.

Then arrives Nashandra. Nashandra is a giant lady and tells Vendrick that her people hold an artifact that can keep the undead curse at bay, the throne of want. Vendrick travels the seas and steals it from the giants. In this process, Vendrick collected some Giant Souls and became Giant sized as well. Vendrick comes back as a giant, builds castle Drangleic and marries (do they say they married?) the giant Nashandra.

At this point, the giants, without the protection of the throne, go hollow; their faces get the holes we see and once they find out what happened, follow Vendrick. Being hollow, they are relentless in their attack. Finally, an unknown warrior kills the Giant Lord and ends the siege on Drangleic.

Vendrick installs the throne of want on top of the kiln, carves a human sized seat for when he gives up the giant souls, or maybe because he knows the throne will burn his souls like the first flame would...and once again decides against it. Probably because he discovers the truth about his wife and how he was manipulated. He asks his brother for a last favor and hides the Giant Kinship in the memories, and then closes down everything, to prevent Nashandra from accessing the throne herself.

I haven't beaten the game yet, but are the scratches on the stone columns in the very first area of Things Betwixt significant at all, or acknowledged anywhere?

They are the same as the one of the inscriptions in the Shrine of Winter engravings. Haven't had the time to do any attempt to count frequencies of the symbols, but I am assuming they are gibberish.

I mean...the ones in the tutorial stones. If you know of other scratches, I'd welcome a screenshot.

It is also implied that Vendrick shattered and hid the fragments of the lord vessel (now apparently under the Majula Mansion basement) and made the King's Ring and King's Doors out of a fragment.

Wait. WHAT. Do you have any clue on this relationship between the Lordvessel and the ring / doors?

It is implied that this was to ensure Nashandra would not have access to the First Flame/Throne of Want/Memory of Jeigh/Giant Lord soul without first defeating the looking glass knight, passing the milfs-of-Nito's songs (which it is implied that she cannot), defeat the demon of song, defeat Velstadt, and defeat Vendrick. Basically everything from the looking glass knight onwards is nothing but a long-ass gauntlet to prevent Nashandra from obtaining the King's Ring.

Yeah we'd been operating on the assumption Vendrick was like president Madagascar, and upon being told the Dark had installed itself in the land he went SHUT. DOWN. EVERYTHING! and put Velstadt on charge of not letting anyone near him.

 

[ComaPrison]

It's also possible that Nashandra was also normal-sized until after she received whatever it is Vendrick stole from his invasion of the Giants' land. I agree that it seems maybe he stole a number of giant souls. It's already clear from the great souls that powerful souls have a way of shaping their recipient physically and mentally over time.

So...is Nashandra a giant in her throne sitting form? I have to assume she is from the perspective, and given how her throne in Vendrick's throne room is also oversized.



This...is really goofy....but at the same time makes a lot of sense.

However this leaves the question of why the Throne of Want would have a human sized throne, if Vendrick and Nashandra were giants too (we see Nashandra, and Vendrick's throne room has oversized thrones too). Only time we see a human sized Vendrick suggested is in Shrine of Amana.

Me thinks that...Nashandra made herself pass for a giant lady.

So what must have happened is this.

Vendrick defeated the 4 old ones, filled the Lordvessel, and accessed the current version of the Kiln. At the last minute, he decides not to rekindle the first flame, and so the curse keeps going on worse and worse. He destroys the Lordvessel, maybe kills the primordial serpents, and conquers Alonne (mainly by giving / taking advantage of Iron King having Gwyn's soul and going megalomaniacal which leads to Alonne sinking into the lava). Lost Sinner tries to rekindle the first flame herself, and is sent to prison.

Then arrives Nashandra. Nashandra is a giant lady and tells Vendrick that her people hold an artifact that can keep the undead curse at bay, the throne of want. Vendrick travels the seas and steals it from the giants. In this process, Vendrick collected some Giant Souls and became Giant sized as well. Vendrick comes back as a giant, builds castle Drangleic and marries (do they say they married?) the giant Nashandra.

At this point, the giants, without the protection of the throne, go hollow; their faces get the holes we see and once they find out what happened, follow Vendrick. Being hollow, they are relentless in their attack. Finally, an unknown warrior kills the Giant Lord and ends the siege on Drangleic.

Vendrick installs the throne of want on top of the kiln, carves a human sized seat for when he gives up the giant souls, or maybe because he knows the throne will burn his souls like the first flame would...and once again decides against it. Probably because he discovers the truth about his wife and how he was manipulated. He asks his brother for a last favor and hides the Giant Kinship in the memories, and then closes down everything, to prevent Nashandra from accessing the throne herself.



They are the same as the one of the inscriptions in the Shrine of Winter engravings. Haven't had the time to do any attempt to count frequencies of the symbols, but I am assuming they are gibberish.

I mean...the ones in the tutorial stones. If you know of other scratches, I'd welcome a screenshot.

It's also implied that his shattering of the lord vessel empowered each and every bonfire to have fast travel (different from how DS1 required the lord vessel for fast travel) while the creation of Shalotte/Emerald Herald deprived bonfires of the power for granting soul levels.

There are a few reasons for suspecting that the King's Ring + Gates are made from a fragment(s) of the Lord Vessel. Firstly, in DS1, lord vessel was required to open the gate to the first flame. Similarly, King's Ring is now needed to open the gate to the Throne of Want. Secondly, the engravings on the lord vessel are suspected for being reminiscent of the engravings on the king's ring and the design of the king's gate(s). Thirdly, the shattered remnants of the Lord Vessel in Majula's mansion appear to be short of at least one fragment (probably multiple fragments) that you would expect from a fully shattered Lord Vessel. I originally learned about these from some lore-explanation video on youtube.

 

[ElFly]

It's also possible that Nashandra was also normal-sized until after she received whatever it is Vendrick stole from his invasion of the Giants' land. I agree that it seems maybe he stole a number of giant souls. It's already clear from the great souls that powerful souls have a way of shaping their recipient physically and mentally over time.



It's also implied that his shattering of the lord vessel empowered each and every bonfire to have fast travel (different from how DS1 required the lord vessel for fast travel) while the creation of Shalotte/Emerald Herald deprived bonfires of the power for granting soul levels.

I think that the Lordvessel took some part on the creation of Shanalotte, which is why the bonfire network has the warp ability from the start.

It is also possible that, yeah, Nashandra took some giant souls and grew.

However, someone here earlier had the theory that the reason the Giant Souls weaken the hollow Vendrick boss, is because we are time travelling and time stealing the souls that Vendrick used to grow to giant size. We see no such phenomenon with Nashandra, so maybe she was giant sized from the start. The time stealing theory is not perfect, but it's actually pretty clever so I like it a lot.


Something else I checked is the meaning "unbeknownst"

of happening or existing without the knowledge of someone specified &#8212;usually used with to <unbeknownst to us rumors were flying>

So the place unbeknownst (aka the bonfire beyond the King's Door in the Forest), must be Unbeknownst from Nashandra herself. She suspects the Giant Kinship is in the memories, but doesn't know of the place that holds the precise memory.

 

[ComaPrison]

I think that the Lordvessel took some part on the creation of Shanalotte, which is why the bonfire network has the warp ability from the start.

It is also possible that, yeah, Nashandra took some giant souls and grew.

However, someone here earlier had the theory that the reason the Giant Souls weaken the hollow Vendrick boss, is because we are time travelling and time stealing the souls that Vendrick used to grow to giant size. We see no such phenomenon with Nashandra, so maybe she was giant sized from the start. The time stealing theory is not perfect, but it's actually pretty clever so I like it a lot.

The fact that the Giant's Kinship drops from the Giant Lord, and the Giant's Kinship is also needed to access the first flame/Throne of Want, implies that the throne/first flame might actually be what Vendrick stole from the giants.

Description of Giant's Kinship:

Each King has his rightful throne.
And when he sits upon it,
he sees what he chooses to see.

Or perhaps, it is the throne,
which shows the king only what he wants.

 

[ComaPrison]

I think that the Lordvessel took some part on the creation of Shanalotte, which is why the bonfire network has the warp ability from the start.

It is also possible that, yeah, Nashandra took some giant souls and grew.

However, someone here earlier had the theory that the reason the Giant Souls weaken the hollow Vendrick boss, is because we are time travelling and time stealing the souls that Vendrick used to grow to giant size. We see no such phenomenon with Nashandra, so maybe she was giant sized from the start. The time stealing theory is not perfect, but it's actually pretty clever so I like it a lot.


Something else I checked is the meaning "unbeknownst"



So the place unbeknownst (aka the bonfire beyond the King's Door in the Forest), must be Unbeknownst from Nashandra herself. She suspects the Giant Kinship is in the memories, but doesn't know of the place that holds the precise memory.

I like the theory about the MC's giant soul collecting actually occurring in the past and being the reason for Vendrick's weakening. One problem with that theory is that if it was the case, then Vendrick would never have grown into a giant. I'm more inclined to believe that it's simply the MC being strengthened by holding giant's souls.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

They are the same as the one of the inscriptions in the Shrine of Winter engravings. Haven't had the time to do any attempt to count frequencies of the symbols, but I am assuming they are gibberish.

I meant these:

You can see them on the left and right pillars in the second image. Each column has them and they seem deliberately placed rather than just a generic texture/model. A series of straight lines, like tally marks. There's only one grouping of scratches on each column.

 

[ComaPrison]

I meant these:



You can see them on the left and right pillars in the second image. Each column has them and they seem deliberately placed rather than just a generic texture/model. A series of straight lines, like tally marks. There's only one grouping of scratches on each column.

I'm not totally sure that I'm seeing what you're seeing. Rather than tally marks, what I see is a pillar texture that was poorly made by FROM's artists to look like natural wear and tear.

 

[dosh]

Vendrick installs the throne of want on top of the kiln, carves a human sized seat for when he gives up the giant souls, or maybe because he knows the throne will burn his souls like the first flame would...and once again decides against it. Probably because he discovers the truth about his wife and how he was manipulated. He asks his brother for a last favor and hides the Giant Kinship in the memories, and then closes down everything, to prevent Nashandra from accessing the throne herself.

I think that's my favorite part of the lore. The way Vendrick realized his Queen's real nature and how he decided to shut. down. everything. Presumably asking his brother and/or the dragons to keep the Ashen Mist Heart, building the King's Ring gates, commanding Watcher & Defender to eternally guard the throne...
He basically created an unconquerable gauntlet between Nashandra and her prize, before going into exile himself, along with the ring, his guards and Velstadt.

Also, I'm not sure Vendrick hid the Giant Kinship in Jeigh's memory. I think it was there all along, and it's one of the reasons why Vendrick never sat on the throne: he understood it was needed to open the way and decided to never retrieve it, maybe thinking it was safer to leave it where it was and ensuring no one could ever get there.
It's entirely possible I missed something about the Kinship being hidden at some point though.

 

[ElFly]

I think that's my favorite part of the lore. The way Vendrick realized his Queen's real nature and how he decided to shut. down. everything. Presumably asking his brother and/or the dragons to keep the Ashen Mist Heart, building the King's Ring gates, commanding Watcher & Defender to eternally guard the throne...
He basically created an unconquerable gauntlet between Nashandra and her prize, before going into exile himself, along with the ring, his guards and Velstadt.

Also, I'm not sure Vendrick hid the Giant Kinship in Jeigh's memory. I think it was there all along, and it's one of the reasons why Vendrick never sat on the throne: he understood it was needed to open the way and decided to never retrieve it, maybe thinking it was safer to leave it where it was and ensuring no one could ever get there.
It's entirely possible I missed something about the Kinship being hidden at some point though.

That could also be it; knowing he needs the Giant Kinship to actually use the throne, but also knowing he was fooled by Nashandra, he simply didn't have it in him to go to the past through memories and wrong the Giant Lord once more.

 

[ichtyander]

Took a few pics of old man Vendrick, kind of tricky to get a good angle since he's constantly moving.

 

[ElFly]

Hadn't noticed his braids.

Fighting Velstadt and then seeing Vendrick is my favorite part of the game.

 

[ichtyander]

Hadn't noticed his braids.

Fighting Velstadt and then seeing Vendrick is my favorite part of the game.

Loved that part as well. My immediate reaction was "Oh shit! Unexpected boss battle!", then recognizing that this is indeed Vendrick and then the realization that he's just walking around aimlessly is a powerful moment. Even hit him a couple of times and thought he's invincible so I abandoned the idea of attacking him.

Went to the Dragon Shrine and took a couple of closer snaps of the mural as well as different angles of Ancient Dragon.

 

[Mistel]

A giant sized king set and shield that's cool. So how did a hollow take that all off then?

 

[KarmaCow]

This is more about Dark Souls 1 but this seems like the best place to ask.

What is up with the Covenant of Artorias ring? Artorias managed to fend off the dark with his shield and willpower, even up to the end but you as the player the dlc can go kill Manus without any help. If the whole dlc is about the truth behind the Abysswalker legend, what is the purpose of the ring, other than gameplay reasons to gate your progress to the Four Kings? I assume it's linked to Kaathe and he tricked Artorias somehow but it seems so odd in light of the dlc.

 

[ichtyander]

This is more about Dark Souls 1 but this seems like the best place to ask.

What is up with the Covenant of Artorias ring? Artorias managed to fend off the dark with his shield and willpower, even up to the end but you as the player the dlc can go kill Manus without any help. If the whole dlc is about the truth behind the Abysswalker legend, what is the purpose of the ring, other than gameplay reasons to gate your progress to the Four Kings? I assume it's linked to Kaathe and he tricked Artorias somehow but it seems so odd in light of the dlc.

Not sure I remember this correctly but as I understand it, after Anor Londo was flooded along with the Darkwraiths and the Four Kings, Artorias' immense hatred for the servants of Dark led him to acquire the ability to enter The Abyss, I believe in the form of the ring. Artorias did so but was defeated, that's why he's corrupted in the DLC. The ring somehow ended up in the possession of his faithful wolf Sif and the rest is history. Not really sure how the fending off of the Dark ever happened. Since Manus drags you into the past because of one half of his pendant, maybe that's the reason he's been trapped, not sure.

As for actually defeating Manus alone, it just shows that the player is the baddest motherfucker in the history of Lordran since he manages to defeat both Manus and Lord Gwyn.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Really enjoyed the mythos and lore building in this game. It's not as rich or memorable as DS1 and definitely not DeS, mostly for lack of NPCs, but the way it was built up was easily the best developed yet.

 

[Mistel]

Why does the invader wearing Faraam armor have a ruler's sword and a king shield?

 

[ElFly]

Why does the invader wearing Faraam armor have a ruler's sword and a king shield?

Where is this invader?

Feel there is a bunch of invaders / summons who get no info about them at all.

 

[Mistel]

Where is this invader?

Feel there is a bunch of invaders / summons who get no info about them at all.

At the bottom of the pit before the gutter with the dingy cleric lady.

Here a picture of the knight:

There's lots of invaders that are added in new game like the one in things betwixit.

 

[SargerusBR]

Vaati's interpretation of the ending

 

[Toxi]

The way black phantoms were placed reminded me of Demon's Souls more than Dark Souls. Less storyline behind them, they were just random dudes out for your souls.

Really enjoyed the mythos and lore building in this game. It's not as rich or memorable as DS1 and definitely not DeS, mostly for lack of NPCs, but the way it was built up was easily the best developed yet.

I find DS1 easily the most memorable lorewise. The whole great illusion, the idea of inevitable decay, the conflict of holding onto an old world or trying to fit into a new one...

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 2 are too standard in comparison. "There's a big demon/evil queen, go stop it."

 

[cj_iwakura]

The way black phantoms were placed reminded me of Demon's Souls more than Dark Souls. Less storyline behind them, they were just random dudes out for your souls.

I find DS1 easily the most memorable lorewise. The whole great illusion, the idea of inevitable decay, the conflict of holding onto an old world or trying to fit into a new one...

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 2 are too standard in comparison. "There's a big demon/evil queen, go stop it."

Except you're mislead. You're told to hunt the king, and it's actually the queen.

 

[ElFly]

Except you're mislead. You're told to hunt the king, and it's actually the queen.

Eeeh. I assume the waifu does not bother explaining about Nashandra to every undead that comes to Drangleic, and just sends them on their way to meet Vendrick. Only those who get that far get to hear about Nashandra. This is not misleading, just Shanalotte saving explanations.

ANYWAY Vaatividya made two videos on the ending of DS2

https://www.youtube.com/user/VaatiVidya

Not a lot we didn't know yet, except for the detail that he thinks Sublime Bone Dust is the ashes from each Chosen Undead that came before. Which puts a low boundary on how many kingdoms have risen between Lordran and Drangleic, five to be more precise. There could be more.

He also mentions the funny thing about the Throne of Want being a little throne carved on a big throne. More or less is what we've deduced, but it is interesting to see presented in video form.

On other video news, DaveControlLive made a video on the Belfry Bells

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL55-ecU4Tk&list=UUfiIhdy7hncZvdBDbZqSIZg

He thinks that Lost Sinner is the princess, like that other poster who posted his short story before, but his theory is more complicated.

 

[zkylon]

well just beaten the game last night and have thoughts lingering in my head

anyone knows if there's a lore reason for enemies not respawning after 15 deaths?

 

[Mistel]

It's a purely gameplay mechanic I think.

 

[NEO0MJ]

While looking at the artbook I noticed this character who I don't think showed up in the game (correct me if I'm wrong).

The Emerald Herald as a child?

 

[zewone]

While looking at the artbook I noticed this character who I don't think showed up in the game (correct me if I'm wrong).

The Emerald Herald as a child?

"Shanolette (Child)" is listed as a voice actor in the credits.

 

[Screaming Meat]

"Shanolette (Child)" is listed as a voice actor in the credits.

DLC?

 

[Interrobang]

I've been flirting with the idea that CU sits in the Throne to await the next person that tries to open it / kindle the flame. Maybe the ending means, since you inadvertently destroyed / murdered all of its protectors (ie: Velstadt, Throne duo, Mirror Knight) it is now your duty to sit watch?

 

[Jackben]

I've been flirting with the idea that CU sits in the Throne to await the next person that tries to open it / kindle the flame. Maybe the ending means, since you inadvertently destroyed / murdered all of its protectors (ie: Velstadt, Throne duo, Mirror Knight) it is now your duty to sit watch?

CU = chosen undead?

And yes I think the CU has to make a choice just like Vendrick and the undead from Dark Souls: whether to kindle the flame and sacrifice themselves to start the cycle anew, deny this fate and usher in dark until the next chosen undead comes along, or the middle path (which Vendrick chose) which was to aspire to link the flame, but attempt to find a way to circumvent the cycle (ala Shanolette).

 

[Interrobang]

CU = chosen undead?

And yes I think the CU has to make a choice just like Vendrick and the undead from Dark Souls: whether to kindle the flame and sacrifice themselves to start the cycle anew, deny this fate and usher in dark until the next chosen undead comes along, or the middle path (which Vendrick chose) which was to aspire to link the flame, but attempt to find a way to circumvent the cycle (ala Shanolette).

Yeah, CU=Chosen Undead.

Yeah, but I think CU takes denying the fate and ushering in the dark to a whole new level by waiting there to protect it from being kindled.

In DaS1, yes you could usher in the Dark, but you sort of just walked away. Any other undead could have came up to kindle it in your absence. In this ending, we see him devote his life to protecting the dark?

Just an idea.

 

[RVinP]

Would Bonfire Ascetic also contribute to the lore?

Bonfire Ascetic description

Tossing this into a bonfire strengthens nearby foes.

Once the Bonfire Ascetic is devoured by
the flames, its effects can never be reversed.
Be prepared before using this perilous ember.

Fire exhibits a connection to the curse,
and when the flames grow stronger,
so does the curse.

Using it respawns everything which encapsulates the domain of that bonfire, including Bosses.

One could reach the throne, chose to renounce it and fuel all the bonfires with Bonfire Ascetic. On the lines of rekindling the bonfires, without sitting on the throne.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Some thoughts:

From said Drengleic wasn't Lordran, didn't they? I choose to ignore that.

*shrugs*

A big theme of the game is cycles, right? Kingdoms falling and rising, the Chosen Undead's death and resurrection. That's reflected in the player having to go through their own similar cycle using NG+ NG++ etc. As I understand it (because I haven't done it yet), the game slightly changes every NG+ you do, at least up until a point. Added enemies, items, all that jazz.

So what if the world of Dark Souls actually worked like that, but over a much longer span. Tiny changes that take place over millennia to the geography, the architecture, the characters, their histories, their actions and their stories, the entire world over. With every reset these all distort, twist, merge and separate incrementally till they're completely altered, but with perhaps a hint of their original ancestry. Like myths, each telling of the story is slightly different from the last.

I think the player is always presented with the same story: the last days of the Chosen Undead in a ruined world as they struggle to rekindle the fire. We always see the same tale of the Chosen Undead but it too has been subject to thousands of years of changes and stresses that effect the rest of the DS universe.

So, given the time span between DS 1 & 2, imagine what the differences could be like?

(I'm gonna do a Reed Richards and reeeeally reach here. I'm not well versed in the Lore)

Nito lived in the shadows, was the Lord of the Dead, and he had a body made of dry and brittle skeletons. Thousands of years later we have The Rotten who lives in the shadows, is The Lord of Detritus, and has a body made of other, slimy bodies.

The Old Iron King seems to share ancestry with loads, including The Bed of Chaos, Ceaseless Discharge (the Iron Keep to Lost Izalith, at least) and The Four Kings. The Four Kings are interesting because that means they all lost their once successful kingdoms to flooding, except by this cycle we see that Iron Keep has been flooded by bright red lava rather than the blue-black, abyss-tainted water.

Lost Bastille was where Staid said other kingdoms used to throw their undead, I think. That calls to mind the Undead Purgatory in DS1 (you don't leave hints like that for no reason! Come on, From). Where else would the distorted form of The Fire Witch, Izalith go to be punished for what she has done to her family (do we ever see her in DS1?) than The Undead Purgatory, surrounded by water, away from her element.

I dunno, it's all reaching and supposition really, but that's how I like to view it. It ain't full proof.

 

[Haunted]

What's the reason for Grave Wardens being placed in Earthen Peak?

Most of the enemies have a lore connection to the place they're in, but these guys...

Some thoughts:

From said Drengleic wasn't Lordran, didn't they? I choose to ignore that.

Well, Drangleic isn't Lordran, it's Drangleic. But it's in the same place as Lordran, just far in the future, in one of the cycles that come after the player links the fire in Dark Souls 1.

I like the rest of your observations, I don't think each of these is reaching at all, there's clearly a connection between the cycles, the chosen undead, the dark, the fires and the 4 lord souls always being a core element. Think of it as a retelling of the same story, with the same setup and the same roles taken by different people, playing out over and over again.

 

[Mistel]

What's the reason for Grave Wardens being placed in Earthen Peak?

Why are those Wardens so far from the undead crypt they protect? I assume it is due to Mytha probably.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Well, Drangleic isn't Lordran, it's Drangleic. But it's in the same place as Lordran, just far in the future, in one of the cycles that come after the player links the fire in Dark Souls 1.

I like the rest of your observations, I don't think each of these is reaching at all, there's clearly a connection between the cycles, the chosen undead, the dark, the fires and the 4 lord souls always being a core element. Think of it as a retelling of the same story, with the same setup and the same roles taken by different people, playing out over and over again.

Sorry, I meant geographically the same as Lordran (so what you said). I think From said it wasn't (I could be mistaken. I think I saw it on TV Tropes, so y'know...), but there are too many similarities for me to ignore. Word of God is Dead, y'all.

 

[KhayN]

A giant sized king set and shield that's cool. So how did a hollow take that all off then?

It's been speculated that after Vendrick left his soul in Srhine of Amana, Velstadt carried the king already hollow into the undead crypt and let his stuff on the ground so that the choosen undead would not have to kill him in order to get his ring, as the last attempt to protect his king.

 

[B-Genius]

I think that's my favorite part of the lore. The way Vendrick realized his Queen's real nature and how he decided to shut. down. everything. Presumably asking his brother and/or the dragons to keep the Ashen Mist Heart, building the King's Ring gates, commanding Watcher & Defender to eternally guard the throne...
He basically created an unconquerable gauntlet between Nashandra and her prize, before going into exile himself, along with the ring, his guards and Velstadt.

Also, I'm not sure Vendrick hid the Giant Kinship in Jeigh's memory. I think it was there all along, and it's one of the reasons why Vendrick never sat on the throne: he understood it was needed to open the way and decided to never retrieve it, maybe thinking it was safer to leave it where it was and ensuring no one could ever get there.
It's entirely possible I missed something about the Kinship being hidden at some point though.

Yeah, this is really cool. It's like the thought of the curse permeating any further, and more the thought of Nashandra getting what she was after fills him with utter dread, and eventually sends him insane.

Also, instead of "hiding" the Kinship, the very thought of going back into the Giants' memories and reliving all that pain (for both sides) in hindsight probably sends him even further over the edge.

And one extra thing about Vendrick growing huge due to the masses of souls he obtained - remember that going hollow doesn't mean you lose your souls, so he wouldn't shrink back to normal size upon going hollow. I interpret hollowing as literally going empty inside, rendering the souls meaningless to their owner. The fact that you obtain masses of souls from him upon killing him purely suggests his "value" in souls - kind of like the player character's Soul Memory.

Fighting Velstadt and then seeing Vendrick is my favorite part of the game.

Easily one of my favourite parts too. Velstadt's cutscene is beyond badass in its silent, auestere way. It was a fun fight to boot, and following that with the Vendrick reveal accompanied by that melancholic piano... I was just speechless. That was proper Souls right there.

By the way, I dunno if you guys know/care, but Vendrick's name in the Japanese version could be transliterated as "Vanclad" or "Vanklad". Not sure what a proper pronunciation/spelling would be - perhaps someone with a better grasp of Nordic/European languages can suggest?

 

[Haunted]

I don't see the Last Giant/Giant Lord thing. We clearly kill and take the soul of the Giant Lord. Yet he survives that, and ends up in another location without his cape, pants, crown and sword with tons of smaller blades and objects in him? Obviously this Giants battle in the war differed from the Lord's.

And of course the Last Giant would flip out upon seeing us. Did you see all that crap stuck in his body? All he has been fighting is humans. That was the whole point of them coming to Drangleic.

Well, it's doubtful how what we do in the Giant's memories is translated and related to real world occurrences of the time.

The Last Giant boss does have Iron Shackles on his legs which implies that he's been captured at some time. So all the weapons sticking out of him could've been remnants of his battle and eventual defeat, or signs that he was tortured (maybe another explanation for his rage upon seeing a human again?)

That said, people wanting to make a connection between the Lord and the Last Giant is simple to explain: the various Giant soldiers, and Giant sorcerer types have a different model, a different build. They're shorter and stockier. The only two Giants we actually see in-game with the same tall and slender build are The Lord and the Last.

As with most of those observations, there could be meta reasons (boring) and lore reasons (interesting, but sometimes reaching) for that. I.e. the meta reason being that maybe From just cleverly reused assets here, building two boss fights with one base model and one AI script. One lore reason could be that the tall and slender build implies hierarchy (nobility?), so the Last Giant might have been a captured commander of the Giant army left to die in a makeshift dungeon, yet surviving for so long because of the unbreaking will and fortitude of the giants. Another that he actually is the Giant Lord himself.

A good argument can be made for each theory, I think.

Why are those Wardens so far from the undead crypt they protect? I assume it is due to Mytha probably.

I suppose. Just makes no sense, lore-wise. She has her Manikin puppets and the Sorceresses to protect her.

Everything about the Grave Warden lore implies their existence begins and ends with their loyalty to death and to being the wardens of the Undead Crypt. There are no graves in Earthen Peak and there's no implication that knights from the castle of one of the kingdoms ended up as the grave wardens.

If they wanted more enemy variety in Earthen Peak, they should've let the Grave Wardens in the Undead Crypt where they belong and put some other melee knight enemy type there.

Sorry, I meant geographically the same as Lordran (so what you said). I think From said it wasn't (I could be mistaken. I think I saw it on TV Tropes, so y'know...), but there are too many similarities for me to ignore. Word of God is Dead, y'all.

I remember reading an interview saying that it's a different land from Lordran (which it is), but I don't remember the question or the answer to be so specific as to integrate a geographical angle. I've checked the tvtropes page and it doesn't mention anything of the sort. Maybe someone with a better recollection of the interview can chime in. That said, it seems pretty well supported from all the different in-game descriptions and the dialogue that this is another kingdom in the same place as DS1 after a long time has passed.