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[Atrus]

I should also point-out that a book I was a technical consultant on--one which highly-spoke to issues with foreign policy relevance, and is regularly cited here in "what are you reading" threads--AFAIK gained more awards and critical-acclaim than the one you're talking about.

Good for you! Now maybe when you become more well versed in the field you can actually write books of your own instead of riding the coattails of another.

 

[APF]

I find it ironic that someone is accusing me of ignoring things that don't accord to my beliefs, when you refuse to acknowledge the major FP fuckups during his term, and/or the "chessboard" maneuvering that has led to or contributed to the real, serious, critical crises we're facing today. It's mindblowing.

scorcho: PM box

Edit: thanks; now what's your contribution to society?

 

[mj1108]

She definitely had a roll as First Lady of Arkansas and the United States but to count that as 35 years of concrete political experience is a bit of a stretch no?

Exactly.

 

[Propagandhim]

APF - PM me the name of the book as well?

 

[Atrus]

I find it ironic that someone is accusing me of ignoring things that don't accord to my beliefs, when you refuse to acknowledge the major FP fuckups during his term, and/or the "chessboard" maneuvering that has led to or contributed to the real, serious, critical crises we're facing today. It's mindblowing.

scorcho: PM box

Did I fail to acknowledge it? Look back because I didn't in fact I believe the first word of the response I gave to you was 'Yes'. Perhaps that demon of yours is acting up. I also said it didn't outweigh many of the historic FP positives nor the many forward-looking predictions which were ignored to drastic consequences.

The only thing you've given to back your assertions up that Brzezinski isn't a leader on foreign policy is your unestablished opinion. That hasn't changed in any of your responses and I'm sorry to say, I don't take prima facie assertions from a nobody over the numerous corroborating sources.

 

[Boogie]

I should also point-out that a book I was a technical consultant on--one which highly-spoke to issues with foreign policy relevance, and is regularly cited here in "what are you reading" threads--AFAIK gained more awards and critical-acclaim than the one you're talking about.

Tell me you're not referring to The World is Flat. ;P

 

[APF]

Tell me you're not referring to The World is Flat. ;P

Atrus: which policy in particular are you talking about?

 

[mj1108]

hillary said it best, 'bill is not running... i (hillary) am'

Could have fooled us.

 

[APF]

Speaking of Boogie, recall that Obama's counter-terror advisor connected Osama to Hussein, famously claiming that if OBL sensed he were going to be attacked, he'd "boogie to Baghdad."


Atrus: I'm sorry, I don't take criticism from nobodies who avoid realizing the profound impact Carter-era FP had in shaping some of the largest crises facing us today, or who suggest that Carter-era FP is somehow immune from scrutiny, and conveys some sort of mystical power upon its adherents.

 

[SexConker]

Woe be to all men if Hilary gets elected:

Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.

Yeah, all those soldiers have it so easy.

 

[kame-sennin]

God, Edwards come off as a douchy fuck when he says he'll stay on even after losing so many times now. Especially in SC.

It would really help Obama if he drops out. What a greedy little fucker he is, clearly putting his own interest than the public's.

Mr. Edwards, I liked you, but please drop out now!

Democracy does not work this way.

Since the HDF are so interested in why we "obamapologists" are voting Obama, I'll list out MY reasons so we don't have to go through the same HDF "fairy tale" bullshit in every political thread: 1) Hillary's belligirent foreign policy 2) Her position on censorship 3) Obama's health care plan 4) Hillary's catering to lobbyists 5) Hillary is divisive, despicable, and untrustworthy 6) fat ankles. So there are differences between the two no matter how much you claim there aren't.

In all fairness, I wouldn't vote for either of them, but I find the battle between the two clans amusing and ironic.

 

[scorcho]

Speaking of Boogie, recall that Obama's counter-terror advisor connected Osama to Hussein, famously claiming that if OBL sensed he were going to be attacked, he'd "boogie to Baghdad."

no need to remind us; the anger is still there.

 

[kame-sennin]

Woe be to all men if Hilary gets elected:

Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.

Yeah, all those soldiers have it so easy.

As much as I dislike Hillary Clinton, I would enjoy seeing her elected just because it would infuriate misogynists like you.

 

[Atrus]

Atrus: which policy in particular are you talking about?

You were quick to harp on his negatives, you should already know about helping opening US relations with China, Camp David accords, Helsinki Accords, SALT, facilitating the emancipation of Eastern Europe from the USSR etc.

It was utterly incorrect dispute his place as an expert on foreign policy, which you were quick to do because you have an Obama fetish.

 

[ToyMachine228]

I just got an email citing an inside source that Ted Kennedy will endorse Obama tomorrow...Would be pretty big. Who knows if it's true.

 

[Zeed]

As much as I dislike Hillary Clinton, I would enjoy seeing her elected just because it would infuriate misogynists like you.

What about his point is not valid? Attacking the messenger is not the same thing as attacking the message, and it makes you look petty and childish.

 

[Atrus]

I'm sorry, I don't take criticism from nobodies who avoid realizing the profound impact Carter-era FP had in shaping some of the largest crises facing us today, or who suggest that Carter-era FP is somehow immune from scrutiny, and conveys some sort of mystical power upon its adherents.

Innovative. Just parrot the same words others cast at you back at them eh?

All you've done is parrot the 'largest crises facing us today' as if nobody is acknowledging it. Though actually that would be a prospect of the Gulf War which exacerbated the post-war situation of the Soviet-Afghanistan conflict which mobilized Osama bin Laden to focus on the US.

The Gulf War that Brzezinski was against because it upset a Cold War chess game he set up that had yet to diffuse.

But we're off track here, the central point was your insistence that Brzezinski is not the recognized leading expert on foreign politics because YOU think so. I suspect that's all you have, while Brzezinski has acknowledgment from just about everywhere else.

 

[APF]

in post 915: Actually, you said he was "an expert above anyone else," a comment I took issue with but said even more important than my taking issue with that was his role in being a prime mover behind critical FP issues we're dealing with the consequences of today (including some of those "positives"), and you freaked-out because you have a Brzezinski fetish and I questioned your hero.

edit for more recent post: oh for God's sake are we still trying to play chess with the world?


edit for below post: it's "backseat modding" to ask someone to stop with the ad-hominems?

 

[Green Shinobi]

If pointing-out valid failings in Obama's candidacy is "negative," that speaks more to him as a candidate than me as an analyst. And again, cool it with the ad-hominem attacks; this is... oh, the 1,000th time I've had to say this to you.

Backseat modding is way more annoying to have to read through while browsing a thread.

 

[Guileless]

Sen. Kennedy would be mildly surprising, but the biggie like someone else said would be a Vice President Gore endorsement for Sen. Obama on the eve of Super Tuesday. Now that would be an entertaining speech and resulting shitstorm.

 

[Souldriver]

What is the big deal with a Hillary (or a democrat in general, I have no clue) campaigning in Florida? Why is that a bad thing?

Honest Question.

 

[kame-sennin]

What about his point is not valid? Attacking the messenger is not the same thing as attacking the message, and it makes you look petty and childish.

What?! He writes "Woe to all men if Hillary (theBitch) is elected", and I'm being childish? Nothing in his post is valid. All his quote shows is that Hillary is trying to court the female vote. It's meaningless pandering. If he had simply pointed that out, I'd be agreeing with him. But using that as an example of how men will be [sarcasm]brought under the reigns of this oppressive c***[/sarcasm] is pathetic sexist fear mongering.

 

[sprsk]

What is the big deal with a Hillary (or a democrat in general, I have no clue) campaigning in Florida? Why is that a bad thing?

Honest Question.

There was apparently an agreement that the democratic candidates would not campaign in Florida.

 

[Atrus]

in post 915: Actually, you said he was "an expert above anyone else," a comment I took issue with but said even more important than my taking issue with that was his role in being a prime mover behind critical FP issues we're dealing with the consequences of today (including some of those "positives"), and you freaked-out because you have a Brzezinski fetish and I questioned your hero.

edit for more recent post: oh for God's sake are we still trying to play chess with the world?

There is probably nobody still alive that has had more experience, more historic involvement, or as large a world view that could be a better marker for foreign policy experience. His biography is pretty much a history of US Foreign policy from Kennedy to whenever he dies, and it can't get more comprehensive than that.

 

[APF]

What about this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kissenger

Or this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._McNamara

 

[Souldriver]

There was apparently an agreement that the democratic candidates would not campaign in Florida.

I see.

 

[APF]

Lets also not forget the brilliant, multiple-Administration-spanning careers of Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney while we're at it, since we're not including any judgement re: their positives and negatives.

 

[Amir0x]

I see.

this is what happened

Florida moves its primary up, but rules state only a handful can have a primary earlier than Feb 5.

Therefore, any Democratic winner of Florida is ineligible for delegates.

But, Hillary is suddenly trying to make Florida seem important, so that she can be seen as the candidate with the "momentum" going into Super Tuesday. If she isn't checked, it may very well work... this process is confusing enough for voters as it is.

 

[DEO3]

Clinton to Campaign in Florida

Surprise!

I don't think this will do her any good. For one thing, playing up your victory in a state where all your opponents were banned from campaigning is pretty low, and with the way the media has been eating the Clinton campaign alive this past week for all the other shit the Clinton campaign has been up to, I don't expect they'll give them a free pass. In fact I'd expect the media will report her actions as 'Hillary doing more underhanded and shady shit'. There's no way the media is going to give them the narrative they're looking for. And that's if anyone even bothers to report it, because the Republican primary is the same day, a race in which McCain and Romney are literally tied with one another in polls. The winner of the Republican race is all that's really going to be reported, similar to Michigan's primaries.

 

[Souldriver]

this is what happened

Florida moves its primary up, but rules state only a handful can have a primary earlier than Feb 5.

Therefore, any Democratic winner of Florida is ineligible for delegates.

But, Hillary is suddenly trying to make Florida seem important, so that she can be seen as the candidate with the "momentum" going into Super Tuesday. If she isn't checked, it may very well work... this process is confusing enough for voters as it is.

And when is the Florida primary? If it's between now and 5 februari, how on earth can she campaign there long enough to make it matter in the votes? 0_o

 

[Amir0x]

And when is the Florida primary? If it's between now and 5 februari, how on earth can she campaign there long enough to make it matter in the votes? 0_o

the thing is, since OTHER Democrats are mostly trying to follow the rules (Obama had a television ad that ran Nationally, which included Florida, but claimed that he could not separate Florida out of the advertisement's running), then she has to do relatively little to make it seem big. She just has to win. Even without delegates, this can be especially an issue going into the Democratic National Convention.

 

[Guileless]

I haven't read through all of the political threads, but has this 527 been brought up among GAF'S legions of anti-Hillaryites?

Citizens United Not Timid

 

[typhonsentra]

It's this Tuesday.

 

[Cheebs]

And when is the Florida primary? If it's between now and 5 februari, how on earth can she campaign there long enough to make it matter in the votes? 0_o

She has a HUUUUUGE lead there, she doesnt have to do really anything to win votes.

Obama never was going to win florida, delegates or no delegates. She is doing this to create media momentum to blunt Obama's SC win because FL has always been a guaranteed clinton stronghold.

 

[Atrus]

What about this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kissenger

Or this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._McNamara

You could certainly make a case for them but none sticks out as being better for the title than Brzezinski. McNamara (edit: and Rumsfeld/Cheney) didn't have an equally sustained career while Kissenger was Kissenger.

He didn't make advisements on foreign policy rather than make the decisions for the most part. At the most he was Brzezinski's counterpart among Republicans, so it would be and even-handed difference.

 

[kame-sennin]

Obama never was going to win florida, delegates or no delegates. She is doing this to create media momentum to blunt Obama's SC win because FL has always been a guaranteed clinton stronghold.

Why do Florida voters like her so much?

 

[Green Shinobi]

Why do Florida voters like her so much?

The Gulf Breeze kills brain cells.

 

[scorcho]

the 'media momentum' is meaningless if the media fails to follow along. most of the analysts/pundits/talking heads on CNN last night were quick to mention that Florida would be an empty victory for the Clintons since no other Democratic candidate was campaigning there and that the delegates were pulled.

 

[Y2Kev]

the 'media momentum' is meaningless if the media fails to follow along. most of the analysts/pundits/talking heads on CNN last night were quick to mention that Florida would be an empty victory for the Clintons since no other Democratic candidate was campaigning there and that the delegates were pulled.

Yeah, I would agree, but they initially did the same thing for Michigan. I'm more interested to see if they can restrain themselves from a JUICY NARRATIVE for one cycle.

 

[Zeed]

What?! He writes "Woe to all men if Hillary (theBitch) is elected", and I'm being childish? Nothing in his post is valid. All his quote shows is that Hillary is trying to court the female vote. It's meaningless pandering. If he had simply pointed that out, I'd be agreeing with him. But using that as an example of how men will be [sarcasm]brought under the reigns of this oppressive c***[/sarcasm] is pathetic sexist fear mongering.

The quote was stupid at best and downright offensive at worst. You seem willing to give it a free pass as "meaningless pandering", but then in the same breath accused the poster who quoted it of being the sexist. If you weren't being flippant, and actually were serious, then you come off as a petty hypocrite.

 

[tnw]

Why do Florida voters like her so much?

lots of retirees from new york with fond memories of the 90's.

 

[APF]

Atrus: tell me, which candidate goes on and on about needing a change from the failed policies that got us to where we are today? And tell me, how does that jive with his being mentored by a very-old-hand foreign policy advisor whose failed policies helped get us to where we are today?

 

[scorcho]

while i'm not fond of these death-by-association attacks, Brzezinski's legacy is as mixed as every other influential/powerful Cold War-era realist.

 

[Particle Physicist]

The Gulf Breeze kills brain cells.

large hispanic community is one factor.

 

[Cheebs]

large hispanic community is one factor.

the 60+ block is also a hillary "base" in the dem party and there are a hell of a lot of them voting in FL.

 

[Atrus]

Atrus: tell me, which candidate goes on and on about needing a change from the failed policies that got us to where we are today? And tell me, how does that jive with his being mentored by a very-old-hand foreign policy advisor whose failed policies helped get us to where we are today?

That Brzezinski has a great track-record of predicting the outcomes of situations and that Obama uses him in the capacity as one of his advisers and not a Kissinger who dictates policies to presidential yes men. They have had disagreements on issues, so don't conflate having an experienced adviser with an inability to think for oneself.

Beware of Putin, don't get into the gulf war, don't go into Iraq, stop waiting around to stop the genocide of ethnic Albanians, don't enter Iran. Just some of the good ideas he's proposed before the consequences took place.

Brzezinski may be guilty of American interventionist policies using other countries and people like pawns, but he wasn't the one that turned Osama bin Laden's eyes and thereby the Islamic Jihad onto the US.

 

[Kitschkraft]

To people questioning why some of us would vote for Obama and not Hillary :

Listen, I simply will not support an American aristocracy any longer. Her fucking husband was a president before, what more really needs to be said?

I think that the fact that we have had a father/son combo is ridiculous enough, now husband and wife? Is this North Korea? Because when this kind of crap happens in other parts of the world, we are sooooo quick to bring up "dictatorship" and the like (And when families rule, usually, this is correct).

Billaries recent race-baiting is just icing on the cake.

 

[Cheebs]

I think that the fact that we have had a father/son combo is ridiculous enough, now husband and wife? Is this North Korea? Because when this kind of crap happens in other parts of the world, we are sooooo quick to bring up "dictatorship" and the like (Which they are).

1. We have had two father son combos. We have also had a combo of cousins. And nearly had a brother combo till Bobby Kennedy was killed during campaigning. America survived all of that pretty well.
2. What the fuck does North Korea have to do with who the american people VOTE for? North Korea has had a presidents wife run for office? If not then there is no way I can see the comparison.
3. A dictatorship is a system where the American people choose their nominees by voting and then choose which of the nominees should be president by VOTING? I thought GAF's problem was the population is stupid for voting Hillary, not that hillary is forcing them to vote for her by force.

I didn't know someones family made them unable to run for office, isnt that discrimination?

 

[APF]

No, he just helped their arming and training, helped give them the justification to go against "empires" who use other countries as pawns in order to shore-up their global dominance, and argued in favor of all the policies that caused them to hate us. But hey, if we supported Saddam at least we'd have a modern, Western-friendly and unstable dictator on our "side," which totally wouldn't have done anything to promote terrorism and regional instability. Of course, we haven't seen the consequences of that hypothetical, and therefore can't argue it would have lead to a better situation.

 

[Piper Az]

I don't support Billary because there will be two people pulling the President's job (regardless of what they may say), and it's completely against what the Founding Fathers argued against at the end. Even now, GWB is basically running to country with Chaney, and what a mess it has been!

"Two for the price of one" = Really bad idea.