Mimir said:Some people really did not like the last couple of installments in the Elder Scrolls series, so they tend to ignore the reviewers that were slobbering all over them.
Mimir said:Silent Storm did an amazing job with turn-based combat in a fully 3D world. It's certainly not an impossible task. It'd be even easier and quicker when you only have to control one character.
Darklord said:Why is 1 review from some unknown French guy and a Eurogamer review, a site we all know is all over the place with their scores over rules all the dozens of positive previews and reviews?
Some people WANT this game to suck because it was made by Bethesda(only a company who has made one of the best RPG series around) so they ignore the good and when one bad comes up they latch on to it claiming they were right all along.
IGN: Positive
1up: Positive
GiantBomb: Positive
Gamespy: Positive
Gamespot: Positive
PC Powerplay(Aus mag): 9/10
Hyper(Aus mag): Positive
PC JEUX Magazine: 95%
Shacknews: Positive
Destructoid(or however you spell it): Positive
Personally, I find games like Morrowind disconnect me from the character. With games like Fallout and Torment, it feels like I actually have control of the character, and I'm not just controlling some generic FPS hero.beelzebozo said:this game?
i guess, man. maybe i'm just a putz who thinks isometric pov's aren't designed to connect you to the action or put you in the shoes of a character, and are certainly not conducive to making you feel like you're--to borrow a vietnam phrase--"in the shit." i guess i just always conflate isometric points of view with real time strategy, and i just have a hard time being interested.
Timber said:i am so fucking OFFENDED ARGH
Darklord said:Why is 1 review from some unknown French guy and a Eurogamer review, a site we all know is all over the place with their scores over rules all the dozens of positive previews and reviews?
Lambda players will probably enjoy it. But, us? Well, we still cannot swallow it, this mucky heresy. Sure, I could destroy it, dip it into a vat of hatred just to clean the insult. But it wouldn't make it better. It wouldn't bring Black Isle back. So if you don't mind, I'm going to stop here and have a drink at the café of broken dreams.
Yeah, love the SNES game. I never gave a shit about the shooter, never wasted my energy whinging about it on forums either.Fonds said:Again, I ask of you (cause you ignored me last time):
Big Shadowrun fan?
Timber said:Yeah, love the SNES game. I never gave a shit about the shooter, never wasted my energy whinging about it on forums either.
Drek said:Do you REALLY think Oblivion was a better game than Planescape Torment, Fallout 2, and Baldur's Gate II?
Because if you look at the main stream gaming press' aggregate reviews on all those games Oblivion is by far ahead.
Sorry if that doesn't make some of us a wee bit pessimistic as to their credibility.
edit: Bethesda are what they are, a company that has lead the way in making "consolization" into a dirty word, along side Bioware. It doesn't mean their games are bad, but they lack the depth, character, and unique qualities that make their original great titles fan favorites.
Now they're trying to reach out to different fans, the casual gamer and all that. Good for them, enjoy the goo gobs of money if you're successful. But don't try and blow smoke up my ass about how these games are still keeping to their roots.
On the other hand, don't expect to be able to convince anybody that originally does not like you. NPC reactions are determined by your Karma and even a professional liar won't be able to convince someone who does not like him to become his partner. But have no fear: you can change your reputation just like you can switch clothes. You're too good to obtain what you wish? Steal, kill generic NPCs (those with no name) and here you are: the incarnation of evil! But don't worry: after three days, people forget about your deeds and you are forgiven.
Your karma is too low for a particular quest? Just kill bad guys and give water to hobos (it comes for free if you have your own house) and there you go: holier than saints. Where the first Fallout episodes where built around balancing your own desires and deciding what sacrifices you were ready to do in order to fulfil them, Bethesda sweeps this and allows you to switch styles at will. Nothing is important any more, everything becomes relative. Everything black. Everything white. No need for grey when redemption and condemnation are made so easy.
No, I don't see your point at all, and I'm not sure how my tag relates to this. There's a big difference in changing a game's genre entirely (from RPG to FPS) and going from single to multiplayer only, and simply shifting between subgenres (turn-based to action). I don't think the Fallout comparison is apt. If I weren't looking forward to Fallout 3 then I wouldn't care about it, no matter how much I like the first two games.Fonds said:Surely you must see the point then. Especially considering that tag of yours. Timber Gets it. The exact same could be said for Fallout 1,2 and 3.
The Witcher and Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer are fairly close to golden-era cRPGs. Much closer than I thought would ever happen again from a major developer. But there's always indie developers that carry on the style.Darklord said:If you expect a game this generation to be like Baldur's Gate II then forget it. RPG's like that are very rare if not extinct.
I'll have to differ with you pretty strongly on that point. I don't think Morrowind or KOTOR are great shakes by any means. Good games but they lost a lot of what made Daggerfall and Baldur's Gate appealing.Darklord said:No I don't think Oblivion is better than them. I do however think Morrowind and Kotor are MUCH better than them and they were both on consoles.
Oddworld Inhabitants made that supposed transition in a single console generation. Also Stranger's Wrath was a phenomenal game but other than artistic style it left many of the previous Oddworld trappings behind. It captured much of the asthetic charm but the gameplay was different enough so I'm sure many fans of the originals didn't see it as a real successor to those games.It might take a while for a company to meet that middle bit which is both deep but also easy to get into.
For example, the Oddworld series is one of my favorite games. When the company first took the jump from 2D to 3D it wasn't that great. The next game, Strangers Wrath, was fucking amazing. Sometimes it takes developers a second try to get it right.
To me it sounds like they took out most of the crap that made Oblivion significantly worse than Morrowind, but still not addressing that core issue of devolving game play.Bethesda has made this game deeper compared to Oblivion with more stats, more content and less crap like level scaling(Yeah it is still in Fallout 3 but not like Oblivion, there are some areas which have pre-set levels) and I think that is at least a move in the right direction.
NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer feels like a pretty damn solid attempt.If you expect a game this generation to be like Baldur's Gate II then forget it. RPG's like that are very rare if not extinct.
It's not like the screenshots was the only thing. The developers expected him to review the game in a rather controlled environment with certain restrictions. That's just not fair and will inevitably result in a biased review.bathala said:how can I take a reviewer seriously when his piss off because he didn't get his screenshots.
if he didn't get wat he wants of course it'll be negative
Because he seems more honest more than other reviewers. He was also surprisingly accurate and detailed with all his explanations. There were some things he personally hated, but he explained well enough to make me think "Okay, I can understand why he hates that part of the game but that wouldn't bother me."Darklord said:Why is 1 review from some unknown French guy and a Eurogamer review, a site we all know is all over the place with their scores over rules all the dozens of positive previews and reviews?
SonOfABeep said:Does worry me a bit. If it's truly that easy to influence your karma score, that's a REALLY bad thing. I liked how your actions had permanence in Fallout 1 and 2.. different towns would react to your previous actions.. Being able to reduce your karma score by killing random NPCs and then have it put back to zero after a few days seems like a near game-ruining element..
RobertM said:Because like Oblivion, Fallout 3 will be critisized probably for the same reasons (characters, voice acting, story, quests, etc.) which didn't stop me from enjoying the game. I just wanted to hear how similar and different it is.
I know opinions vary, but I believe the old PC style of quicksaving was actually one of the worst things to hit gaming simply because it promoted lazy, unbalanced level design in so many instances. Checkpoints force balance and improve gameplay. The risk is, of course, that a poor developer will be unable to properly place checkpoints, but in most cases, checkpoints are a superior choice. I just can't imagine how anyone could really enjoy slamming the F5 key every single time you kill an enemy or clear a room. Battles become meaningless in the face of a quicksave key.VATS slow motion may be the worst crime against video gaming since the invention of the auto-aim and checkpoint based save system.
That's precisely what I'm talking about. This "reviewer" seems to be somewhat blinded by his rose tinted glasses. He recalls only the memorable aspects of these older games while completely forgetting about all of the flaws.As much as I loved the original games, they were flawed as well and at the time they received a ton of criticisms.
Drek said:I'll have to differ with you pretty strongly on that point. I don't think Morrowind or KOTOR are great shakes by any means. Good games but they lost a lot of what made Daggerfall and Baldur's Gate appealing.
Oddworld Inhabitants made that supposed transition in a single console generation. Also Stranger's Wrath was a phenomenal game but other than artistic style it left many of the previous Oddworld trappings behind. It captured much of the asthetic charm but the gameplay was different enough so I'm sure many fans of the originals didn't see it as a real successor to those games.
And so far I haven't even really seen an attempt by Bioware or Bethesda to bring some of the depth of their older games into their newer ones. They've had nearly a decade now to do so.
To me it sounds like they took out most of the crap that made Oblivion significantly worse than Morrowind, but still not addressing that core issue of devolving game play.
Basically, in what way is Fallout 3 more a role playing game than Far Cry 2? Because it has a level counter you can look at? Because some quests have you play the roll of post-apocalyptic FedEx guy? The gameplay still boils down to killing X to get/reach Y.
dark10x said:It's interesting to read such a negative opinion, but I get the feeling he's too caught up in older PC games and unwilling to accept any sort of change. He's a fan of old mechanics, dated or not.
The comment that really raised an eyebrow was...
I know opinions vary, but I believe the old PC style of quicksaving was actually one of the worst things to hit gaming simply because it promoted lazy, unbalanced level design in so many instances. Checkpoints force balance and improve gameplay. The risk is, of course, that a poor developer will be unable to properly place checkpoints, but in most cases, checkpoints are a superior choice. I just can't imagine how anyone could really enjoy slamming the F5 key every single time you kill an enemy or clear a room. Battles become meaningless in the face of a quicksave key.
I believe Yahtzee's review of STALKER Clear Sky was right on the money with this. It's an OLD PC design limitation that should remain extinct.
Auto-aiming is an entirely different issue, but in general, I feel mild aim correction (ala Halo) is preferred (and necessary) for a console based shooter. You can still present challenging, enjoyable gameplay with this. Try playing Crysis with a 360 pad (no auto aim of any sort) and you'll see why it's such a good idea for consoles. On the PC, however, auto-aim actually seems pretty rare so I don't understand the complaint.
I'm harping a bit too much on a small sentence, but I believe that it reveals the nature of the person spilling his impressions on Fallout 3. I don't completely disagree with some of the ideas that he presents and I can see where problems may lie, but I also feel that some jaded gamers are so caught up in the past that they fail to give credit to areas that are improved. I mean, one of the most beloved PC games of all time is Deus Ex (I certainly love it), but the game has so many poorly designed or broken elements that would NEVER fly today contrasting with its brilliance. So, yes, there may be no other game that matches certain great aspects of an older game (such as DE or Fallout or anything else), but these newer games make tremendous strides in completely different areas. Areas that I feel are brushed aside all too quickly (things that go beyond the visuals).
Of course, I can't deny that simplification is a bit disappointing when dealing with situations like this, but that certainly isn't going to RUIN a game for me.
That's precisely what I'm talking about. This "reviewer" seems to be somewhat blinded by his rose tinted glasses. He recalls only the memorable aspects of these older games while completely forgetting about all of the flaws.
The problem with some of the ambititous ideas you see in certain older games is simply that implementing such ideas in a modern title is a tremendous task. You basically have to balance yourself between releasing a polished experience or a somewhat broken, but deep, game. STALKER is a great example of this extreme. It's a fairly rich game and offers plenty to the player, but it's held down by a lack of polish and plenty of broken mechanics and ideas.
Which system? Checkpoints, Auto-aim, or VATS?Bluemercury said:EDGE was also critic of the system....
HK-47 said:And I'll be pissed if they do the same shitty VA job they did on Oblivion
Mimir said:The Witcher and Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer
Zzoram said:Oblivion was really fun if you didn't think about the flaws.
Xboxygen: positive (french) We were in this "luxurious hotel" too.Darklord said:Why is 1 review from some unknown French guy and a Eurogamer review, a site we all know is all over the place with their scores over rules all the dozens of positive previews and reviews?
Some people WANT this game to suck because it was made by Bethesda(only a company who has made one of the best RPG series around) so they ignore the good and when one bad comes up they latch on to it claiming they were right all along.
IGN: Positive
1up: Positive
GiantBomb: Positive
Gamespy: Positive
Gamespot: Positive
PC Powerplay(Aus mag): 9/10
Hyper(Aus mag): Positive
PC JEUX Magazine: 95%
Shacknews: Positive
Destructoid(or however you spell it): Positive
Fonds said:I think you're missing the point. These guys had the audacity to call their game Fallout fucking 3. It would have been fine if it was just a half decent post apocalyptic shooter with some light RPG sprinklings. But it's supposed to be a sequel to one of the best RPGs ever made.
The stakes are simply higher than 'not being able to enjoy some random videogame'. I can definitely do that, but this is something else, this is personal.
They gave Mask of the Betrayer a 7/10 because it was only for fans of the genre.Darklord said:Both of them got a 7 from Eurogamer so lets not take their negative preview of Fallout 3 to heart too much.
So where does that leave us? A mass of excellent content - any add-on pack good enough to make you start the original has more than a certain something - with a few problems. It really isn't for anyone other than the devoted western-RPG head. Which is fine; the devoted western-RPG head has had a particularly weak year, and will lap this up. As they should. But if you're not in their ranks there's little here for you.
hrm...saunderez said:I love this...1 bad preview and everyone drops the game completely. Forget about the good reviews (newest one I read was 9/10 from Australian gaming mag PC Powerplay). 1 negative preview is all it takes! Meh, you're the ones that are going to miss out on a great game.
Don't change GAF....
Adventure games have nice stories. Platformers have massive unique worlds. In what way does it make these games good RPGs?Darklord said:I guess it's just preference of games. I loved Morrowind because of its massive unique world, amazing soundtrack, great story and tons to explore. I loved Kotor because it had an amazing list of characters and story.
See above, an RPG doesn't have anything to do with stats. Hinterlands doesn't have an overly burdensome stat system but it involves much more role playing than any game Bethesda and Bioware have made in a while.Morrowind was very deep and Kotor had amazing characters and story telling. A game doesn't need 500 stats to make it a true RPG. It's only this generation that has dropped in quality.
I honestly don't care about level scaling and shallow statistical systems nearly as much as the fact that they're getting iteratively less and less original and diverse in story structure and plot development. They're basically embracing the worst traits of JRPGs, but without the anime fan service roots that JRPGs largely feed on today.Adding more stats and fixing level scaling is 2 of the core issues that devolved the gameplay. I'm not sure what you mean.
Great, then don't try and sell the fans of Fallout 1&2 a bill of goods like Bethesda has. They kept saying that the original fans wouldn't be left out and that the game would be for them too. So what, now everyone should just ignore those blatant lies and heap accolades on a game that completely didn't deliver?Well I haven't played Fallout 3 so I can't properly answer this but as Oblivion you have to expect it'll be an Action/RPG not a full on RPG.
Oh really? Because Feargus Uquhart of Obsidian said some publishers approached them about making Fallout 3 if they (the publisher) was to get the rights.I just think people look at what the game doesn't have rather than what it has. No it won't be as RPG heavy as older games. No it won't be a perfect game. Look at it this way, we wouldn't even be getting a new Fallout without them and lets face it, the last 2 were crap so the series isn't flawless.
Whiny fanboys throw fits because Diablo 3 has some color in the palette. That is an artistic design choice that in no way lies to the consumer about a dramatic change in what they're being hyped up to receive.People are just too quick to judge. They kick up a stink because there is too much colour in Diablo 3. They whine over the word "Origins" in Dragon Age. They complaining because Starcraft 2 is split into 3 games even though they know it would have gotten an expansion or 2 anyway.
verio said:Have you watched the 'Megaton' videos, yet?
The VA looks to be no different than Oblivion... so, yeah, stiff animations and sub-par voice acting.
Mimir said:The Witcher and Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer are fairly close to golden-era cRPGs. Much closer than I thought would ever happen again from a major developer. But there's always indie developers that carry on the style.
Anyone that's upset about how Fallout 3 is turning out, and really was hoping for a game closer to the originals should check out Age of Decadence. Fairly different setting, but the gameplay should be much closer.
chespace said:I need to play Witcher. Big time.
I love golden-era CRPGs and most recently have gone back and played Baldur's Gate II.
But yeah, I grew up on CRPGs (Wizardry I and II, Ultima I-IV and Bard's Tale on Apple II) and stuff like the old SSI D&D games and beyond on PC XT and ATs.
I did not like Oblivion's idea of what an RPG is -- generic action, relative leveling, and zero plot.
Let's hope Fallout 3 is better.
Anyone who likes RPGs should play it. Absolutely should not be missed.chespace said:I need to play Witcher. Big time.
chespace said:I need to play Witcher. Big time.
I love golden-era CRPGs and most recently have gone back and played Baldur's Gate II.
But yeah, I grew up on CRPGs (Wizardry I and II, Ultima I-IV and Bard's Tale on Apple II) and stuff like the old SSI D&D games and beyond on PC XT and ATs.
I did not like Oblivion's idea of what an RPG is -- generic action, relative leveling, and zero plot.
Let's hope Fallout 3 is better.
No Means Nomad said:French review? I think you mean Freedom review.