It was... The 8th grade I think where I learned that something like this would be considered a fallacy. Besides, most of Disney's MCU films are better.
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The Prequels Strike Back - documentary defending the Star Wars prequels
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
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brandonh83
Banned
You countered his post by proclaiming that TFA being good is a stretch. Here's a whole slew of critics that disagree. And even if you don't want to go by that metric, the consensus was largely positive.
I can't think of one, and I like most of those.
crackhead_bob
Member
What will be the prequel trilogy's overall legacy in the next 20 years? Will there be a gradual embracing of them by fans, or will they remain as deliberately forgotten footnotes like Chris Benoit?
I'm curious going forward how this will pan out as more and more films are released. Will they end up being treated diplomatically, like how Bryan Singer was to some of the lesser X-Men films, or could they end up being treated like some of the lesser regarded Star Trek films?
I'm curious going forward how this will pan out as more and more films are released. Will they end up being treated diplomatically, like how Bryan Singer was to some of the lesser X-Men films, or could they end up being treated like some of the lesser regarded Star Trek films?
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
If RT is the metric for good and bad, Attack of the Clones is a good movie and Revenge of the Sith is very good movie, which doesn't really support the narrative about the PT being universally shit with no redeeming moments.
The latter two Captain America films shit on it from a great height. I'd throw in the first Iron Man too. If you want to use RT to judge Star Wars, it follows that the prequel movies are decent then right?
They're not
brandonh83
Banned
Some are now, to my amusement, being more defensive about the prequels in order to bash The Force Awakens. You know that Zelda cycle thing?
The whole point for their creation was to milk Vader's origin story for all its worth.
that, and to create as many things to make toys out of as possible.
MrCunningham
Member
I agree with this statement. Their narratives are jumbled messes.
brandonh83
Banned
A lot more people liked ROTS than the first two, and I personally agree with that. AOTC doesn't exactly have a sterling set of reviews at its disposal. And again, I was responding to his quote about how TFA being good is a "stretch." I'm not seeing how it's a stretch as the consensus was very positive.
To each his own. Anyway whatever one thinks about RT, it compiles hundreds of reviews. The first two prequels are largely mixed, which feels accurate. ROTS is rated higher than those, which feels accurate.
I'm not really going by the percentage, but rather the clear as day amount of good reviews.
More_Badass
Member
As someone with about zero nostalgia for or little stake in Star Wars, that latter opinion has always seemed ridiculously hyperbolic.
brandonh83
Banned
It is, full-throttle.
First two are aggregate positive iirc and the third is generally more positive than that. None of them are accurate to whether or not they're good films.
brandonh83
Banned
Maybe they are. Roger Ebert loved The Phantom Menace and he was a pretty intelligent, well spoken and well informed dude.
crackhead_bob
Member
I always took his praise of TPM as a pass, given how fond he was of the original trilogy. He was more critical of AOTC, but I can't see how TPM was better than AOTC. TPM had the same issues when it came to writing and acting, in my opinion.
brandonh83
Banned
TPM and AOTC are pretty close for me as they have similar issues.
if AOTC gave us anything good, it was way better terrible line reads/writing.
"sand"
"i slaughtered them like animals"
"constant obi wan bitching"
"so love has blinded you"
etc.
Man those guys are going to be disapointed when Snoke turns out to be Ezra Bridger
Peter Ian Staker
Member
There is no way the sequels will end up as bad or worse the prequels in the end.
They already have a set of good characters which the prequels never had.
Its really all down to the story now.
That will never happen.
Adam West Batman is a self contained thing. Even people that don't like it can accept it as a product of its time and move on.
Meanwhile the prequels are currently an integral part of the Star Wars saga. People will always be mad at them for fucking up the origin story.
As Plinkett said they will never go away, they will be around forever.
"Rotten Tomatoes said xxx was great look at these percents"
"Xxx said this movie was great, and he was smart"
Both claims are ridiculous. Rotten Tomatoes is simply a review aggregate, it by no means is a way of discussing how good a movie is. Same for saying smart and well-spoken liked X so X must be good.
Movie reviews are entirely inaccurate as ways to measure how good a movie actually is. Reviews are subjective perspectives at a certain point in time, which also don't include any other factors that might have altered that perspective. Lots of those reviews could easily have been colored by the ongoing zeitgeist or other factors.
I'm not even going to touch people's views being more or less valid because they're well spoken and 'intelligent'.
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If you want to talk about the merits of a movie you talk about the movie.
And the prequels as a whole are plot-hole filled, lazily shot messes with no love for subtlety, internal logic, or proper story arcs.
"Xxx said this movie was great, and he was smart"
Both claims are ridiculous. Rotten Tomatoes is simply a review aggregate, it by no means is a way of discussing how good a movie is. Same for saying smart and well-spoken liked X so X must be good.
Movie reviews are entirely inaccurate as ways to measure how good a movie actually is. Reviews are subjective perspectives at a certain point in time, which also don't include any other factors that might have altered that perspective. Lots of those reviews could easily have been colored by the ongoing zeitgeist or other factors.
I'm not even going to touch people's views being more or less valid because they're well spoken and 'intelligent'.
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If you want to talk about the merits of a movie you talk about the movie.
And the prequels as a whole are plot-hole filled, lazily shot messes with no love for subtlety, internal logic, or proper story arcs.
Coffee Dog
Banned
You can't defend the simplistic, childlike dialogue or lack of thematic cohesion in the prequel trilogy without going into full on "there's no such thing as good and bad movies, what really is criticism"
It really is.
Neeson is great in TPM, the films are reasonably well shot, there's some decent action (it goes on too long and is too choreographed, but it's still decent), and the ideas are great.
Execution of said ideas isn't and the acting is sometimes woeful, but compared to Waecraft they're all masterpieces.
TPM is the best because for all the flaws, it isn't full of fan service like the other two. It's a weird, rambling, borderline experimental Star Wars film with a great Neeson performance.
andythinkpad
Member
*insert Padme and Anakin rolling on the grass gif*
The prequels hate is justified.
The prequels hate is justified.
Liam Neeson's character is horrible because it's literally a straight-faced cardboard plank who's sole role is to tell Obi-Wan how important that his role in future movies is and dies at the end for feels even though he is never developed.
The 3D re-release of Phantom Menace did so badly at theatres that they canned the rest of the series, the prequels are bad films and most people have no fondness for them. They had boring characters, boring plots and completely lacked the Star Wars sense of adventure and humour.
George Lucas used them as testbeds for ILM which results in some horribly dated CGI and two films which are forever capped at 1080p because he shot them before digital was really ready to be used. He spent most of his time sitting in a chair saying "faster and more intense" and let ILM make the movie on their computers, he simply wasn't invested in making a good movie. You compare the blood, sweat and tears that went into the OT and it's easy to see why the prequels turned out the way they did, where was the incentive for George to make a great movie? He's already a billionaire so he just chilled, he knew it didn't matter if people hated it. They were "his" movies unlike the OT which had other directors, opinionated crew members/actors etc.
George Lucas used them as testbeds for ILM which results in some horribly dated CGI and two films which are forever capped at 1080p because he shot them before digital was really ready to be used. He spent most of his time sitting in a chair saying "faster and more intense" and let ILM make the movie on their computers, he simply wasn't invested in making a good movie. You compare the blood, sweat and tears that went into the OT and it's easy to see why the prequels turned out the way they did, where was the incentive for George to make a great movie? He's already a billionaire so he just chilled, he knew it didn't matter if people hated it. They were "his" movies unlike the OT which had other directors, opinionated crew members/actors etc.
I was 18 when i saw Phantom Menace, i saw it in the Cinema and i Enjoyed it, save for the boring trade federation stuff, i saw the other two atoc and ros in the cinema also and i also enjoyed those, but then i am used to watching bad cheap movies, particulary as a horror fan, i have seen some bad movies.
hey i have sat through some Syfy channel stinkers and the prequels arent THAT bad, well to me anyway, if you like them thats fine with me, if you hate them, thats also fine with me, i wouldnt say they were amazing, but they were alright to me.
I dont know if we really need this documentary, it's not like they are suddenly going to change the mind of anyone, no matter what theories they use, but i'll still watch it to see what they say.
Its crazy how we have different factions of fans, are there many other fandoms in pop culture that are so divided?
People who Love it All episode 1-7 and all the EU new and old stuff (books, games,cartoons)
People who love the Original Trilogy and some of the EU and Seven but just not the Prequels
People who love the Orignal Trilogy only and thats it (didnt like P.T , nor 7, nor the EU stuff)
People who like the PT and OT , and the EU but not keen on seven.
People who like the like the OT and Seven and have expressed an interest in Rogue One but dont care about the EU nor PT
Then you get the Fans who are passionate about the old EU versus the New EU, where others dont care, and you just know that theres going to be Fans who like 1-7 but not The Spinoffs Like Rogue One and Han Solo etc.
And various other combinations. For example my girlfriend only likes Episode Seven and there are bound to be others that will only like the Sequel Trilogy and everything going forward.
hey i have sat through some Syfy channel stinkers and the prequels arent THAT bad, well to me anyway, if you like them thats fine with me, if you hate them, thats also fine with me, i wouldnt say they were amazing, but they were alright to me.
I dont know if we really need this documentary, it's not like they are suddenly going to change the mind of anyone, no matter what theories they use, but i'll still watch it to see what they say.
Its crazy how we have different factions of fans, are there many other fandoms in pop culture that are so divided?
People who Love it All episode 1-7 and all the EU new and old stuff (books, games,cartoons)
People who love the Original Trilogy and some of the EU and Seven but just not the Prequels
People who love the Orignal Trilogy only and thats it (didnt like P.T , nor 7, nor the EU stuff)
People who like the PT and OT , and the EU but not keen on seven.
People who like the like the OT and Seven and have expressed an interest in Rogue One but dont care about the EU nor PT
Then you get the Fans who are passionate about the old EU versus the New EU, where others dont care, and you just know that theres going to be Fans who like 1-7 but not The Spinoffs Like Rogue One and Han Solo etc.
And various other combinations. For example my girlfriend only likes Episode Seven and there are bound to be others that will only like the Sequel Trilogy and everything going forward.
I never said the character was good, I said Neeson was. He does a great job working with absolutely nothing.
Peter Ian Staker
Member
I'm happy that they will never be retconned out of existence.
FTFY
Nobody will dare to retcon them ever. It will be seen as being disrespectful towards Lucas.
The only way they may try to redo Vader's origin story is after a reboot(which I would love to see).
If you think someone can be great as a boring one-dimensional monotone character that's sole purpose is to see/express people's potential in future/past movies, sure.
Teren_Kanan
Member
I'm thankful for the prequels, because without them The entirely accurate Plinkett reviews of them would not exist, and those things are amazing.
broncobuster
Banned
Is ring theory the Darth jar jar thing or have several of these batty theories gained traction?
The Hamburglar
Banned
More entertaining than the force awakens
Marty Chinn
Member
The prequels gave us The Clone Wars. Worth it for that alone.
From the trailer and the Ring theory mention it's obvious they know the prequels are straight up bad and they are still trying to find some "deeper meaning" in these movies to make them redeemable and clever.
Even if the Ring Theory is true (which it's obviously not), the films are still awful when it comes to plot structure, acting, direction etc, like who gives a shit if the prequels "rhymes" and do callbacks to the original trilogy in some complex and nonsensical manner? Even the Darth Jar Jar is a much more better theory, that one is at least fun and somewhat exciting.
Even if the Ring Theory is true (which it's obviously not), the films are still awful when it comes to plot structure, acting, direction etc, like who gives a shit if the prequels "rhymes" and do callbacks to the original trilogy in some complex and nonsensical manner? Even the Darth Jar Jar is a much more better theory, that one is at least fun and somewhat exciting.
That's a bit harsh, wouldn't you say?
I think you could possibly cut all three prequels back to back into one decent 2+ hour movie.
I defy you to watch the scene where Obe Wan explains to Padme that he's seen Anakin killing the child trainees, one of the most horrific things he has ever seen, and say "that was some incredible acting".
Clone Wars, Republic Commando, Pod Racer. None of the redeeming qualities of the PT can be found within the movies themselves.
People can say what they want about the Plinkett reviews, but Mike does a good job deconstructing the series and getting to the meat of why the movies just don't work on any kind of story or character level. It's great film analysis, though I could have done without the interludes.
I originally saw the phantom menace in theaters when I was 11, and was apparently the prime demographic for the movie (or one of them at least as evidenced by Jake Lloyd), and I found the movie to be very boring with the exception of the light saber fight at the end. I also had watched the re-release of a new hope in 97, two years prior, and loved the crap out of it, one of my favorite movie going experiences ( which says a lot about eh quality of the original ) .
Either way, while I may think that the prequels are objectively bad movies im not gonna hate on those that like it. Perhaps they saw something I didn't, or they could get past a lot of the problems and enjoy it for what it was. I know i'm guilty of that. I enjoy bad movies like the Hobbit trilogy even though they are objectively poor movies compared the the LoTR trilogy, and even Peter Jackson confirmed as much because of studio issues. I can still get past a lot of the problems, or maybe they just don't bother me as much. So as far as Star Wars is concerned I get it.
I originally saw the phantom menace in theaters when I was 11, and was apparently the prime demographic for the movie (or one of them at least as evidenced by Jake Lloyd), and I found the movie to be very boring with the exception of the light saber fight at the end. I also had watched the re-release of a new hope in 97, two years prior, and loved the crap out of it, one of my favorite movie going experiences ( which says a lot about eh quality of the original ) .
Either way, while I may think that the prequels are objectively bad movies im not gonna hate on those that like it. Perhaps they saw something I didn't, or they could get past a lot of the problems and enjoy it for what it was. I know i'm guilty of that. I enjoy bad movies like the Hobbit trilogy even though they are objectively poor movies compared the the LoTR trilogy, and even Peter Jackson confirmed as much because of studio issues. I can still get past a lot of the problems, or maybe they just don't bother me as much. So as far as Star Wars is concerned I get it.
Monocle
Member
It never fails. There's always people who will stand up for dreck despite obviously better alternatives.
Derivative, yes. Disappointing? That's subjective. But not bad in the sense that its cinematic, dramatic, artistic, and narrative parts are subpar. Not bad in that it fails to achieve its own aims as a transitional film from the OT to the Sequel Trilogy and as an intro to a new generation of characters. Kylo's arc alone makes most of ANH's characters look two-dimensional.
Not this shit again. The TFA backlash is anchored firmly in the realm of delusion. There simply isn't a decent case to be made that it's a bad film.
Derivative, yes. Disappointing? That's subjective. But not bad in the sense that its cinematic, dramatic, artistic, and narrative parts are subpar. Not bad in that it fails to achieve its own aims as a transitional film from the OT to the Sequel Trilogy and as an intro to a new generation of characters. Kylo's arc alone makes most of ANH's characters look two-dimensional.
Valjean Lafitte
Banned
Honest question: how doesn't it? If the Ring Theory is true and George Lucas intended for the series to be cyclical in its themes, how does that not redeem many what many people saw as flaws in the narrative?
What does it fix?
Its characters are still emotionally stunted charmless twats, the dialogue is still fucking boring nonsense, the romance still plays like a the creepy fantasy of someone who doesn't know what human interaction is, Darth Vader's choice at the end of RotJ is still turned into some pre-destined bullshit that makes him out to be Space Jesus, and the gungans still exist.
What is possibly fixed by some fucking fan theory?
The greatest narrative ever in the world couldn't make Anakin and Padme likeable. Are the audience going to root for them because of the thematic symmetry? Anakin is a horrible monster who deserved to burn to death and Padme a complete moron who married him after he admitted to a murder spree. Narrative can't fix those characters, nor can it make interesting the many boring scenes where people stand still and drone on about politics.
Valjean Lafitte
Banned
Not to take away from your other points, but Anakin didn't just go on any killing spree, he went on a killing spree of bloodthirsty savages that were starving, torturing, and raping his mother.
What did the kids do? Were the women raping his mom too? Was everyone in on the raping thing, or was it just one scumbag Tusken Raider who kept her in his hut as a secret?
Don't forget Padme losing the will to live after giving birth to her newborn twins. I'd say that was the most ridiculous thing in the entire trilogy. For some reason Lucas didn't want to make dark side Anakin out to be a bad guy for actually killing his wife, but couldn't come up with anything better.
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