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They're on Obamacare, they voted for Trump, and they're already disappointed - but...
- Thread starter E-Cat
- Start date
EdibleKnife
Member
It's this simple. With Clinton, I wouldn't have to worry about my healthcare, I'd still have to worry about my existence as a black man and a man of a minority sexual orientation but I'd at least be confident in the idea that someone was willing to make a sincere effort, I wouldn't have to worry about the stability of the lives of people from minority religions or ethnicities, I wouldn't have to worry about the state of women's sexual healthcare and abortion, I wouldn't have to worry about climate change or science in general being taken seriously on a national level. As long as republicans committed to being anti-women, anti-minority, anti-science, and xenophobic, I will literally never vote for them. Black people have said this for a long time: We've been disappointed by democratic presidents. No president has 100% reflected qualities that we would admire and appreciate. But we vote that way because to do otherwise would be destroying ourselves rather than at least taking a chance with a party willing to listen and take us seriously at the very least.
Alcotholic
Banned
Repubs gonna Repub.
They think they are bound to their political party and have to live by it.
They think they are bound to their political party and have to live by it.
I try to ask myself this every now and then...I'd like to think I wouldn't dismiss a Republican candidate simply for being Republican. However, the type of Republican I would vote for (somewhat moderate, fiscally responsible, more to the left socially) I don't think would ever make it to a general election.
How so? I'm not trying to suggest a complete role reversal, just a single instance of major mismanagement on (hypothetical) Clinton's part.
Dude Abides
Banned
This isn't directed at you, OP, but "Republicans are still Republican" is worthless journalism.
This seems fair enough to me. I'd probably put myself in a similar boat.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
Damn, well it's still a good quote, and absolutely applicable here.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
This. It's annoying now. These people will never change their minds even on their deathbeds so can we turn the attention away from them and into cities or countries where people are actually out there trying to make a change? I don't know why they think this is some hot take..
E-Cat
Member
Not an apples to apples comparison -- most would have probably been disappointed that she was not liberal ENOUGH. Voting Republican would've been even worse.
hammysaurusrex
Member
No, because I'm an adult who recognizes there are numerous competing special interests for politicians and there is no scenario where I get 100% of what is best for my particular interests. A certain level of disappointment is compatible with supporting an overall political agenda.
This is not comparable to what Trump is doing, which is actively working to pass legislation that will potentially kill his constituents. That's not something I can categorize as mere "disappointment"
Shadow Puppetry
Member
Wouldn't be the first time I've heard and read Trump supporters say that.
Fair enough, I'm just using the phrasing of the article. It sounds like the voters interviewed here are only disappointed, rather than devastated, over this loss. You can argue about whether or not they should be more upset about this, and I'd agree with you, but the fact is they are moderately disappointed in whom they voted for in much the same way you and I would likely be moderately disappointed in Clinton.
Depends, would it be Republicans who are floating sensible policy regarding pertinent national issues, or Republicans who who are still about trampling queer folk, people of color, the environment, the poor, science, etc, etc?
Because on paper I'm not opposed to strong national defense, an increased focus on local government, sensible spending, and other issues that are not inherently morally abhorrent. It's not until you get to wanting to build gilded ivory towers that belch clouds of sulfuric acid over low income housing projects that I start to take offense.
I hope they lose their healthcare.
It's the only way to put a clear consequence to voting someone in like trump. You have to feel it. Based on their statements now they still aren't really feeling it. They won't until that day occurs when they attempt to use healthcare, and can't, and they suffer for it
It's the only way to put a clear consequence to voting someone in like trump. You have to feel it. Based on their statements now they still aren't really feeling it. They won't until that day occurs when they attempt to use healthcare, and can't, and they suffer for it
what's major mismanagement? did they not get the number of votes to get their healthcare plan passed because it was too liberal? or did she order a bomb strike that killed 2000 civilians in the middle east?
E-Cat
Member
And you're trying to equate this to the Trump voters' being disappointed in the GOP healthcare bill... how? Even they aren't stupid enough to think it was the Democrats who took away the coverage for pre-existing conditions or reduced medicaid expansion.
The truth is, the Republicans are just all-around shittier on all policies of interest. No intellectually dishonest reframing necessary. Not all things are created equal.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Political parties are basically us vs. them so it doesn't matter whether the "us" is actively harming them.
There is literally nothing you could say to convince these people to vote for Democrats.
It's simple cognitive dissonance.
There is literally nothing you could say to convince these people to vote for Democrats.
It's simple cognitive dissonance.
hammysaurusrex
Member
I mean, sure. In a hypothetical world where Hillary says "You know what, we need to ban food banks from contributing to families with children - they need to learn a lesson in complacency while they're young" and a Republican stood up and said that was immoral - then yes, I would strongly consider supporting that Republican.
But that's so far removed from reality I'm not sure what the utility of the exercise would be?
They won't care though. They'll come up with an excuse like they always do.
"He said healthcare and I believe him. At least no healthcare is better than what Obama was making me pay."
I'd love for them to lose healthcare if it's the only thing that will teach them, but it won't and will only kill millions they aren't considering.
That was the problem with the election. They're not just voting to hurt themselves. It hurts everyone else as well.
I can assure you there are plenty of Republicans out there who blame Democrats for their lack of healthcare coverage.
As a Kentuckian it always saddens me on how many of my fellow statesman are ignorant to how healthcare works. You can't go anywhere in this state without hearing someone saying how Obamacare is so horrible in their life and that Obama's polices are the antichrist's work. Hell, even the doctor's complain about it every time I go see them, (I see multiple doctors) and it doesn't help patients feel better when doctors are spouting off about it. Yeah, it isn't perfect, but it's a much better system than what we had before and what the republicans want to do now.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Keep telling me how the election wasn't about racism
E-Cat
Member
Yeah, cause they're stupid; not because it's objectively true. You think you're being hyper-objective, but what you're really doing is muddying the waters with this "both sides are equal" bullshit.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
I'm starting to think more and more that stupidity in general is a means to cull the Human population. People do stupid things in the name of, say, love, acceptance, belief and pride. Stupid things that could very well end with their own downfall and removal from this world. At first I thought maybe everybody CAN be saved, but the more and more I hear these people speak, the more I'm lead to believe that some people are beyond saving, and your energy and time is better used on those who show a glimmer of hope. Sometimes, with some people, you just gotta let nature do take its course.
It's anything that would disappoint you proportionately to the disappointment these voters feel -- which, given the language of the article, seems to be significant, but not so profound that you couldn't feel a similar sense of disappointment in Clinton.
I guess my point is that even though a lot of these hypotheticals are far removed from reality, what doesn't seem inconceivable is that you would feel disappointment commensurate to the disappointment these voters feel regarding Trump (which seems, based on the language of the article, to be significant but not overwhelmingly or singularly profound).
Both sides are absolutely not equal in terms of policy or agenda (or, for me or you, the moral rightness of these agenda), but both voter bases are equal in the restricted sense that they each frame victories/losses in terms compatible with their own party. Your extreme distaste at being compared to Republicans in even this remote way is a reflection of this extreme partisanship. This article is not new or profound; both sides have been doing it for as long as modern parties have existed in America.
KarneeKarnay
Member
It's not a surprise that the majority of Republicans are from poorer background and areas.
This is the classic line of...
..really hits it. It doesn't matter that they will be hurt. The rich guy is looking out for them and wants them to succeed.
While the poor who vote democrat, know they aren't temporarily embarrassed, but that life is tough and there are people who want it to stay that way. That sometimes moving up isn't an option.
This is the classic line of...
..really hits it. It doesn't matter that they will be hurt. The rich guy is looking out for them and wants them to succeed.
While the poor who vote democrat, know they aren't temporarily embarrassed, but that life is tough and there are people who want it to stay that way. That sometimes moving up isn't an option.
CopperPuppy
Member
Well, at least they know the stakes. Time to suck it up and lay down in the bed you made, I suppose. Actions have consequences. Party of personal responsibility and all that.
Take one part dumbfuck, a dash of "I've never left my town", a sprinkling of complete ignorance of anything outside of state lines let alone the wide world, two sprigs of nimby, a big hunk of "I'm only poor because of other people and the government", and a big ol dollop of bigotry and you've got yourself prime GOP voter! These people get no fucking sympathy from me. You voted against your own self interests because you wanted anyone but a liberal and now you are going to literally die because of it, at the hands of the very same rich pieces if shit you elected.
FalsettoVibe
Member
People are so stupid.
Beer Monkey
Member
White trash was a mistake.
Sadly they have to be hurt directly for them to understand the pain this is causing others. If they still say it's better than obama after getting severe health problems due to lack of coverage, then it's their family and friends that will have a lesson learned instead
E-Cat
Member
No, that's precisely what I'm calling you out for. You approach this issue as some kind of academic exercise, theorizing that if a Democratic voter's expectations failed to align with reality and the candidate in spite of their campaign trail rhetoric somehow decided to out-conservative the conservatives, they would then, due to some kind of cognitive bias that kicks in as a sort of protective measure, rationalize their vote in a fashion similar to what we've seen with these Republican voters.
What your hypothetical fails to account for is the absurdity of the kind of situation where, after a rational analysis, they concluded that some Republican represented their interests better than the Democrat, but still found a way to blame the GOP for their own candidate's failings. And that, I find impossible to imagine. Hence "the two sides are not equal".
Well, it is an academic exercise -- there's quite recent academic literature speaking precisely to what I'm talking about. Unfortunately, a lot of it isn't available online for free, but a good starting point on the topic is Why Washington Won't Work by Marc Hetherington, which I highly recommend. Or, look into Zaller's RAS model.
As a brief example, though, take perception of the economy: In virtually every pair of surveys conducted immediately before and after a presidential election, Democrats' assessment of the present state of the economy increases by 10-20 points if a Democrat is elected, and opposite if a Republican is. Those same numbers apply to Republicans, despite the fact that during the span of time between the two surveys (often literally a day) the economy objectively has not changed. Voters on both sides, generally speaking, perceptually frame issues in ways that are sympathetic to their own sides. Admitting that does not morally equalize Republicans and Democrats, and you don't have to be any less sure of your moral convictions to acknowledge that. I find the presumption that liberals are somehow rendered immune to these cognitive biases through their intellectual superiority rather amusing.
minor effort
Banned
Has any other president's voters been polled and interviewed after inauguration this often by as many different outlets?
I sure don't remember the constant flood of "What Obama/Bush/etc Voters Are Saying" every week or "Obama/Bush/etc Voters Sticking By Their President" starting almost immediately after inauguration.
I sure don't remember the constant flood of "What Obama/Bush/etc Voters Are Saying" every week or "Obama/Bush/etc Voters Sticking By Their President" starting almost immediately after inauguration.
If you ever wonder why humanity is advancing at a snail's pace, this is why. Most people don't observe reality and then change their view accordingly once they realize they are wrong (if they ever do). They also prefer lying to themselves over admitting mistakes. This also explains why religion is so persistent.
