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[LordRaptor]

Given hardware sales for pcs. Yes. MS is trying to stay relevant in a world where Windows is increasingly irrelevant.

Yet they're choosing to do so not by offering a platform of differentiation, nor by focussing on the demographics that still are buying Windows desktop PCs.

They're instead trying to rebrand and refocus on people who don't need PCs, because a SmartTV or a phone is a wholly adequate replacement, while burning through what tiny shreds of goodwill their actual core userbase has left.

 

[KojiKnight]

I know it's not exactly the same but isn't it like the music industry where you had vinyl to cassette to CD to streaming? Technology moves on and platforms and hardware are left behind? I don't mean for that to sound as brutal as it might be,

We will all be streaming games from our toaster in 50 years time

It's only inevitable if the consumers choose it to be. In the end, these companies still have to deliver a product that consumers want to buy.

 

[StereoVsn]

What is the functional difference between an App and a standard application? It feels like people already working with definitions on how they differ.

Ive always just considered an App something that comes from mobile/tablet store (perhaps packaged into a single executable?), anything after seems a grey area...

ps3ud0 8)

As far as we are talking MS and Win10, think UWP vs Win32.

 

[collige]

Even worse if MS completely pulls Win32 support in say 5 years from Win10 Home, corporate users won't care since it's all Pro/Ent/Edu editions.



I think for MS OS the control will go away, maybe leaving some options on Server/Ent end. So it's going to have to be Linux (since Apple is even worse) or much more expensive OS versions from MS (you can't even get Ent without MS EA).

People keep saying the bolded without giving any reason for it. macOS is nothing like iOS in terms of user permissions. The Mac App store does require apps to be sandboxed, but no one really gives a shit about the App Store (Apple included). Apple hasn't really pushed any user restrictions nearly as hard as MS has.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

People keep saying the bolded without giving any reason for it. macOS is nothing like iOS in terms of user permissions. The Mac App store does require apps to be sandboxed, but no one really gives a shit about the App Store (Apple included). Apple hasn't really pushed any user restrictions nearly as hard as MS has.

I thought Apple were restrictive and it was Google Play that was the Old Wild West.

 

[LordRaptor]

I thought Apple were restrictive and it was Google Play that was the Old Wild West.

Apple seem to understand the difference between consumer electronics and home computers.
Macs are not iPhones and iPhones are not Macs.

 

[stan423321]

What is the functional difference between an App and a standard application? It feels like people already working with definitions on how they differ.

Ive always just considered an App something that comes from mobile/tablet store (perhaps packaged into a single executable?), anything after seems a grey area...

ps3ud0 8)

While it's nothing but a vocabulary madness, the philosophical difference that seems to have clarified out of the usage is that apps are supposed to be frozen in functionality to user barring badgering the developer. No "I configured my Facebook client so it would explode White House if you unfriend me" possibilities. No "I made the screensaver that was supposed to visualize excerpts from NeoGAF posts show recent tweets with #BLT4ever instead" ones. No "I quietly replaced the image files in weird Finnish mail client so that my colorblind friend distiguishes between icons better" either.

While you can say that this is what many Win32 programs do by default anyway (as compared to *nix tools that tend to depend on one another and be very flexible in bodging them together), it's not an inherent part of platform design. In fact a lot of Windows APIs are all about one program interacting with another as efficiently as possible (though through official protocols, usually). While DLL replacing is a whole another Pandora's box to discuss (it's basically modifying the system/exe without modifying the system/exe), sandboxing seems to be also about eliminating these official communication channels, which is, for lack of better word at the moment, sad.

 

[Massa]

People keep saying the bolded without giving any reason for it. macOS is nothing like iOS in terms of user permissions. The Mac App store does require apps to be sandboxed, but no one really gives a shit about the App Store (Apple included). Apple hasn't really pushed any user restrictions nearly as hard as MS has.

macOS only works on Apple computers. If you're talking about the future of open computing you can't really count on that, can you?

 

[Irminsul]

People keep saying the bolded without giving any reason for it. macOS is nothing like iOS in terms of user permissions. The Mac App store does require apps to be sandboxed, but no one really gives a shit about the App Store (Apple included). Apple hasn't really pushed any user restrictions nearly as hard as MS has.

Doesn't the latest macOS remove the option to allow all programs to run, even if they're not "verified developers"?

So Apple is at least going in the exact same direction.

 

[Pantaghana]

I know it's not exactly the same but isn't it like the music industry where you had vinyl to cassette to CD to streaming? Technology moves on and platforms and hardware are left behind? I don't mean for that to sound as brutal as it might be,

We will all be streaming games from our toaster in 50 years time

The problem with that comparison is in the vinyl -> casette -> CD progression each step had clear benefits from the previous and were incompatible technologies.

Software doesn't work that way, old programs can be updated and modified to keep up with the new. Even if the developer/publishers abandons their own product, users have access to the files and can update it themselves.

And even if software isn't updated, keeping some older libraries for the sake of compatibility is trivial.

And no, unless streaming is done at FTL speeds, it will never be as good as playing on your own machine.

 

[StereoVsn]

People keep saying the bolded without giving any reason for it. macOS is nothing like iOS in terms of user permissions. The Mac App store does require apps to be sandboxed, but no one really gives a shit about the App Store (Apple included). Apple hasn't really pushed any user restrictions nearly as hard as MS has.

I was under impression that they kept pushing the App Store on OSX and we're trying to deprecate APIs outside it. I am glad I am wrong. That offers another mobile option at least.

 

[aeolist]

Doesn't the latest macOS remove the option to allow all programs to run, even if they're not "verified developers"?

So Apple is at least going in the exact same direction.

gatekeeper has gradually been getting more restrictive but i don't think they're quite to that point yet, not sure though. it's kind of moot, apple's been so apathetic about supporting professional-grade hardware/software on their platform that most of the people i used to hear about this stuff from have long since migrated to windows/linux/android.

 

[ElFly]

valve really needs to step up their game and make games playable on linux via some windows emulation or something

with signed drivers becoming a thing we can't just trust that certain apis or capabilities will be reserved to the MS app store after a certain point

gatekeeper has gradually been getting more restrictive but i don't think they're quite to that point yet, not sure though. it's kind of moot, apple's been so apathetic about supporting professional-grade hardware/software on their platform that most of the people i used to hear about this stuff from have long since migrated to windows/linux/android.

I think at a certain point they will just claim it is for security and disable non signed executables, period. it is the default in macosx right now. in fact I leave it like that for security and just go through the motions to run the unsigned executables I need. it only badgers you once

whether they demand they all come from the app store is moot after they ask for signed executable

and yeah, macosx is nice and all, and it is cool that it supports some games, but clearly not an option for the complex ecosystem of gaming products on the windows side

 

[aeolist]

I was under impression that they kept pushing the App Store on OSX and we're trying to deprecate APIs outside it. I am glad I am wrong. That offers another mobile option at least.

mac OS will never be a viable replacement for gaming if microsoft really locks down windows. even if apple continues to allow open development and modification their driver and API support have been absolute garbage for years with no signs of improvement.

linux has many of the same issues but they're at least theoretically fixable since there's no corporate gatekeeper and the problem is developer/vendor interest, on mac OS apple controls everything and do not give a single fuck.

 

[chadskin]

Doesn't the latest macOS remove the option to allow all programs to run, even if they're not "verified developers"?

So Apple is at least going in the exact same direction.

No. Apple has only removed the option in the preferences in Sierra to allow all apps downloaded from anywhere (left: El Capitan, right: Sierra):

Instead, in Sierra you have to grant permission to each unsigned app individually the first time you start it up, by simply right-clicking on the app and selecting Open.

Which is a sensible thing to do because most people probably enable the option early on when they set up their Mac to install an app or two that aren't signed and leave it at that, potentially exposing them to scummy apps in the future. Kind of defeated the purpose of Gatekeeper, really.

If you're having none of that, "sudo spctl --master-disable" to shut down Gatekeeper altogether still works in Sierra as well.

 

[horkrux]

Even worse if MS completely pulls Win32 support in say 5 years from Win10 Home, corporate users won't care since it's all Pro/Ent/Edu editions.

So what? If they wanted to make the basic version even worse so no one would buy it, power to them. You don't have to be a 'corporate user' to simply use the Pro version. I've been using Pro (or whatever equivalent there was to it) since Windows XP.

 

[serversurfer]

But you have to remember that MS got caught doing this, and fined hugely for it, a few times before. They're not going to just start this shit again with the EU and the US Government breathing down their necks.

"They've done this shit so much, there's no way they'd do it again!" Congratulations, that may be the most bizarre rationale for supporting MS that I've ever seen. Takes the whole, "But all of that stuff doesn't mean we shouldn't trust them this time," argument and raises it up a notch.

mac OS will never be a viable replacement for gaming if microsoft really locks down windows. even if apple continues to allow open development and modification their driver and API support have been absolute garbage for years with no signs of improvement.

I'm pretty sure that AMD and nVidia are responsible for providing drivers, not Apple. Similarly, aren't APIs controlled by … an apiary, I'd guess? It was Satya's decision not to bring DX12 to Linux, not Linus', right?

linux has many of the same issues but they're at least theoretically fixable since there's no corporate gatekeeper and the problem is developer/vendor interest, on mac OS apple controls everything and do not give a single fuck.

So, Apple are blocking AMD and nVidia from supporting their own hardware? They provide Apple with updated drivers, and rather than include them in the OS updates, Apple simply reject them, and somehow prevent AMD and nVidia from offering them on the side? You've some evidence of this, I assume?

 

[epmode]

So what? If they wanted to make the basic version even worse so no one would buy it, power to them.

A significant number of people wouldn't know about the restriction before they were stuck with the Home version. Obviously.

 

[jelly]

So what? If they wanted to make the basic version even worse so no one would buy it, power to them. You don't have to be a 'corporate user' to simply use the Pro version. I've been using Pro (or whatever equivalent there was to it) since Windows XP.

You mean this Pro version

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1253667

Microsoft giveth and taketh as they please.

 

[aeolist]

"They've done this shit so much, there's no way they'd do it again!" Congratulations, that may be the most bizarre rationale for supporting MS that I've ever seen. Takes the whole, "But all of that stuff doesn't mean we shouldn't trust them this time," argument and raises it up a notch.



I'm pretty sure that AMD and nVidia are responsible for providing drivers, not Apple. Similarly, aren't APIs controlled by … an apiary, I'd guess? It was Satya's decision not to bring DX12 to Linux, not Linus', right?


So, Apple are blocking AMD and nVidia from supporting their own hardware? They provide Apple with updated drivers, and rather than include them in the OS updates, Apple simply reject them, and somehow prevent AMD and nVidia from offering them on the side? You've some evidence of this, I assume?

all drivers for mac os are written and provided by apple in their core os updates. it's uncertain how much they take from amd/nvidia/intel code and how much they write themselves but you cannot just grab an installer from the hardware vendor to get an update.

performance and opengl compatibility lag far behind winodws and even linux because apple just doesn't care. they're also not supporting vulkan because they want developers to use their proprietary metal api.

e. video drivers that is. i belive it's true for all kernel mode drivers but i'm not certain.

 

[serversurfer]

all drivers for mac os are written and provided by apple in their core os updates.

Source for Apple writing them? I know they push them out as OS updates, but everything I'm seeing indicates they're written by AMD and nVidia, just as they are for Windows and Linux.

but you cannot just grab an installer from the hardware vendor to get an update.

So this is fake?

performance and OpenGL compatibility lag far behind windows and even linux because apple just doesn't care. they're also not supporting vulcan because they want developers to use their proprietary metal api.

As I said, providing this functionality appears to be the responsibility of the GPU vendors. You haven't really presented any evidence to the contrary; just continued blasting Apple for failing to do it themselves, even though nobody else does it themselves.

 

[0coolclimate0]

The lizard government of Microsoft. Lol

 

[Reg]

The lizard government of Microsoft. Lol

 

[horkrux]

A significant number of people wouldn't know about the restriction before they were stuck with the Home version. Obviously.

And a significant number of those people wouldn't be OK with this move at all. I don't even know why anyone would think they could just cut out something of this size and get away with it. They'd get sued to kingdom come.

They'd rather boil us like frogs in a pot, not pull the rugs from under us.

 

[aeolist]

Source for Apple writing them? I know they push them out as OS updates, but everything I'm seeing indicates they're written by AMD and nVidia, just as they are for Windows and Linux.


So this is fake?


As I said, providing this functionality appears to be the responsibility of the GPU vendors. You haven't really presented any evidence to the contrary; just continued blasting Apple for failing to do it themselves, even though nobody else does it themselves.

i believe that's just for quadro workstation chips and are only provided for mac pro systems with modular video cards. none of those systems came with nvidia options standard so apple didn't make the drivers for them.

i'm not trying to be a confrontational asshole here which seems to be the impression you're getting, i'm just telling you what i know. if i'm wrong then so be it but to my knowledge 3d performance on mac os has been held back by apple's disinterest more than anything else.

 

[mcrommert]

As far as we are talking MS and Win10, think UWP vs Win32.

Which, as time moves forward, will have no real difference in ability to host complicated applications just in how they run on the computer

Also uwp can also refer to a repackaged win32 app post anniversary update

 

[serversurfer]

i believe that's just for quadro workstation chips and are only provided for mac pro systems with modular video cards. none of those systems came with nvidia options standard so apple didn't make the drivers for them.

Well, that's sorta what I was saying though. Because most Macs just have the GPU they came with, Apple push driver updates along with the other OS updates, but I'm reasonably sure said drivers are written by the vendors, just like any other platform. But yes, the drivers I linked are for the few aftermarket cards actually available for Mac, which is why Apple don't get involved with distribution.

i'm not trying to be a confrontational asshole here which seems to be the impression you're getting, i'm just telling you what i know.

Fair enough. Same here. <3

if i'm wrong then so be it but to my knowledge 3d performance on mac os has been held back by apple's disinterest more than anything else.

I suppose Apple could push for that stuff more than they do, but I see no reason for them to block it. They provide Xcode for Mac and iOS development, and they want people to use them, but they make no effort to prevent the use of other development environments and APIs. How would that benefit them? I suspect the "disinterest" is more external than internal.

 

[neoism]

but but win 10 is better guys...

&#128530;

will never use it

win7 fo lyfe...

 

[aeolist]

Well, that's sorta what I was saying though. Because most Macs just have the GPU they came with, Apple push driver updates along with the other OS updates, but I'm reasonably sure said drivers are written by the vendors, just like any other platform. But yes, the drivers I linked are for the few aftermarket cards actually available for Mac, which is why Apple don't get involved with distribution.


Fair enough. Same here. <3


I suppose Apple could push for that stuff more than they do, but I see no reason for them to block it. They provide Xcode for Mac and iOS development, and they want people to use them, but they make no effort to prevent the use of other development environments and APIs. How would that benefit them? I suspect the "disinterest" is more external than internal.

i do know for a fact that the opengl framework is part of the operating system and maintained by apple themselves, because up until they migrated to metal it was a dependency for the entire GUI. i've heard that they are so slow about updating since it's such a core part of the system and they have high standards for reliability but the fact remains that they're stuck on opengl 4.1 which is 4 versions back and 6 years old.

if amd and nvidia were responsible for that part of the graphics stack this would not be the case, and mac os would support vulkan as well. both of them provide up-to-date support of opengl 4.5 and vulkan 1.0 for windows and linux, i can't think of any reason why they would leave mac os out.

 

[serversurfer]

i do know for a fact that the OpenGL framework is part of the operating system and maintained by apple themselves, because up until they migrated to metal it was a dependency for the entire GUI. i've heard that they are so slow about updating since it's such a core part of the system and they have high standards for reliability but the fact remains that they're stuck on OpenGL 4.1 which is 4 versions back and 6 years old.

Interesting. Thanks. <3

if amd and nvidia were responsible for that part of the graphics stack this would not be the case, and mac os would support vulcan as well. both of them provide up-to-date support of OpenGL 4.5 and vulcan 1.0 for windows and linux, i can't think of any reason why they would leave mac os out.

That's the part I don't understand. If AMD implements OGL and Vulkan on Windows and Linux, why isn't it also their responsibility to do the same on Mac? Why are only Apple expected to roll their own support? =/

 

[dragonelite]

That's the part I don't understand. If AMD implements OGL and Vulkan on Windows and Linux, why isn't it also their responsibility to do the same on Mac? Why are only Apple expected to roll their own support? =/

To push their metal API

 

[flaxknuckles]

Interesting. Thanks. <3


That's the part I don't understand. If AMD implements OGL and Vulkan on Windows and Linux, why isn't it also their responsibility to do the same on Mac? Why are only Apple expected to roll their own support? =/

Because Apple controls that. They are the reason Mac OS doesn't have Vulkan or newest Opengl releases. Amd cannot put it there themselves.

 

[Lazaro]

Does anyone still remember this internal May 2010 Microsoft video regarding the future of Windows PC Gaming?

It looks they had plans to make a GFWL 2.0 client before scrapping everything and moving to WinRT/UWP development.

 

[Pathfinder]

but but win 10 is better guys...

&#128530;

will never use it

win7 fo lyfe...

Or, until 2020 at least...

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

Must be the first step right.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1260888

 

[Pathfinder]

Must be the first step right.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1260888

Heh, right?

Care to weigh in, Tim?

 

[LordRaptor]

Must be the first step right.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1260888

No replies in that thread so you bumped this one? ah well.

 

[Pathfinder]

No replies in that thread so you bumped this one? ah well.

Well, it's a question worthy of an answer, is it not?

I mean Tim's been going on and on and on about how Microsoft's secret plan is to sabotage Steam/Win32... and then we hear Quantum Break is coming to Steam, in Win32 form even.

Somebody's got some 'splainin' to do.

 

[PFD]

Must be the first step right.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1260888

I think we can thank Remedy for that, not Microsoft

 

[Ricerocket]

Well, it's a question worthy of an answer, is it not?

I mean Tim's been going on and on and on about how Microsoft's secret plan is to sabotage Steam/Win32... and then we hear Quantum Break is coming to Steam, in Win32 form even.

So what's your opinion on why it's only Quantum Break? I think it's because MS fucked them over with the X1 buyers getting keys that they then sold here and elsewhere for like $10 to grab on the W10 store. Hence they got a break from W10 exclusive.

 

[Pathfinder]

So what's your opinion on why it's only Quantum Break? I think it's because MS fucked them over with the X1 buyers getting keys that they then sold here and elsewhere for like $10 to grab on the W10 store. Hence they got a break from W10 exclusive.

Even if that assumption is true, how does that fall into the whole "sabotaging Steam/Win32" narrative that Tim is trying to sell everyone?

I don't have a personal opinion on it other than its awesome that it'll be available in more places so more gamers can have a chance to play it.

 

[Sky87]

I think we can thank Remedy for that, not Microsoft

Microsoft is the publisher and owner of the IP, they couldn't have forced Microsoft's hand in this. Only logical conclusion is MS is behind it, and it speaks positively for the future.

 

[PsihoPerihelion]

Their plan to make Steam worst already started, by putting Quantum Break on that store.

Spoiler

Great game but PC version is meh

 

[rakkadakka]

Microsoft is the publisher and owner of the IP, they couldn't have forced Microsoft's hand in this. Only logical conclusion is MS is behind it, and it speaks positively for the future.

But what will Tim Sweeney's MS insiders say about this?

He's got all the secret MS plans.

 

[LordRaptor]

Microsoft is the publisher and owner of the IP, they couldn't have forced Microsoft's hand in this. Only logical conclusion is MS is behind it, and it speaks positively for the future.

I think the fact that Nordic Games had to step in to help make it happen means the most credit we can give MS on this one is not actively trying to stop it even after their own political maneuvering meant it was sent to die in the first place.

It's also entirely unrelated to the issues raised by Tim Sweeney which should be obvious to anyone capable of stepping outside of a console wars trench defend the hive against the heretic Sweeney mindset.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Even if that assumption is true, how does that fall into the whole "sabotaging Steam/Win32" narrative that Tim is trying to sell everyone?

I don't have a personal opinion on it other than its awesome that it'll be available in more places so more gamers can have a chance to play it.

What Sweeney was talking about is an ongoing process while Remedy's finances (they might have bonuses or clauses in their contract regarding number of copies sold) are current. It could be that MS let them release it on Steam to make some money.

I'm not saying that's what happened, just that it's a possibility.

 

[Pathfinder]

I think the fact that Nordic Games had to step in to help make it happen means the most credit we can give MS on this one is not actively trying to stop it even after their own political maneuvering meant it was sent to die in the first place.

It's also entirely unrelated to the issues raised by Tim Sweeney which should be obvious to anyone capable of stepping outside of a console wars trench defend the hive against the heretic Sweeney mindset.

The gymnastics in this response are worthy of the Olympics.

 

[Squire]

Must be the first step right.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1260888

Hold that L, Tim.

 

[LordRaptor]

The gymnastics in this response are worthy of the Olympics.

Is "gymnastics" supposed to be a rebuttal of some kind?
What did I say that is demonstrably wrong?

 

[CosmicQueso]

It's also entirely unrelated to the issues raised by Tim Sweeney which should be obvious to anyone capable of stepping outside of a console wars trench defend the hive against the heretic Sweeney mindset.

Can someone please translate this?