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The Last of Us wins over 200 Game of the Year awards!

M

mark1982

Member
The Last of Us wins over 200 Game of the Year awards

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B

bigboss370

Member
Neuromancer said:
More proof that TLoU is a populist pleasing dude bro action game with mostly mainstream appeal, like CoD:MW2 before it.

I know some here like to hold it up as art and proof of legitimizing gaming, but it's definitely more Michael Bay than Stanley Kubrick.

Gaming doesn't yet have its Citizen Kane but at least it has its Transformers.
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Elginer

Elginer

Member
Well deserved. One of the most amazing games I've ever played and left a hell of an impact once the credits rolled. Brought ND to my fav developer perhaps ever.
 
M

Marjar

Banned
Shinta said:
Amazing post
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I think this pretty much tackles all my problems with the game, and why I ended up giving up halfway in.

The intro scene in particular I cannot agree with more. I really don't understand what people saw in that sequence.
 
DR2K

DR2K

Banned
Eh, amazing game, but there were plenty of other games released that could and should of won this honor.
 
H

Hubb

Member
Marjar said:
I think this pretty much tackles all my problems with the game, and why I ended up giving up halfway in.

The intro scene in particular I cannot agree with more. I really don't understand what people saw in that sequence.
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Well you gave up halfway so spoil yourself if you wish, but:

Ellie is Joel towards the end of the game. Crazy I know, but Joel had survivor's guilt just like Ellie did at the end of the game. If we didn't have the opening scene/prologue the game wouldn't have set up Joel properly to make sense in the story.

Without understanding what happened to Sarah, and why Joel acts the way he does (cold to everyone) it would make the warming up to Ellie and the eventual connection to his daughter Sarah seem disjointed.

The opening was to show how much he cared about his daughter and that even though he promised her everything would be right, not only did he lie, he lived and she didn't. The card Sarah wrote her Dad, also shows how much he cared for her.

DR2K said:
Eh, amazing game, but there were plenty of other games released that could and should of won this honor.
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Eh, you should probably post them with reasons if you really want this to be a good post. Otherwise what is this post supposed to be?
 
H

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
SirCrush said:
Remember Fallout 3? Journey? Did they have many complaints, even months later? TLOU is in that crop.
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Fallout 3 had complaints before it even released. Journey also wasn't free of complaint. At this point everyone predicting TLOU backlash is just helping a self fulfilling prophecy.
 
T

Tripon

Member
Vizzeh said:
Do you follow IGN and their audience?

- For reference, I'll Reiterate, TloU "isnt" Playing it safe. Under IGN's target audience/Usual COD catering (ofc that wouldnt be GOTY) So im happy that a major outlet is supporting a PSexclusive, that deserves it.
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IGN gave Journey their GOTY in 2012. So I don't know what you are talking about. If anything they have supported Sony exclusive games pretty well.
 
O

omonimo

Banned
Shinta said:
Well, I said the gameplay isn't better than Tomb Raider's gameplay, and my post was basically entirely about the gameplay alone. I don't think TR has a good story either. If I compared the two games just on story alone, I'd probably give it to TLoU. However, I really enjoyed the gameplay in TR, and for a AAA action/platformer, I thought it was fun and well made, and gorgeous.

Being 100% honest, I really don't have a GOTY pick nailed down for 2013.

Games that were in the running for me entirely because of their gameplay were Mario 3D World, Legend of Zelda: ALBW, Luigi's Mansion 2, Pikmin 3, Fire Emblem Awakening. I'm not a Nintendo fanboy; I just got a 3DS and Wii U this year. But really, they had a fantastic 2013. I also really enjoyed Dragon's Dogma: DA, but since the original came out last year I wouldn't vote for it. One of my very favorite games of the year was Splinter Cell: Blacklist, but that has a crappy story.

Even then, I really can't decide on a GOTY. I don't have a pick yet, and I own several games I still need to play.

If you're talking about games that elevate gameplay "this entire generation," I'd put Ninja Gaiden 2 at the top. The list of other games out with fantastic gameplay is too long to really discuss here. Valkyria Chronicles is also another criminally underrated one. X-Com gets praised, but VC did it years earlier, and it was better and more original. Mixing TPS and SRPG that seamlessly was brilliant, and new. Vanquish is another. Controversial choice, but I'd also list RE6 for the many innovations to TPS combat that it brought. Uncharted 2 probably deserves a nod for basically creating its own new sub-genre. There's tons more I'm sure, and it could be its own entire thread.
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I'm not want to sound repetitive but I definitely agree with the last post quoted from Vizzeh. It resume perfectly my though. TLoU it's the pinnacle of the ND game. It shows perfectly how much are maturated ND from JaK & Daxter era, or the same Uncharted. Sure, it's not perfect, but did what promised. It's stealth game, gameplay wise, (well, in my opinion) with a good amount of action but more important, it's a game who want to tell a story 'leaving' something in the gamers souls.
It's not that easy to achieve. The last Tomb raider prove it. What I though about the last Tomb Raider, it's CD has completely missed their primary target. They put a lot of emphasis to the human Lara frailty plot, to ruin completely Lara. I hate how stereotypical is her. Look the womans in TLoU. It seems CD developers come to another planet & they haven't seen a woman in their whole life.
Yeah, probably gameplay in Tomb Raider it's even more refined, but it proved how tough is achieve game like TLoU to the others. Just this it's the main reason to deserve so many GOTY. The best for CD, it's come back to their step & rethink to somethink like Tomb Raider Anniversy. I adore it, I want something like that from them. If really they want to realize something of more mature, I think the best way it's a whole new series. But it's ot.
 
V

Vizzeh

Banned
Tripon said:
IGN gave Journey their GOTY in 2012. So I don't know what you are talking about. If anything they have supported Sony exclusive games pretty well.
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Your picking me up wrong. I explained what I meant further in the thread. I didnt say they couldnt. I said it gives more satisfaction them getting Gofty given their target market. As I said earlier thats my opinion.
 
E

EGM1966

Member
Shinta said:
I think the gameplay in The Last of Us is pretty terrible, so I can give you my reasons at least.

1) The stealth is more basic than Tenchu Z. You basically just crouch and creep around, and the game puts more focus on sound detection. Despite that, jumping over cover spots, dropping down from elevated areas don't seem to make any additional noise. The stealth takedowns are very basic, and mostly are just a rear choke-hold.

Agree on the sound however the actual mechanic design makes total sense in context to me. Every character is "just a guy" in TLOU. You are not a trained agent a'la Sam in Splinter Cell and you perform fairly rough and ready takedowns. Given the focus in TLOU is a broad set of decent mecahnics with no central focus on any one mechanic there seems little need to multiple takedown options and I don't think having them would add to the game. Joel is a big guy and a standard guy - he's not going to be performing perfect drop falls onto anyone. given the context - real world normal people who are survivors of the fall of society - I'd say creeping around, ducking down and roughly grabbing people from behind feels just about right in contect. Anything else would be ignorning character/context reality to force additional gameplay options (I get some people prefer this but it's not the design choice for TLOU and what's there works in context).

2) The enemies are very poorly designed. (Snip for length)

Seems hyperbolic to me. The realistic tone limits options for multiple foes/bosses. RE4 (your example) is a clear fantasy world with little to no limitations and is essentially a "pure game" with a simple story for context. TLOU (right or wrong depending on your personal preference) is aiming for a far more realistic setting/tone and by design clearly limits itself accordingly. 4 varieties of infected is arguably already getting a little unrealistic and of course with human enemies you can only really justify so many varieties before it gets silly (I'd note that in Uncharted, which is less bound by realism than TLOU ND happily used armour and the usual tropes to artificially inflate enemy variety so they are capable of it - in TLOU they clearly didn't do so for realism vs any lack of ability).

As for the Clickers their design vs other infected seems sensible to me and allows for multiple mechanics. One is to sneak but you seem to think this is the only choice. You can fight them if you chose; but sure it's risky - it should be that's why they get in your face so fast. Of course you can use situational objects to distract them or combine approach - throw a brick to cluster them together then use a Molotov to get them all. I really don't buy the "they limit gameplay" argument at all. I used multiple approaches and never found them unfair to deal with at any time.

All in all the various forms represented a sensible set of creatures given they had to be somewhat more believable than usual in a game and had to realistically spring from the real world infection ND used as inspiration for the infection/spores.

They're not perfect but I see no justification vs other games to claim they are completely broken.

3) The first 4 hours of the game might as well have been a cutscene, because you basically just followed an NPC down a narrow road and watched cutscenes. I love FFXIII, and TLoU's intro was so scripted and linear that even I felt suffocated.

Again hyperbole response much? Clearly I disagree. The first 4 hours are full of gameplay and represent a sensible progression from starting in a normal world through the outbreak to teaching you the mechanics of the game and the rules of TLOU's feral and decayed world. The first 4 hours follow classic gameplay design to introduce and explain mechanics in game with no forced tutorial and also nicely blend in all the initial character and world exposition. The plot makes sense perfectly throughout - sorry to say but I feel you are really reaching for the sake of complaint here and you provide zero evidence to back your claims.

4) There is very little verticality allowed in the stealth, or the level design. In one of the first missions I was with Tess going to get the guns from the guy who double crossed them. They showed that we were sneaking into a large area and were greatly outnumbered. There were gigantic metal shipping crates stacked all over, with smaller wooden crates next to them making natural stairs. Being a stealth focused game (and a Naughty Dog game) I naturally assumed you could at least do limited platforming to climb a couple boxes and get a better perspective to see the enemy patterns, but you can't at all. Instead of having level design that helps make stealth gameplay organic, they instead had to add x-ray vision for Joel.

Somewhat agree although I'd note that over the length of the game a fair number of vertical encounter arenas exist and there game does feature a reasonable amount of vertical engagements. I would have preferred a bit more flexibility from Joel (not to Uncharted levels but somewhat more free-form climbing). In the end though I can see it would have played merry hell with the already complex companion AI and to be fair ND clearly designed Joel as a big guy with a big backpack and a lot of weapons on his back : a design that visually makes climbing quietly seem unlikely and somewhat justifies the (I suspect gameplay and AI complexity driven) need to limit and control vertical engagements (although as noted they do exist although they tend to come later in the game).

5) The partner AI ruins the game's main strength, presentation and immersion. Everyone is aware of this one. You're sneaking around a clicker and Ellie just goes barreling right past them, jumping and talking to you full volume and no one notices. You remember how frustrating I said it was to be forced to walk slowly for 30 minutes? It's even worse when Ellie is able to just run all over and you have to watch.

Somewhat agree but again I think you're over-stressing the overall affect. As I've noted in other posts I think this was pretty much unavoidable as ND simultaneously wanted AI companions that move, fight and hide with you while also forcing the companion AI to give way to you and try to also respond to enemy placement. The challenge of balancing all of this was too complex and was always going to fail on occasion.

I will note though that in my experience it mostly fails when player instigated - for example moving Joel much further forward than makes sense with two companions following you or by taking cover for yourself and forcing the companion to move. If you play more realistically (i.e. if Ellie has cover letting her keep it and finding somewhere else as would likely be the choice in real life) the companion AI tends to fail a lot less. In the end it doesn't work all the time though. Personally I never really bothered when Ellie ran by after I crept past though as the alternative was either to have Ellie force me into combat because she couldn't get past in stealth herself (which I wouldn't want since I had just spent ages creeping by) or have Ellie hang way back artificially (which I guess some would prefer but I'd argue this would then spoil the other AI design aspects of having her fight with you when combat does occur). It's not ideal but I can't see any better solution given the game design and console spec limitations.

6) It's a game about two people and the 2nd person is basically non-existent as far as gameplay systems design is concerned. RE4 has you protecting Ashley from damage, sneaking around as Ashley, strategically hiding her in dumpsters instead of making her invisible and invincible. TLoU basically just doesn't even try to make this work.

Totally disagree. TLOU has some of the most complex companion AI I've seen in a console game. In RE the companion AI is weak and relies on you directing it for the most part or it engages in obvious combat (a'la HL2). In TLOU the companion AI is dyanamic and situational. You are also flat out wrong regarding being invisible or invincible. In TLOU the companions can get in trouble requiring you to help them (it all happens dynamically rather than being scripted or forced) and if you fail to rescue them they die (and you get a game over of course). If you get into combat the AI will fight with you and assist you and again they can be hurt. If you break combat and hide the AI companion will also break combat and hide again. Your companions are not always invincible and they are only invisible when you are sneaking (a much discussed compromise to solve a complex path-finding player agency conflict) - they are not invisible during combat. Again it's not perfect but it should be recognized ND took on far more complexity than normal with the design and delivered more complex dynamic AI than usual. You are completely over-stressing this point. In TLOU you have some of the most believable, dynamic and responsive companions ever delivered vs simplified, scripted companions.

7) The game's "puzzles" and platforming were very bad. Moving around crates and dumpsters felt like a Dreamcast-era box puzzle, something I thought was officially gone from gaming in 2013, let alone a big budget game like this. Moving planks around was equally cumbersome and simplistic. Moving Ellie on a raft is basically another box puzzle, but with water physics added (barely). People trash the tombs in Tomb Raider, but TLoU makes them look like master class puzzles.

Don't really agree as I don't see the game as having traditional puzzles. It's not Myst. The goal is realism. In context the only puzzles that make sense are environment challenges for Ellie or Joel (which as in the real world really come down to either moving stuff out the way or pilling stuff up to get somewhere), or finding a key or object to progress (again simplistic but completely realistic). In context you would expect to have to find a key card to a locked door not search for 5 objects to combine to build a card reader override using skills your character would never actually possess. There are no Tombs with traps or genuine puzzles to solve. TLOU takes place in open country or cities - such puzzles simply wouldn't exist in context.

The much cited raft also makes sense too. It's very likely in context Ellie can't swim. It's pretty likely sometimes you would need to get her past some water. My only gripe is the answer was almost always a pallet but all games repeat content and given they only use the mechanic like three times I accept there was no need to design three or four different objects to put Ellie on to get her over some water. I'd note it makes sense that in most cases the "puzzles" involve helping Ellie - they are they to re-enforce the character bond (and your own bond) with her, not as genuine player challenge puzzles.

For me game puzzles would make no sense in TLOU and again I'd note in other games where they make sense ND seem capable of delivering them (Uncharted, etc) so it's clearly a design limitation not an ability one.

8) The crafting system being real time doesn't really add much to the gameplay in my opinion, and it doesn't make as much of a difference as the earlier trailers made it seem like it would. If some of you guys liked it, cool. I really didn't think it added anything.

I don't think it's meant to. The game isn't an RPG with stats/levels and complex crafting. It's there to recreate a simply mechanic that would make sense realistically - you see a bottle, you seem some oil, you see some rags and you want to make a Molotov as a makeshift weapon because you exist in a broken down world where this makes sense. From a gameplay mechanic it is real time because what ND are trying to simulate is a situation where you see some objects you can use, sneak up and fetch them 'cause there are a group of people on guard who would kill you the second they spot you milling around, then hastily combine them while hoping that while your attention is occupied they don't move or discover you. That's it. Works fine in context. It's a minor system but it makes sense given the game design. Not even sure why you're citing it as a potential issue with the game.

9) The game has very, very weak level up abilities that don't add a lot to gameplay, and can probably be skipped if you want. The counter is probably the best one.

Again it's not an RPG. I wouldn't expect any leveling abilities other than the limited ones available (and even then I'd prefer they were limited purely to improving your weapons a little with available tools). Given the mechanic is kept simple for realism it makes sense the impact on gameplay is somewhat limited (although some aren't - being able to Shiv Clickers for example does have a fairly big impact). I'd say there are a few options that are "must haves" and the rest while sensible in context are pretty light. So I agree on how light the mechanic is but don't see how it is flawed or fails in the context of TLOU design criteria.

10) I didn't like the handling and the feel of the bow. It might be because Tomb Raider came out in the very same year, and they're kind of similar games. But the handling and feel of the bow in TR was just so much better.

Subjective I guess. I had no issue with it. Control made sense in context for me - i.e. it wasn't perfect. All I can say is I prefer where a game is trying to be realistic gameplay perfection is sacrificed for realism so long as it isn't taken too far. Seems though you're stating a personal preference as a definite flaw in the game which feels like another stretch though.

11) For a game focusing on story and presentation over gameplay, I thought it was a really weird decision to have such trial and error gameplay that demanded frequent restarts. It took me out of the experience that they tried so hard to prioritize. Just broadly speaking, the gameplay systems don't really further the telling of the story, or the immersion for me. It's a very, very limited trial and error stealth TPS chopped up and grafted onto a story.

You'd need to name a game that doesn't have this (where there is combat, stealth and fail states) for me to even answer this : you're talking about a core component of almost all games - of course it has trial and error and fail states, what were you expecting?

All I can say is I found the game reasonably balanced and never felt I artificially failed - surely the only complaint in a game like TLOU is that it is unbalanced and you can fail unfairly?

Again though you seem to be over-stressing your point: "very, very limited trial and error"? Didn't feel that unfair and certainly not that trial and error. If you stay out of sight no-one spots you. If they spot you it's because you failed to move when you were clear to do so. When spotted combat unfolds fairly and you can even get back to stealth (albeit against alerted enemies) rather than having foes magically know where you are.

I'm not even sure if I should take the story/gameplay comment seriously. As has been covered all over the place TLOU balances story/gameplay better than most other games. It's not perfect but it's way up there with the best. We'd need to criticize hundreds of other games on this point before we even got to TLOU level of success. Just the opening alone balances flight and combat with strong character and narrative exposition.

And I didn't think the story was strong enough to carry the poor gameplay. The intro was supposed to be the watershed moment, when
his child dies. But I didn't see why this was better than the intro in Splinter Cell Conviction, or the intro in Mass Effect 3, which people criticized heavily. It's the same weak story hook. A little kid dies, and we only care for the sole reason that its a little kid and that is supposed to be shocking. In Mass Effect 3 I remember laughing at how obvious and transparent the attempt to force emotional content was, and it was a very similar intro for TLoU. We know nothing about this girl, and yet her death is the driving force for the entire story? The intro's only real gameplay was walking around in the house, suspecting a break in or something gone wrong. I thought that this was also extremely similar to the intro to Splinter Cell Conviction, with Sam protecting his daughter from a home burglary attempt. At least in that game, they use that as not just a story intro, but a tutorial to set up the Mark and Execute system, while TLoU feels content with not letting the gameplay start for hours.

Then shortly after that,
you have to go "get your guns back" with Tess. Okay, what are the guns for? They never say. Why is it worth it to take on a suicide mission escorting Ellie for "guns" when they have guns already? They never say. Literally the entire story is hanging on their desire to get these guns. Tess dies because she wants these guns. For a game focusing so much on story, I don't think it even really has a great one.

Again not sure if serious - and this response is getting too big -
but briefly in ME you artificially meet a random kid then seconds later he dies off screen in a fairly tired cliche designed to make that one kid represent all of humanity to focus your emotion and haunt the lead character. In TLOU you spend time as the kid, you feel them as a character because initially you are them. Then you switch to the main character and interact believable with the kid in a protracted and realistic situation that escalates rapidly to life threatening. The kid is yours by this point - both narratively and in terms of gameplay and exposition. The impact when the kid dies is fair, earned and much stronger than ME.
That's why TLOU is considered superior - based on the critical criteria for books/films and character development it is superior.

As for Tess I'm afraid - not wanting to be rude - that you've clearly completely misunderstood the story or what was going on because the guns are irrelevant and out of the picture by that point. Tess dies for something else entirely. Again, sorry, but you've failed to understand the narrative and character development totally there. Makes me wonder how much this miss-reading might be impacting your reaction if it extends beyond that instance to a broader failure to track the character's motivations and the narrative exposition.

I can probably think of some more, but that's just off the top of my head.

I can definitely admit it's a gorgeous game, and well made in some ways. But I wouldn't ever rate it as GOTY, and when people do, it makes me a little sad because the game doesn't do much to actually further gameplay in any way, and is far behind RE4, which came out in 2005, in terms of actual gameplay and was one of the first highly influential TPS/stealth/horror games on consoles. The gameplay isn't even better than Tomb Raider.
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Some thoughts. Agree in some areas disagree with others and find you're over-stressing almost every point in terms of fair comparison to games in general.
 
D

daviyoung

Banned
omonimo said:
What I though about the last Tomb Raider, it's CD has completely missed their primary target. They put a lot of emphasis to the human Lara frailty plot, to ruin completely Lara. I hate how stereotypical is her. Look the womans in TLoU. It seems CD developers come to another planet & they haven't seen a woman in their whole life.
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No idea where you're getting this from. Lara starts off as a level-headed strong-willed girl, morphs into a bad-ass at around the second level, carries on being a bad-ass as everyone else dies, and ends as the bad-ass we knew from previous Tomb Raiders. It was supposed to be an origins story after all.
 
O

omonimo

Banned
daviyoung said:
No idea where you're getting this from. Lara starts off as a level-headed strong-willed girl, morphs into a bad-ass at around the second level, carries on being a bad-ass as everyone else dies, and ends as the bad-ass we knew from previous Tomb Raiders. It was supposed to be an origins story after all.
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What idea? It's how CD promote Tomb Raider to the public. They talk to the feel of protect her. It's something who I haven't feel for a second. To be honest, I hate her from the start to the end how stupid & superficial appear.
 
D

daviyoung

Banned
omonimo said:
What idea? It's how CD promote Tomb Raider to the public. They talk to the feel of protect her. It's something who I haven't feel for a second. To be honest, I hate her from the start to the end how stupid & superficial appear.
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Their promotion had nothing to do with what happened in the actual game though.
 
S

Shinta

Banned
EGM1966 said:
Some thoughts. Agree in some areas disagree with others and find you're over-stressing almost every point in terms of fair comparison to games in general.
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"As for Tess I'm afraid - not wanting to be rude - that you've clearly completely misunderstood the story or what was going on because the guns are irrelevant and out of the picture by that point. Tess dies for something else entirely. Again, sorry, but you've failed to understand the narrative and character development totally there. Makes me wonder how much this miss-reading might be impacting your reaction if it extends beyond that instance to a broader failure to track the character's motivations and the narrative exposition."

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Just to clear this one up, I know she knows about Ellie's immunity.
It's not a subtle or hidden point. She blatantly discusses with Joel at length about how that is worth it and then
makes the choice to stay.
My point was, the only reason she even gets to that point to even discover that is because they decided they had to get the guns. I didn't misunderstand anything in that scene; so if I typed it in a way that makes it seem like I did, that's all it is. Before she discovers Ellie's secret, they had already sneaked past tons of heavily armed enemies and nearly died, and murdered at least a dozen people, so they were fully putting their lives on the line for these guns.

My only point was that this core component of the groundwork of the first 4 hours of the story is really never explained, and I find that odd. Even in this early stage of the story, I found the characters' motivations to be unrealistic and poorly explained.
It wasn't really emotional for me to hear Tess or Joel decide that a cure is worth risking their lives for, because at that point they already did just for some vague guns. If I remember correctly, they don't even know the guns are out of the picture until they arrive at the mansion and find out that they were all wiped out. So right up until shortly before her death, they were doing it for the guns, and Joel definitely was.
 
O

omonimo

Banned
daviyoung said:
I guess I have, if you think Lara is weak in Tomb Raider you're very much mistaken
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No offence, but you appear really obtuse now. I don't know how to explain you better. Maybe it's better to you read again the whole discussion. I'm not talking of Lara weakness, I'm talking of the game plot, how terrible is realized in TR & I compare to TLoU to prove how tough to reach the same achievement.
 
D

daviyoung

Banned
omonimo said:
Not offence, but you appear really obtuse now. I don't know how to explain you better. Maybe it's better to you read again the whole discussion. I'm not talking of Lara weakness, I'm talking of the game plot, how terrible is realized in TR & I compared to TLoU to prove how different are the results when achieved to the others.
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The plot in Tomb Raider is standard horror movie fare. It has nothing to do with it having, by your own words, "emphasis to the human Lara frailty plot, to ruin completely Lara". Lara is anything by frail and it's not a driver in the plot at all.

Also, I understand English is not your first language so I am doing my best to translate what I can. You have to understand that there is an obvious language barrier in the way you post so if I don't understand something then please re-iterate.
 
O

omonimo

Banned
daviyoung said:
The plot in Tomb Raider is standard horror movie fare.It has nothing to do with it having, by your own words, "emphasis to the human Lara frailty plot, to ruin completely Lara" and I'm saying they didn't. Lara is anything by frail and it's not a driver in the plot. Lara in Tomb Raider is actually not frail at all.[/B]

Also, I understand English is not your first language so I am doing my best to translate what I can. You have to understand that there is an obvious language barrier in the way you post so if I don't understand something then please re-iterate.
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It's a news to me. I though otherwise. Isn't it something who CD has claimed to the launch? They have retired this thing? I remember they appeared pretty proud at the time for that.
 
R

randomkid

Member
Vizzeh said:
Your picking me up wrong. I explained what I meant further in the thread. I didnt say they couldnt. I said it gives more satisfaction them getting Gofty given their target market. As I said earlier thats my opinion.
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If you're judging their target market in relation to GOTY picks, their target market is GAF. IGN and GAF have had identical GOTY choices for the last five years in a row. They also both picked Mario Galaxy in 2007. That's a whole generation of alignment.
 
H

Hindle

Banned
Shinta said:
I wouldn't compare it to a Telltale game either. But I do think the gameplay is actually quite poor.

I was writing up a post to the other thread that just got closed about why I personally think it has poor gameplay, but it got locked. Since it seems kinda on topic here, I'll post it. Maybe someone out there agrees with me.

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I think the gameplay in The Last of Us is pretty terrible, so I can give you my reasons at least.

1) The stealth is more basic than Tenchu Z. You basically just crouch and creep around, and the game puts more focus on sound detection. Despite that, jumping over cover spots, dropping down from elevated areas don't seem to make any additional noise. The stealth takedowns are very basic, and mostly are just a rear choke-hold.

2) The enemies are very poorly designed.

Clickers are horribly designed for the gameplay systems in place. Clickers are blind, and they are difficult to fight in open combat. So your main strategy is to focus on stealth. However, with no sight capabilities, this means that all you have to do is just walk slow and you will never have any trouble from a clicker. The main way to take them down with stealth hits is to use a shiv. However, killing a clicker doesn't reward you with anything as far as I remember, xp or ammo wise. So the rational choice every single time is to simply walk past the clickers and not burn your shivs, because they are limited, and they're used to open locked doors or for your emergency melee counters.

So, every time I saw clickers, instead of feeling anything like fear or heightened tension, I instead knew that it meant that I simply had to walk slowly for a long time. Every time I saw a large area with clickers, I would of course still have to explore everything for items and materials I could scavenge. Only now I had to explore it in slow motion. Every time I got to an area like that, it was so mind numbing that I wanted to turn off the game. I don't enjoy 30 minutes of just walking slowly and not doing anything else. And the entire game's storyline was hanging on the clickers, and how well they worked. These are the key element of their version of the apocalypse; these are their new zombies. I wasn't sold on it at all.

Clickers also bother me because once they're alerted, they fucking sprint at you at an unbelievable speed and instantly one hit kill you. And in addition to that, this game makes sure that you bob and weave when aiming, so you're not likely to ever routinely defend yourself from a clicker attack. And you can't run because that screws up your aiming even more, even though the enemies are exceptionally mobile and fast.

A better example of how to make enemies scary, unique, and make them work well with the gameplay systems you have is Resident Evil 4. By comparing clickers to the many, many enemies in RE4, it becomes a lot easier to see how inferior TLoU really is. Look at the chainsaw guys. Their sound effects were a lot more terrifying to me than the clickers were. Both developers wanted you to know these guys were there to drum up the fear, so RE4 had the constant humming of the chainsaw rumbling behind you getting louder and louder, as well as the guy's high pitched screams and wails. TLoU had ... clicking. Yes, it makes sense for sonar detection, but it's not scary. The chainsaw guys also could one hit kill you, and that was the main reason people were scared of them. But, the chainsaw guys were slower than you, and their aim was not perfect. Even with these limitations on their killing ability, they were still terrifying, and still managed to one shot you many times in the game, but they actually made the gameplay systems work. You could stop and aim and get some shots in because they were slower than you, but at some point they would just barrel right through you regardless. TLoU has enemies just sprint right at you and instant kill you, which doesn't enhance the gameplay, it just leads you to a retry screen. Or look at the Regenerators in RE4. These guys were even slower, and could absolutely be outrun if the player wanted to run away. However, they were perfectly designed to enhance a gameplay system that wanted you to stop and aim carefully. You used your thermal sniper rifle scope to find their weak spots and hit them, or else they were invincible. And despite this, they were still completely terrifying. But they managed to make the gameplay better, and make the stop and aim system work better, instead of creating contradictory designs that just lead to a restart screen. And RE has tons more enemies like this, like the blind wolverine with claws that relies on sound (much like the clickers, but still better, and they have you manipulating sound in the environments during gameplay, hitting weak spots on his back, and he can still one hit kill you but not every time, and his aim isn't perfect because he's fucking blind).

Where RE4 had tons and tons of enemies and bosses that worked flawlessly, TLoU had one enemy to get right, and they totally, completely blew it.

Perhaps the only enemy worse than that is the "newly turned," which just literally sit there and do nothing, waiting to be killed. That's possibly the most pointless enemy of this entire generation.

3) The first 4 hours of the game might as well have been a cutscene, because you basically just followed an NPC down a narrow road and watched cutscenes. I love FFXIII, and TLoU's intro was so scripted and linear that even I felt suffocated.

4) There is very little verticality allowed in the stealth, or the level design. In one of the first missions I was with Tess going to get the guns from the guy who double crossed them. They showed that we were sneaking into a large area and were greatly outnumbered. There were gigantic metal shipping crates stacked all over, with smaller wooden crates next to them making natural stairs. Being a stealth focused game (and a Naughty Dog game) I naturally assumed you could at least do limited platforming to climb a couple boxes and get a better perspective to see the enemy patterns, but you can't at all. Instead of having level design that helps make stealth gameplay organic, they instead had to add x-ray vision for Joel.

5) The partner AI ruins the game's main strength, presentation and immersion. Everyone is aware of this one. You're sneaking around a clicker and Ellie just goes barreling right past them, jumping and talking to you full volume and no one notices. You remember how frustrating I said it was to be forced to walk slowly for 30 minutes? It's even worse when Ellie is able to just run all over and you have to watch.

6) It's a game about two people and the 2nd person is basically non-existent as far as gameplay systems design is concerned. RE4 has you protecting Ashley from damage, sneaking around as Ashley, strategically hiding her in dumpsters instead of making her invisible and invincible. TLoU basically just doesn't even try to make this work.

7) The game's "puzzles" and platforming were very bad. Moving around crates and dumpsters felt like a Dreamcast-era box puzzle, something I thought was officially gone from gaming in 2013, let alone a big budget game like this. Moving planks around was equally cumbersome and simplistic. Moving Ellie on a raft is basically another box puzzle, but with water physics added (barely). People trash the tombs in Tomb Raider, but TLoU makes them look like master class puzzles.

8) The crafting system being real time doesn't really add much to the gameplay in my opinion, and it doesn't make as much of a difference as the earlier trailers made it seem like it would. If some of you guys liked it, cool. I really didn't think it added anything.

9) The game has very, very weak level up abilities that don't add a lot to gameplay, and can probably be skipped if you want. The counter is probably the best one.

10) I didn't like the handling and the feel of the bow. It might be because Tomb Raider came out in the very same year, and they're kind of similar games. But the handling and feel of the bow in TR was just so much better.

11) For a game focusing on story and presentation over gameplay, I thought it was a really weird decision to have such trial and error gameplay that demanded frequent restarts. It took me out of the experience that they tried so hard to prioritize. Just broadly speaking, the gameplay systems don't really further the telling of the story, or the immersion for me. It's a very, very limited trial and error stealth TPS chopped up and grafted onto a story.

And I didn't think the story was strong enough to carry the poor gameplay. The intro was supposed to be the watershed moment, when
his child dies. But I didn't see why this was better than the intro in Splinter Cell Conviction, or the intro in Mass Effect 3, which people criticized heavily. It's the same weak story hook. A little kid dies, and we only care for the sole reason that its a little kid and that is supposed to be shocking. In Mass Effect 3 I remember laughing at how obvious and transparent the attempt to force emotional content was, and it was a very similar intro for TLoU. We know nothing about this girl, and yet her death is the driving force for the entire story? The intro's only real gameplay was walking around in the house, suspecting a break in or something gone wrong. I thought that this was also extremely similar to the intro to Splinter Cell Conviction, with Sam protecting his daughter from a home burglary attempt. At least in that game, they use that as not just a story intro, but a tutorial to set up the Mark and Execute system, while TLoU feels content with not letting the gameplay start for hours.

Then shortly after that,
you have to go "get your guns back" with Tess. Okay, what are the guns for? They never say. Why is it worth it to take on a suicide mission escorting Ellie for "guns" when they have guns already? They never say. Literally the entire story is hanging on their desire to get these guns. Tess dies because she wants these guns. For a game focusing so much on story, I don't think it even really has a great one.

I can probably think of some more, but that's just off the top of my head.

I can definitely admit it's a gorgeous game, and well made in some ways. But I wouldn't ever rate it as GOTY, and when people do, it makes me a little sad because the game doesn't do much to actually further gameplay in any way, and is far behind RE4, which came out in 2005, in terms of actual gameplay and was one of the first highly influential TPS/stealth/horror games on consoles. The gameplay isn't even better than Tomb Raider.
Click to expand...

Excellent post I gotta say. I'll also add how from Pittsburgh onwards we've basically seen everything the game has to offer. No more new monster types are introduced and the game essentially becomes a fight against bandits-Clickers rinse and repeat from then on.
 
H

Hubb

Member
Shinta said:
Just to clear this one up, I know she knows about Ellie's immunity.
It's not a subtle or hidden point. She blatantly discusses with Joel at length about how that is worth it and then makes the choice to stay. My point was, the only reason she even gets to that point to even discover that is because they decided they had to get the guns. I didn't misunderstand anything in that scene; so if I typed it in a way that makes it seem like I did, that's all it is. Before she discovers Ellie's secret, they had already sneaked past tons of heavily armed enemies and nearly died, and murdered at least a dozen people, so they were fully putting their lives on the line for these guns.
[/SPOILER]
Click to expand...

Didn't they find out about Ellie's secret right after the got caught by the 2 soiders and then killed them? That was before all the heavily armed guys stuff, and that is when they almost died.
 
D

daviyoung

Banned
omonimo said:
It's a news to me. I though otherwise. Isn't it something who CD has claimed to the launch? They have retired this thing?
Click to expand...

As I have said, it's obvious through-out the game that Lara is not frail in any sense of the word. Seems like the promotion was mis-guided.
 
G

GeoramA

Member
It's a hell of an accomplishment. Pretty much the runaway GOTY, even with GTA V and BioShock living up to their hype.
 
O

omonimo

Banned
Hindle said:
Excellent post I gotta say. I'll also add how from Pittsburgh onwards we've basically seen everything the game has to offer. No more new monster types are introduced and the game essentially becomes a fight against bandits-Clickers rinse and repeat from then on.
Click to expand...

The only reason because you agree with him, it's just because is a sony exclusive. Should be honest for a second.
 
S

Shinta

Banned
Hubb said:
Didn't they find out about Ellie's secret right after the got caught by the 2 soiders and then killed them? That was before all the heavily armed guys stuff, and that is when they almost died.
Click to expand...

Yes, but they still went onwards to the mansion expecting to hand her off and get guns, and Joel was still entirely opposed to doing anything more. And there are definitely heavily armed guys before that point, and before the mansion (which is the planned destination all along).
 
H

Hubb

Member
Shinta said:
Yes, but they still went onwards to the mansion expecting to hand her off and get guns, and Joel was still entirely opposed to doing anything more.
Click to expand...

As soon as the found out, they had to run for their lives. I guess they could have just left Ellie, but once they left the city I'm pretty sure Joel said it would be impossible to get back in alive. I guess at that point what choice did they have but to go forward?

In response to your edit.

This happened before they left the city and went to the mansion, they killed some cops who were killing fireflies. Anything real heavy came after they found out about Ellie and were still in the city limits.
 
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