No.
Game Programmer Avg: $84,000
Software Programmer Avg: $80,000
Game Illustrator Avg: $71,000
Illustrator Avg: $62,000
http://penguinrungames.com/images/averages.png
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"The problem with the gaming industry is that developers make too much"
- Thread starter kvothe
- Start date
No.
Game Programmer Avg: $84,000
Software Programmer Avg: $80,000
Game Illustrator Avg: $71,000
Illustrator Avg: $62,000
http://penguinrungames.com/images/averages.png
Pretty much. What a lot of people fail to realize is that, in the US, there is a huge competition among major companies for competent programmers. If their salary seems high to you, it's because these companies are competing with one another for the talent. Studios that want talented, top-tier developers have to be able to put up a competing salary, or else programmers will get snatched up by one of the other major companies who are willing to pay them more.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
What other costs would those be?
Additionally, which of those costs aren't fixed (can be changed by the developer/publisher)? For example, the publisher can decide how many employees and what to pay them, but do they decide the licensing fee for the engine? Do they decide the platform holder's royalties?
I was pointing to the rise of DLC (which is almost universally never a good price when compared to content value of the original package), online passes, microtransactions, and trying to stamp out used games, which seem to indicate that the traditional $60 "full package" isn't working anymore.
The advertising, for a start. The last COD cost $40million to make, but the advertising was $160million.
Also, the pay of the individual programmer at $80,000 isn't a problem. But the decision to employ 1,000 people on an Assassin's Creed game definitely is.
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
Well, what is the pay of the executives that run the publishing companies? Maybe some costs can be cut there.
Marketing, for one. Not that I'm looking for an argument about slashing game budgets, mind you.
As for DLC/microtransactions, why do you think they're a thing now? They make money. It doesn't have a whole lot to do with game studios not making enough (some don't), it's just that these things have proven to be an easy way to squeeze more money out of a game, so why not?
Is this nationwide, or for a particular area? If it's localized to a certain area, then it may be a valid comparison. If it's nationwide, maybe not.
Game companies tend to be in the more expensive parts of the country (with higher salaries), and in or near the cities in those regions. Non-game programmers and illustrators are all over the place. Those who get paid less in the less-expensive markets (cheaper cities, suburbs, etc.) would bring down the average, nationwide.
It's been several years since I was there, but when I lived in San Francisco, game industry dev jobs paid a bit less than other corporate jobs. Maybe that's changed...
100 hours? That has to be a exaggeration or else they would have a Burn-Out after a few weeks.
"Software Programmer" as a search term doesn't encompass all of programming--even programming software. Your Indeed.com listing isn't complete. What are the average salaries for Web Developers, for example? Or UI programmers in gaming vs UI programmers in application software, or mobile or web development?
Not to mention the fact that the listed salaries on Indeed rarely match the actual numbers you get from the company or recruiter in question.
Not to mention the fact that the listed salaries on Indeed rarely match the actual numbers you get from the company or recruiter in question.
diffusionx
Gold Member
And I would argue that those are simply "grow revenue" moves, which people have made since forever. We had expansion packs in the 1980s and 1990s, the technology has advanced to the point of making it universal and easy, that's all.
canedaddy
Member
Technical skills, sure... but there are other types of skill sets involved in teaching and policing that are no less difficult to acquire, and those positions have a hell of a lot more responsibility than a game designer.
Why don't they release less games?
Lower the budgets, less staff, give more time to create the games. Hopefully that leads to less games, but quality games. Which means more people are hopefully Buying the games that come out because they aren't flooded by them like they are now.
I can't be the only one who skips games purely because I have too many.
Lower the budgets, less staff, give more time to create the games. Hopefully that leads to less games, but quality games. Which means more people are hopefully Buying the games that come out because they aren't flooded by them like they are now.
I can't be the only one who skips games purely because I have too many.
do you even know what you are talking about?
Cliffy doesn't drive some $70,000 peasant vehicle.
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
Maybe game devs should move to places in the US where the cost of living is lower. I'm sure Mississippi, West Virginia and Kentucky would love to have them.lol
SublimeO12
Neo Member
The difference between salaries has little to do with skill set, and much more to do with there being a lot more money to be made in software development. Companies shell out more to their employees because they're more profitable.
An artist's salary is going to be calculated differently from a programmer's salary, and the listing for artist positions are going to be labeled something other than "game developer."
Not all artists are developers.
But the remaining point is that the author of the article is not addressing some of the glaring issues with the article, such as the variety of employees a studio has vs. the simplified attribution of developer salary average for all. And also the author's very poor sourcing and research into what a developer is and what a developer is paid, in the game industry and in general.
The average salary was calculated by Game Developer Magazine to encompass all different jobs within the industry.
cpp_is_king
Member
No.
And before you ask: Since you ignore any and every explanation anyone gives to counter your misguided points, it's a waste of time for me to say anything other than no. I'm completely content allowing you to continue on your life being misguided and wrong about, well basically everything.
Per-discipline salaries will vary, therefore the comparison directly to a specific type of non-game-"developer" salary (which will only be programmers and not eg business / exec / legal / leads / etc) will be inaccurate. Not to mention, the chart listing Indeed.com search terms is what I was referring to in the first place, not the Game Developer Magazine survey you must be referring to.
Do you have more details on what is encompasses though? All jobs in the industry means what? It includes secretaries and janitors and programmers and CEOs and marketing managers if they work at any studio, whether a one man Iphone game shop or a 10 thousand person behemoth like EA?
You can't just take it on face value and use it blindly without understanding it and explaining it in your article and your arguments.
That's what I wondered, too. If most of the big game companies are in LA, SF, and Seattle (and out east in NY), of course their average compensation will look high compared to other developers nationwide, many of whom work in much cheaper places.
Just_myles
Member
animlboogy said:
For me personally it's something I try to do on my spare time. I never even considered ever working in that industry. I always believed the pay and hours were horrible, or at least don't reflect the kind of work/life that I want for myself.
Then there's the issue of them saying we cut it in half. If a senior programmer who was making ~80k is now making ~40k, what will an entry level programmer make? Entry programmers are NOT the ones making 80k.
Yea there are a disproportionate number of people on the west coast in entertainment-driven companies compared to business IT. When you need to make more than the average wage in the US just to meet the cost of living, the average salary will rise.
Marty Chinn
Member
Software Engineer in San Jose has an average of $125k. Average programmer at Google makes $137k. Why do you continue to ignore these stats?
Why do you continue to ignore doing a breakdown on how you save 98 million at a 2,000 employee studio when you did the research and have experience in doing the analysis based on your credentials you gave us?
Exactly. I'm an example of that. I make a little less now (working outside the game industry in the Midwest) than I did a decade ago (working for EA near San Francisco), and my standard of living is much, much higher than it ever was out there.
BossLackey
Gold Member
I can't believe someone got paid to write that. Wow.
Everyone I know in game development (with some minor exception) is making less money than they could elsewhere, because they love games. Having that sacrifice of work stability (game companies close constantly), and lower pay insulted by the idiot who wrote this article really rubbed devs wrong, and that's why there was so much shit talk from devs about this article.
It's not surprising that the writer has no idea how game development works, but to assume a voluntary magazine poll (that didn't require responders to prove salary) would be an accurate reflection of salaries and said salaries are too high is mind blowingly stupid.
It's not surprising that the writer has no idea how game development works, but to assume a voluntary magazine poll (that didn't require responders to prove salary) would be an accurate reflection of salaries and said salaries are too high is mind blowingly stupid.
Imagine if you included legal and executive salaries into the mix!
cpp_is_king
Member
Alright here is one last ditch effort to talk some sense into this moron just because I'm annoyed knowing that people like this even exist.
Let's focus our search on specific areas so we can eliminate any disproportionate adjustments to the all-holy "average salary" caused by areas which don't have vastly disproportionate amounts of game developers versus other types of developers.
I'll choose both areas where there is a heavy game development presence, and areas where there is a not-so-heavy game development presence. In addition, since "software programmer" runs the gamut of everything from COBOL programmer, to Excel VBA programmer, to web programmer, to C++ programmer, or device driver programmer, and a million other skills that are useless in game development, I will show salary searches for the "individual skills" that game developers have. Not some blanket bucket like "programmer" vs "game programmer", since that is obviously a completely worthless comparison.
The intent here is to demonstrate that game developers could universally, across the board, leave their jobs as game developers and go work somewhere else for more money.
Note that these are still just aggregate internet results, non-scientific, but since Mr. Arrogance wants to use them, we'll do our best to make the numbers a little more accurate. All of this data was gained from indeed.com/salary since that's where the proven scientifically accurate and meaningful data that this awesome specimen of a journalist insists comes from. So we'll keep it the same for the sake of comparison.
San Francisco (heavy game development presence, heavy general software development presence)
C++ programmer ($123,000)
Network Programmer ($140,000)
Python Programmer ($120,000)
Lua Programmer ($165,000)
Windows Programmer ($110,000)
Graphics Programmer ($125,000)
AI Programmer ($122,000)
Game Programmer ($101,000)
Los Angeles (heavy game development presence, heavy general software development presence)
C++ programmer ($98,000)
Network Programmer ($111,000)
Python Programmer ($95,000)
Lua Programmer ($131,000)
Windows Programmer ($87,000)
Graphics Programmer ($100,000)
AI Programmer ($97,000)
Game Programmer ($81,000)
Kansas (non-existant game development presence, mediocre general software development presence)
C++ programmer ($85,000)
Network Programmer ($97,000)
Python Programmer ($83,000)
Lua Programmer ($114,000)
Windows Programmer ($76,000)
Graphics Programmer ($87,000)
AI Programmer ($85,000)
Game Programmer ($70,000)
Houston (non-existant game development presence, heavy general software development presence)
C++ programmer ($99,000)
Network Programmer ($112,000)
Python Programmer ($96,000)
Lua Programmer ($132,000)
Windows Programmer ($88,000)
Graphics Programmer ($101,000)
AI Programmer ($98,000)
Game Programmer ($82,000)
Raleigh (mediocre game development presence, medium-to-high software development presence)
C++ programmer ($89,000)
Network Programmer ($101,000)
Python Programmer ($87,000)
Lua Programmer ($120,000)
Windows Programmer ($80,000)
Graphics Programmer ($91,000)
AI Programmer ($89,000)
Game Programmer ($74,000)
Now, are we done here? I thought so.
Let's focus our search on specific areas so we can eliminate any disproportionate adjustments to the all-holy "average salary" caused by areas which don't have vastly disproportionate amounts of game developers versus other types of developers.
I'll choose both areas where there is a heavy game development presence, and areas where there is a not-so-heavy game development presence. In addition, since "software programmer" runs the gamut of everything from COBOL programmer, to Excel VBA programmer, to web programmer, to C++ programmer, or device driver programmer, and a million other skills that are useless in game development, I will show salary searches for the "individual skills" that game developers have. Not some blanket bucket like "programmer" vs "game programmer", since that is obviously a completely worthless comparison.
The intent here is to demonstrate that game developers could universally, across the board, leave their jobs as game developers and go work somewhere else for more money.
Note that these are still just aggregate internet results, non-scientific, but since Mr. Arrogance wants to use them, we'll do our best to make the numbers a little more accurate. All of this data was gained from indeed.com/salary since that's where the proven scientifically accurate and meaningful data that this awesome specimen of a journalist insists comes from. So we'll keep it the same for the sake of comparison.
San Francisco (heavy game development presence, heavy general software development presence)
C++ programmer ($123,000)
Network Programmer ($140,000)
Python Programmer ($120,000)
Lua Programmer ($165,000)
Windows Programmer ($110,000)
Graphics Programmer ($125,000)
AI Programmer ($122,000)
Game Programmer ($101,000)
Los Angeles (heavy game development presence, heavy general software development presence)
C++ programmer ($98,000)
Network Programmer ($111,000)
Python Programmer ($95,000)
Lua Programmer ($131,000)
Windows Programmer ($87,000)
Graphics Programmer ($100,000)
AI Programmer ($97,000)
Game Programmer ($81,000)
Kansas (non-existant game development presence, mediocre general software development presence)
C++ programmer ($85,000)
Network Programmer ($97,000)
Python Programmer ($83,000)
Lua Programmer ($114,000)
Windows Programmer ($76,000)
Graphics Programmer ($87,000)
AI Programmer ($85,000)
Game Programmer ($70,000)
Houston (non-existant game development presence, heavy general software development presence)
C++ programmer ($99,000)
Network Programmer ($112,000)
Python Programmer ($96,000)
Lua Programmer ($132,000)
Windows Programmer ($88,000)
Graphics Programmer ($101,000)
AI Programmer ($98,000)
Game Programmer ($82,000)
Raleigh (mediocre game development presence, medium-to-high software development presence)
C++ programmer ($89,000)
Network Programmer ($101,000)
Python Programmer ($87,000)
Lua Programmer ($120,000)
Windows Programmer ($80,000)
Graphics Programmer ($91,000)
AI Programmer ($89,000)
Game Programmer ($74,000)
Now, are we done here? I thought so.
Marty Chinn
Member
Holy shit, I had no idea Lua programmers made so much.
So you use a job seach site to prove your point?
Depending on what you search for u can get completly different averages for the same job, cause some companys may seach for a xy programmer and others are searching for a xy developer. A developer seems to be constantly higher than a programmer. But nonetheless i looked up the salaries of different developers. I only used "developer" in that search. Heres the result:
1 Pascal Developer 116,000
2 bsd Developer 112,000
3 kernel developer 104,000
4 Embedded Linux Developer 104,000
5 firmware developer 104,000
6 eclipse developer 102,000
7 assembler developer 101,000
8 c++ developer 100,000
9 gui developer 99,000
10 qt developer 99,000
11 embedded Developer 99,000
12 Mobile Applications Developer 97,000
13 Java Developer 96,000
14 android Developer 96,000
15 ios Developer 96,000
16 c developer 96,000
17 linux Developer 96,000
18 Delphi Developer 95,000
19 Mainframe developer 95,000
20 unix Developer 95,000
21 windows Developer 95,000
22 swing developer 94,000
23 Mobile Developer 94,000
24 c# developer 93,000
25 python developer 93,000
26 Game Developer 92,000
27 ui developer 92,000
28 sql developer 91,000
29 internet developer 91,000
30 Software Developer 90,000
31 perl developer 90,000
32 applications developer 90,000
33 Cobol developer 89,000
34 web developer 82,000
35 php developer 79,000
Out of all the shit i searched game developer is at rank 26 of 35. Nice job, bro.
Arkage
Banned
Spoken like someone who truly has no understanding of the professional fields of police work or teaching. Blindly guessing at things you apparently know nothing about based on how you "feel" isn't really a good method, methinks.
The point of comparing programmers to teachers and cops is their value to society. In an ideal world, the more important you contribution to society is the more money you should get paid. Teachers and police and incredibly more beneficial to society as a whole than somebody making a videogame. But the world isn't ideal, and money mostly flows into entertainment industries since people would rather exchange money for tangible, immediate benefits.
I'd also say teacher salaries are often misunderstood. Teachers work 10 months a year and with great medical benefits, so if they worked 12 months and got typical medical coverage their salary would probably be more comparable. At least, in rich suburban areas. Teachers start at making $35k in rural areas which is truly horrendous pay.
And back to skill sets, yes, computer programmers have to have a great grasp on all the skills of computer programming. Meanwhile teachers have to have a great grasp on philosophies of teaching, grading, content, curriculum development, never mind psychological or leaning disability issues they must address within a classroom for hundreds of individual students. Police are required to risk their lives daily for the public safety, so there's a tremendous amount of skill in knowing protocol when dealing with any variety of situations they may encounter, whether it's drug related, violence related, theft related, etc. Let alone the investigate branch of police work.
In the end, programmer salaries are so high because the market could support them. Maybe that's not the case any longer. I think this shouldn't even focus on programmers in particular, ANY person involved with the making of videogame, including marketing and management, is contributing to the overall cost of the game, and thus should be able to have their salary value questioned. In the end, when you're an independent company, the only way to cut costs is to cut salaries, people, or time spent in development. Nobody likes to see people laid off, so cutting/capping salaries or smaller games seem like the next steps forward. It'd make more sense to have lower salaries but higher bonuses for sales success.
cpp_is_king
Member
It's dead last when you do region-specific comparisons. See my post a few up. The sample size of "software programmer", which is what this genius used as his basis for comparison, numbers in the millions, whereas the sample size of "game programmer" is a few thousand. To make matters worse, the amount of skills which fall under the blanket of "software programmer" are so numerous and so diverse that it disproportionately skews the results. 90% of the jobs that fall under the "software programer" bucket are completely irrelevant to developing a game.
But the guy claims he took a few statistics courses in college, so he must be an expert right?
ape2man
Member
Just got to this thread. I was finishing up the elevators for my new garage. It's been super complicated because the garage is subterranean and there's a pool with a bunch of water slides and other pneumatic features ABOVE it, so making sure it's engineered for weight and still capacious enough for nine or ten cars was crazy hard.
Anyway, I think the article is BS, I make a normal salary and earn every penny.
Anyway, I think the article is BS, I make a normal salary and earn every penny.
But only if u need a programmer ($128k). If u need a developer u only have to pay $72k. Clearly shows that using this site as a source is a joke.
Arkage
Banned
The average android/iOS developer makes $96K a year? That statistic seems way off considering the amount of failed iOS games in comparison to successful iOS games. Do sites like this adjust for outliers at all, or do they just let the millionaire runaway successes push up the so called average? Or perhaps they just don't bother collecting data from the millions of iOS devs that had failed games.
It's not just gaming data, it's via job listings across all industries looking for iOS devs
Yeah using this as a source is already enough to disqualify him and his article. I don't even know how anyone can get the idea of using such a site for a serious article, but checking it for a few minutes would have shown him that it's completly unreliable. I mean look at the lua difference between developer and programmer i posted ...
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
I want to see Clifford come in here and school this guy. Pretty baldfaced that this guy wrote a blanket article about an entire industry because he doesn't like that Cliffy makes big money.
electricpirate
Member
Slow clap.
This trainwreck has been beautiful.
hey Xander, if no one can seem to understand what the hell you are saying, maybe you should step back and say "Why?"
Let me help you. If your point is to find that superstar developers are overtaxing this industry, don't look at averages and point to the possibility that superstar earners are driving this up, with only anecdotal evidence to support that. Because right now the point you think you are making: "Superstar developers are so expensive they are killing the game industry" and the point you are actually making: "All developers are overpaid and ruining the game industry" are indistinguishable.
Another point, STOP ABUSING THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. Average doesn't automatically mean the "Mean" average. The median is another type of average, just saying average doesn't distinguish them. Average also has a meaning beyond mathmatics, and that meaning often looks more like the idea of a mathematical mode. If you used the correct words you wouldn't come off so uniformed.
Finally make the point you want to make (Superstar developers are driving up costs and the Mean of developer income), you need to present more data. You could start with asking "How many superstar developers are there out there and how much do they drive costs?"
The answer is... not very much. (author supplies the answer in the comments)
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/189893/
This heavily undercuts the point you are trying to make.
Anywho, your total trainwreck meltdown has been fun to watch at least!
BlastProcessing
Member
I, for one, can only enjoy a game that was made in a Dickensian sweatshop. Anything else is simply too decadent for me.
cpp_is_king
Member
Apparently the only people who can't understand him are game developers. He got over 9,000 likes on Facebook.
BlastProcessing
Member
But the article says that a developer's girlfriend was driving the $70,000 car. You do know that women can be gainfully employed, yes? Maybe she payed for some or (gasp) all of her car?
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Nah, don't you know women go out with game devs because they know that's where the money's at?
Xander, not only was your attempt to articulate your argument utterly dreadful and mired in several movings of the proverbial goalposts, but you also display a blatant lack of any semblance of deep knowledge of the industry. You twist the words of your critics to suit your half-assed argument, or outright disregard them. You also throw up any attitudes that so much as remotely register as positive feedback(eg. facebook likes lol) in an attempt to portray your argument as being accepted by the majority, going so far as to claim any dissenters are a minority(seriously, fucking lol).
If it were up to me, I'd have fired you too. Your actions throughout this entire thing don't exactly scream competence or professionalism.