John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Why bother responding to him at all?
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The Leftovers S3 |OT| The End Is Near - Premieres Sunday 4/16, 9pm on HBO
- Thread starter bodyofanamerican
- Start date
Why bother responding to him at all?
Buttonbasher
Member
There's a huge swath of people who seem to have accepted it at face value, and won't view it as ambiguous. It's kind of ideal, for the way the shows been operating. Threads are there to pull on for people that want that, but otherwise people have the closure they're looking for.
Had they filmed it, I'm not sure you'd have that.
Based on the fact that people believed that everything Kevin saw in the afterlife was all in his head, I think you'd still have people wondering if everything Nora saw was made up or "in her head". It would've still made for a pretty damn cool episode.
So I was thinking more about Nora, and if there's one thing I know for sure about her it's that she's stubborn as hell. If she didn't go through with it, it makes total sense to me that she would just want to shut down and hide away in shame. Nora has a history of running away. In the first season finale, she was on her way to leave Kevin before she found Lily. In the second season, she took off when Kevin told her about his chats with Patti. When Kevin basically tells her to fuck off and go be with her kids, there was no way she'd consider running back to him, even if she really wanted to, especially if it meant having to admit that she backed out of using the machine. Even in her story, true or not, she runs away from her family without saying a word to them.
I think Nora often struggled with whether she should stay alone, a "ghost" to everyone, or let people in and risk losing everything again, which was probably part of the reason she decided to give Lily back to her mother, as much as it hurt her to do that. Kevin struggled with what he wanted too, which is why he admits that he fucked up when he literally cuts his own fears out of himself. Finally, he had his answer and refused to let her run away again without fighting for her. Then she found her answer too.
I think Nora often struggled with whether she should stay alone, a "ghost" to everyone, or let people in and risk losing everything again, which was probably part of the reason she decided to give Lily back to her mother, as much as it hurt her to do that. Kevin struggled with what he wanted too, which is why he admits that he fucked up when he literally cuts his own fears out of himself. Finally, he had his answer and refused to let her run away again without fighting for her. Then she found her answer too.
I've been rolling this over in head for the past day now and I still don't know what to think of the finale. I guess like the rest of the series, I have kind of mixed feelings about it. I don't know whether I think Nora's story is true, but as an explanation for what happened with the Departure, I'd really like it if it was. The whole other Earth thing is the kind of thing I really enjoy in fiction I guess. I like a good time jump too. Just seeing where characters are at years later is interesting, but it isn't particularly well executed here. And like some others have mentioned, I don't know if I bought into the relationship enough for it to be such a focal point of this final hour, especially from Nora's perspective. On the other hand, they are my favorite characters on the show and the most important, so them being the focus in general here is right. I am sure that Carrie Coon is a tremendous actor though. She's become one of my favorites.
Ultimately, this show had some high highs and some low lows for me. I'm glad I watched it, but I won't really miss it. It was interesting if extremely flawed.
Ultimately, this show had some high highs and some low lows for me. I'm glad I watched it, but I won't really miss it. It was interesting if extremely flawed.
Buttonbasher
Member
Fair point.
I don't know, did she? All we have is what she's telling Kevin, and we're assuming she's lying, here.
So she couldn't... for some unknown reason? That's it? You're okay with that?
What return? Again, we're assuming she's lying, there. We don't even know if she was really "thinking about Kevin, wanting to be with Kevin". Clearly, she did nothing to be with him, quite on the contrary.
(Again, it's not a choice if she couldn't, but it is if she could but didn't want to.)
It... doesn't matter whether or not it was her choice? What the...?
When the characters' motivations don't even matter anymore, what does?
Sorry if there was a misunderstanding, I didn't mean to say you were.
I was just pointing out that her lying about wanting but not being able to be with Kevin because she was stuck in another world etc is fairly different from Kevin's... hallucinations? supernatural experiences? Point is, Kevin wasn't lying. He experienced those things. Nora didn't.
If that was all some bullshit excuse she made up on the spot, I don't know that I would call that illuminating "intense self-reflection", really...
Again: did she? If she lied, we know nothing about what she might have experienced during all those years... save for the fact she was still avoiding Kevin when that segment began, which doesn't exactly hint at some transformation or character growth we were not privy to, quite on the contrary (and neither does that scene where she confronts the nun, for that matter).
Well... I don't know that it would have actually been more interesting, but we could definitely do with less of that "it's ambiguous therefore interesting" bullshit, that's for sure.
I could see that, sure. But then, she changes her mind during the last episode, and instead of her finally swallowing her pride, or finally forgiving Kevin, or something like that, she gets back with him by making up some outrageous lie.
Cue emotional music. The End.
... I mean, really?
After discussing it with my friends, actually Nora's story makes no sense. The few people left on Earth, assuming some must have died like kids and babies, would have made it difficult to get from australia to NY, and then finding that scientist, who would then build a machine it took a team of people to manufacture and build all by himself just to send one person back...
And then it begs the question of why did she yell something right as the water reached her chin, there's literally no other explanation than calling out for them to stop.
So yeah, although the idea of there being a parallel reality where the opposite happened is an awesome idea, her story unfortunately is too farfetched even for The Leftovers.
And then it begs the question of why did she yell something right as the water reached her chin, there's literally no other explanation than calling out for them to stop.
So yeah, although the idea of there being a parallel reality where the opposite happened is an awesome idea, her story unfortunately is too farfetched even for The Leftovers.
The way I read the segment is that, if Nora's lying, she's substituting the story for what really happened to her, but what really happened to her, regardless, affected a change, one that enabled her to move past the grief she carried for her departed family and to live. It was just that, after she was finished with that work, too much time had passed for her to think that Kevin and her could be united. So my read is that regardless of the truth behind her narrative, real or fairy tale, there was a return, of sorts, for Nora. All that she talked about, of realizing that she was a ghost, that she didn't belong wherever her family had been disappeared to, were the real conclusions she drew from whatever she's been doing for the past decade. The work there is real, though the story she tells Kevin might not be. She fixed herself to the point that she desired Kevin again but denied herself that, for whatever reason. That reason, for me, though it could be argued, is that Nora thought she'd been gone too long treating herself for a life with Kevin to be possible. Nora believed this so much that, when Kevin did show up, she rejected him.
I do think that the words Nora has for Kevin immediately following the conclusion of the time machine narrative are true, if only because of the marked shift in Coon's performance. She's relatively straight-faced the whole story -- when she mentions the time after the journey, though, when she starts directly addressing Kevin, she starts to break up. If anything out of that spiel is absolutely true, I'd wager it's those last few lines, "Did I think of you?" up until she repeats after Kevin that "she's here".
Come to think of it, Laurie's been in contact with Nora all this time. It's possible that she helped Nora reach the conclusions she did.
I guess I could maybe buy that... but one would also wonder why said scientist only did that for Nora. Did he just not care?
I like how, when an interviewer pointed that out, Lindelof went "oh, sure, it looks like it doesn't quite make sense, but we talked a lot about that in the writers' room, don't you worry!". Yeah. I'm sure you did, Damon. I'm just as convinced as those other times you said the exact same thing after a fuck-up.
So it actually makes sense because...?
Well, yeah. I mean, who gives a fuck about the rest of the world? And it's not like anybody else would volunteer, right?
They talked about this a lot. "Noras story was put under a microscope."
Also, from the same interview (boy, there's so much BS in there, I don't even know where to begin):
Jeez, you don't think it might possibly have something to do with all the supernatural bullshit you've been adding on top of the departure? Maybe?
blame space
Banned
Reminds me of people who thought Jesse moved his gun at the last second in the season 3 finale of Breaking Bad.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
"it makes for a better story"
- the nun in the last episode
I think that's all the clue we need. Nora told a better (made up) story because the truth (running away in grief) made her too ashamed.
The nun planted the idea of lying to Kevin in her head.
- the nun in the last episode
I think that's all the clue we need. Nora told a better (made up) story because the truth (running away in grief) made her too ashamed.
The nun planted the idea of lying to Kevin in her head.
Squid_Vicious
Member
This got me right in the feels.
She didn't belong in either reality, but it took her going across to realize that. Then Kevin showing up and telling her how he spent his vacation every year looking for her... damn that's some good writing.
Things like that or "I don't lie" are clearly there to make you consider the possibility that she made that story up, sure.
And in stories where there's a second, hidden possible version of events, one would tend to consider that version the correct one ("why hide it if it's BS?"). It's also generally the more interesting / satisfying one (hey, it'd better be, since it required more work from the viewer!).
I really don't think "never mind how outraged she gets when people lie, Nora actually just made the entire thing up, she didn't resolve that thing with her kids, we don't really know what she's been doing for all those years, we just have to accept that she changed her mind about staying away from Kevin for some reason (possibly during the episode, considering she didn't exhibit clear signs of character growth, on the contrary... was it that thing with the goat?), and according to the music, we're supposed to be moved that said lie brought those characters back together in a relationship that's been shown time and again to be dysfunctional, the end" is more interesting or satisfying. It's just weird.
MomoPufflet
Member
Yeah, the "he built me one" part sounded off. She chose to talk about how long it took her to get around on the other side due to the shortage of people/expertise, but getting a large, sophisticated machine built was like snapping her fingers-- zero details. Not that I feel sure either way but that part specifically didn't sit right with me.
Fenderputty
Banned
Pretty much me here. I even remember thinking "well if Kevin dies and come back to life, her story is totally plausible" and never seriously thought she was lying.
This only frstrated me more due to the shitty way in which they closed off Kevin's supernatural arc last week.
Not super happy with the way this show ended, honestly
stenbumling
Unconfirmed Member
Hope you'll join us in the next OT of Lindelofs new show, Erigu.
Kadayi
Banned
Well, that's partly the point. If such a machine existed, you'd expect many of the 2% would take advantage to return to the 98% if they knew about it. does that mean it didn't happen though? Presumably, the scientist must have had ready access to the hardware necessary to do the initial teleport, and the mobile version may have come after. The same would be true on the other side. 98% of the populace might have disappeared, but nothing else did.
Also gotta love the Lindelof hate. There are a bunch of writers on the series.
Yeah, and it seems Lindelof had Laurie live in the end because the other writers had a problem with her suicide... *cough*
mindatlarge
Member
I have yet to watch the series finale, I'm caught up to it, but I'm preparing myself for a tear jerker and sort of dreading doing so. There hasn't been too many shows or movies that have moved me or made me question things like this series has, not looking forward to it ending at all!
I just wish I were here since day one! I feel awful that I slept on this show until it was almost over. I'd have loved to have been knee deep in the S2 discussion.
Thought it was a great finale. I'm shocked they even offered an explanation for where the departures went, lie or not (I didn't even consider the idea that she was lying until I started reading this thread, lol).
The goat crying out while trying to free itself from the fence has to be one of the saddest noises I've ever heard.
The goat crying out while trying to free itself from the fence has to be one of the saddest noises I've ever heard.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Kevin wanted to ignore reality and start fresh with her, she was basically doing the same. The story she told is what she would have wanted, for her family to be OK on the other side and to have moved on and forgotten her. She could be at peace with that, so she establishes that as truth and decides to move forward with Kevin from there. He doesn't (and the audience shouldn't) care if it's the truth or not because the outcome is the same, she's finally accepted her loss and can go forward.
digitalrelic
Banned
Is it weird to anyone else that the person who supposedly hated this show from beginning to end seems to be the one most invested in it?
He's been doing this since 2004 and LOST, if you really want a plot twist. He has devoted countless hours of his existence to critiquing the work of a man he clearly hates. Which, okay, fair enough, far be it for me to tell people how to live their life. But what is so strange to me is that I never see him in other GAF threads for TV shows. I'm not saying he isn't there, perhaps the shows he watches don't overlap with mine, but I've only every seen him in the Lindelof show threads, and he's prolific in them.
I'm just paying attention, man!
I'm not sure what it says about me, or the audience at large (as I assume I'm not the only one), that I so readily believed Nora's story and didn't even consider the idea that she was lying. There's something to unpack there that feels very resonant to the show and especially Nora's character, who is professionally and personally vested in mythbusting these types of stories, that feels like kind of a perfect way to wrap that up.
Yep. And hit me RIGHT in the feels l. Very dusty in the room, right then.
Now I'm wondering what it says about me that I thought she was lying like 5 seconds into her story. lol
This is how I took it:
Birds returning = love returning
Goat trapped on fence = Nora trapped in the bathroom, victim of her own self-imposed isolation, struggling to break free
This is how I took it:
Birds returning = love returning
Goat trapped on fence = Nora trapped in the bathroom, victim of her own self-imposed isolation, struggling to break free
Season 2 was fucking great.
S3 was... Better than S1, but never reached the highs that S2 did. Not addressing Kevin's arc fully is an odd choice, but DL probably backed himself into a corner again and couldn't come up with something to tie everything together.
Same boat. Shit, Kevin even says 'why wouldn't I believe you?' after hearing the whole story. Plus, it's not as if the show didn't give you some information about others who were put into that machine (as in, they were never heard from again) so I'm going to take it at face value. Though to be fair, they were pretty blunt about manipulation and lying (Lori's new profession, for example) which the show argued could be justified because people want a reason to believe, and if it's being given to them it gives them closure. That could have been Kevin, but we'll never know.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
That is actually really fascinating. In a way, it's almost admirable to be so passionate about a singular thing - even if it's devoted to hating said thing. But also, considering the amount of time and energy spent, it's immensely bizarre.
I'm going to bungle this paraphrasing horrendously, so my apologies, but in arguing with the nun about the missing birds, Nora says something to the effect that they are trained to do one thing, which is come home.
S1 ends with Kevin coming home to Nora. S2 ends with Kevin coming home to Nora. S3 ends with Kevin finally finding Nora, them finally being able to love each other completely and move past the departure and their baggage and be together. The doves are gone until Kevin returns, confesses everything, Nora tells her tale, they reconcile and can finally move forward. In effect, Kevin has come home again. And then the doves return to symbolize that. Because Kevin, like the doves, was trained to do one thing: go home. It's how I took it, anyway.
What a brilliant show.
keltickennedy
Member
But it's perfect for this thread....He's Nora. You all should love him!
she said there were no flights. she had to take a long boat ride.
with few people, not hard to find the ones remaining.
that's not the correct usage of begging the question. you mean brings up the question. and no, they could not hear her at that point. Maybe she changed her mind but it happened anyway since they couldn't stop it.
not farfertched. actually multiverses are posited with real science.
Agreed. That's pretty much what I meant but you did a much better job of explaining it haha.
Seems to me it was a good way to put doubt in peoples' heads especially when Kevin showed up with no memory. Pretending for awhile they may be in another timeline.
megatronium
Member
Wow! Perfect! Thanks for this.
digitalrelic
Banned
Who cares what the behind-the-scenes reasoning is? Do you really think this is the first time a highly regarded show has made changes internally before it aired to the public? The greats like Breaking Bad, The Wire, The Sopranos, Better Call Saul, etc.. have all undoubtedly gone through similar changes. I don't know why you're so hung up on this. You were one of the people criticizing Laurie's suicide because it seemed unearned. Frankly you should be pleased with her being alive.
I just find it amusing that it looks like the other writers were frustrated with Lindelof's "grenade", as the article put it. I empathize.
And that scene on the boat is here to stay, thanks to him...
Well... My exact words:
So, yeah, it makes a tiny bit more sense to me that way. Now, the scene merely feels ridiculously manipulative in retrospect, yay!
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
well said.
this one is for the people saying the Kevin and Nora relationship was never a strong part of the series.
In a way this was a core of the series. All this other shit was people being crazy and trying to cope with the unexplainable. lol
Kadayi
Banned
I get that LOST was perhaps a bit of a blowout, but I don't think the situation was helped by the network milking for as many seasons as they could. The notion that Lindelof is wholly responsible has always struck me as a bit of a stretch.
Don Draper's Hat
Member
Did we ever find out the reasoning for, or the point of, electronics not working for Nora?