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[wumster3000]

Can't wait to play this at 60fps. I'm pretty hyped for this remaster.

I also can't believe that this thread has been going on this long. Gaf is weird sometimes.

 

[icespide]

Once the photo mode shots hit the web , we'll never see a 60fps screenshot outside of gameplay videos

when you put it that way, this is actually kind of a genius idea

 

[ambientric]

Where did Naughty Dog say the game would never drop a frame, and what does "lower quality shadows" have to do with it? What does this have to do with "PR"? Is Corrine Yu running PR for Naughty Dog too now?

There's skepticism and then there is distrust, which is unwarranted.

You can believe what you want but maybe not derail every thread with the same tired bullshit.

There is also sacred cows, and the discouragement of debate. Which I would argue is at odds with the concept of an open forum of differing opinions and points of view.

I will check the forum rules, I must have missed the lines regarding any criticism/skepticism regarding naughty dog being off limits.

 

[i-Lo]

There is also sacred cows, and the discouragement of debate. Which I would argue is at odds with the concept of an open forum of differing opinions and points of view.

I will check the forum rules, I must have missed the lines regarding any criticism/skepticism regarding naughty dog being off limits.

Don't draw false equivalences. You are not participating in a "debate" if you can't back your own claims.

Also, if possible, refrain from using passive aggressive quips.

 

[Y2Kev]

There is also sacred cows, and the discouragement of debate. Which I would argue is at odds with the concept of an open forum of differing opinions and points of view.

I will check the forum rules, I must have missed the lines regarding any criticism/skepticism regarding naughty dog being off limits.

Why don't you answer the question? What does what you said have to do with Naughty Dog's behavior? It seems lazy to me to attribute my lack (and perhaps others as well) of skepticism towards Naughty Dog's claims to them being a "sacred cow" instead of, say, their past behavior and results.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

What evidence is there of frame drops? Did DF analyze it?

JLeack's article, it seems?

Spoiler

Can't believe people still listen to that guy after the thief fiasco

 

[ClearData]

The advantage of 60 fps is manifested in more responsive controls. I'd like that edge when slipping past clickers on grounded mode. Shadows? I'm not sure I much care for that trade-off.

 

[Pimpbaa]

The difference won't be as big this time as it was with the PS3 and 360. When they were released they were relativity powerful for their time, and also had very complex architecture meaning it took time for devs to learn how to develop for them. Neither of which you can say for the new consoles, which are basically AMD PCs.
This is good and bad. Good in the sense that developing for them is easier from the start, and porting between PC and consoles is easier. Bad because we won't see as much of a improvement in visual fidelity in a few years time compared to what we have now. They will still improve visually, but by not as much.

The 360 didn't have a complex architecture. I mean if we are greatly simplifying things, the 360 was basically a mac with a PowerPC cpu. So programming for that cpu wasn't some unknown variable (it having a stripped down windows and directx like the previous xbox helped too). Plus developers are apparently having a lot more difficulty with the sram in the xb1 than they did with the edram in the 360. The 360's main ram was also GDDR3 which didn't hinder the 360 anywhere nearly as much as the DDR3 ram does in the xb1.

 

[benny_a]

This is the shadow quality difference:

Friend sent me an example over PSN, he got his hands on the copy early, but you can see the difference.

30 FPS

60 FPS

 

[i-Lo]

Thanks Benny. Against the high fidelity of the surrounding it does stick out noticeably.

Does anyone remember if the PS3 version's shadow looked like that?

 

[SexyFish]

This is the shadow quality difference:

Noticeable, but I'll probably only use 30fps for photomode. Either way its a great improvement over PS3.

 

[Y2Kev]

That's actually not as bad as I thought based on the earlier shot. Still definitely noticeable.

 

[ambientric]

Why don't you answer the question? What does what you said have to do with Naughty Dog's behavior? It seems lazy to me to attribute my lack (and perhaps others as well) of skepticism towards Naughty Dog's claims to them being a "sacred cow" instead of, say, their past behavior and results.

The particular quote by Arne, equivalating frame rate drops to 59.9 when spinning around with explosions and giraffes, is the one that stuck in my craw. Can be found through post history.

Acceptable behaviour regards this release, appears to be endless posts regarding sticking it up your ass, jumping on the hype place etc... Personally I would think such "immature cheerleading" is more damaging to the forums credibility than questioning the validity and wholesale acceptance of "messages from the corporate machine".

But hey, I was educated to not believe what you read without balanced evidence and apply critical thinking to the source and objective/bias of any quote. Will write up some posts about sticking video games up on my ass, that will get me back on side and enhance the forum.

 

[brandonh83]

Yeah if that's what to expect from the shadowing parity between fps, I'll definitely go with 60. It's noticeable... here on GAF, where we're analyzing stills. During gameplay I'm not going to stop and check out the damn shadows.

 

[libregkd]

Thanks Benny. Against the high fidelity of the surrounding it does stick out noticeably.

Does anyone remember if the PS3 version's shadow looked like that?

PS3 was definitely worse.

 

[Dragon]

The particular quote by Arne, equivalating frame rate drops to 59.9 when spinning around with explosions and giraffes, is the one that stuck in my craw. Can be found through post history.

Acceptable behaviour regards this release, appears to be endless posts regarding sticking it up your ass, jumping on the hype place etc... Personally I would think such "immature cheerleading" is more damaging to the forums credibility than questioning the validity and wholesale acceptance of "messages from the corporate machine".

But hey, I was educated to not believe what you read without balanced evidence and apply critical thinking to the source and objective/bias of any quote. Will write up some posts about sticking video games up on my ass, that will get me back on side and enhance the forum.

I'm late to this conversation, people give ND the benefit of the doubt as far as technical stuff primarily because they're known as Sony's best tech developer. If you're going to be cynical about it, I'd think you'd need some compelling evidence for anyone to take you seriously.

The rest of your post seems to be just as salty and immature as the posts you're decrying. Kinda stands out when you're trying to be holier than thou about the whole thing.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

That's actually not as bad as I thought based on the earlier shot. Still definitely noticeable.

At least it's 2x better than PS3 TLoU. I play with games like that a lot on PC though so this is nothing new.

 

[i-Lo]

PS3 was definitely worse.

My rose tinted memory glasses just cracked. I must admit that even at 60 option, it looks better than what's on PS3. I guess the discrepancy feels greater against everything else that have received comparatively greater upgrades.

I think it's time developers found innovative solutions for drawing up better shadows while simultaneously being more processor cycle efficient.

 

[benny_a]

But hey, I was educated to not believe what you read without balanced evidence and apply critical thinking to the source and objective/bias of any quote. Will write up some posts about sticking video games up on my ass, that will get me back on side and enhance the forum.

Because I also read that thread. The whole ass stuffing stuff was garbage. It does not follow that because that is silly that IGN are now and I quote you: "objective journalist" who apparently are to be trusted on technical matters if the writer doesn't understand the difference between shadow maps being twice as good as on PS3 and "twice the shadows."

Guess what, Naughty Dog has a reputation. IGN has a reputation too. Just as you do.

I think it's time developers found innovative solutions for drawing up better shadows while simultaneously being more processor cycle efficient.

The PS4 has a lot of GPU compute and shadow maps are the one application of GPU compute where there is no dispute about whether or not it'll help.

 

[Wishmaster92]

 

[VisceralBowl]

EDIT: Reversed the GIF.

 

[i-Lo]

The particular quote by Arne, equivalating frame rate drops to 59.9 when spinning around with explosions and giraffes, is the one that stuck in my craw. Can be found through post history.

Acceptable behaviour regards this release, appears to be endless posts regarding sticking it up your ass, jumping on the hype place etc... Personally I would think such "immature cheerleading" is more damaging to the forums credibility than questioning the validity and wholesale acceptance of "messages from the corporate machine".

But hey, I was educated to not believe what you read without balanced evidence and apply critical thinking to the source and objective/bias of any quote. Will write up some posts about sticking video games up on my ass, that will get me back on side and enhance the forum.

I didn't know that NeoGAF had some of innate credibility given it is open to all to sign up with private email and not just developers. Recent occurrences have showed that NeoGAF is not considered "gaming press".

As for accepting it wholesale: If that were really the case then we would not be seeing this very thread to begin with. The winds are always shifting according to circumstance.

And lastly, you should really stop with passive aggressive nonsense. It is tremendously annoying and in effect negates any valid argument you want to make. As such, it wouldn't surprise me if you get banned right now because I feel as if you are trying to do just that.

 

[ambientric]

Because I also read that thread. The whole ass stuffing stuff was garbage. It does not follow that because that is silly that IGN are now and I quote you: "objective journalist" who apparently are to be trusted on technical matters if the writer doesn't understand the difference between shadow maps being twice as good as on PS3 and "twice the shadows."

Guess what, Naughty Dog has a reputation. IGN has a reputation too. Just as you do.

Within that thread I acknowledged I knew little of ign's technical nous. My original point was to question posters acceptance of corporate messaging when they exist to sell you a product and that anyone who is trying to sell you something should be viewed with bias. In theory a journalist, who is not trying to sell you something is inherently more objective.

 

[GQman2121]

Activision didn't produce a single HD Call of Duty last generation on console because maintaining 60 frames is that important.

If those higher res shadows are really worth sacrificing 60 frames per second, then fuck this world. It's such a small visual detail to an otherwise beautiful looking game, that the better frame rate is definitely the way to go.

 

[SneakyStephan]

I thought the 30 fps one would be like penumbra soft shadows and some really fancy ao like in ac4

not just shitty shadows and regular shadows
Surely a 7850 can do a lot better than that at 60 fps

 

[orochi91]

Within that thread I acknowledged I knew little of ign's technical nous. My original point was to question posters acceptance of corporate messaging when they exist to sell you a product and that anyone who is trying to sell you something should be viewed with bias. In theory a journalist, who is not trying to sell you something is inherently more objective.

You're right. In theory.

But then there's IGN. The theory then starts to fall apart.

 

[Durante]

Those are some pretty low-res shadows.

The PS4 has a lot of GPU compute and shadow maps is the one application of GPU compute where there is no dispute about whether or not it'll help.

Huh? Admittedly I haven't looked into shadow mapping for years but I thought it was bandwidth/fillrate limited.

 

[i-Lo]

The PS4 has a lot of GPU compute and shadow maps are the one application of GPU compute where there is no dispute about whether or not it'll help.

I meant the industry as a whole, especially for multiplat development. Real time shadows are here to stay and it will now account for third type of "pop in" (aside from object and LoD). Constraints of consoles have always pushed engine developers to push boundaries and make effects possible that were previously thought to be too processor intensive. The focus should now turn to visual factors that can detract from immersion and shadow quality is one of them.

 

[benny_a]

Within that thread I acknowledged I knew little of ign's technical nous. My original point was to question posters acceptance of corporate messaging when they exist to sell you a product and that anyone who is trying to sell you something should be viewed with bias. In theory a journalist, who is not trying to sell you something is inherently more objective.

And I agree in theory.

The circumstances matter.

IGN is IGN and have a history of being laughably uninformed when it comes to this stuff so the copy editor just accepts whatever technical drivel he submitted.

Arne knows NeoGAF so if he directly lies to posters on here, he will never live it down.

Huh? Admittedly I haven't looked into shadow mapping for years but I thought it was bandwidth/fillrate limited.

I have completely conflated it in my head. They are ROP bound (Source: sebbi) and that frees up resources for the GPU compute to use in that time.

 

[orochi91]

That is indeed, fairly noticeable.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

I thought the 30 fps one would be like penumbra soft shadows and some really fancy ao like in ac4

not just shitty shadows and regular shadows
Surely a 7850 can do a lot better than that at 60 fps

You only get soft shadows when the light source isn't as strong. The bright sun coming in through a window like the screenshot should result in a hard shadow, while a lamp in a room will result in a soft shadow.

Also, TLoU has the most impressive AO in a last gen game. AC4's AO doesn't even compare (even on next gen). In my experience, TLoU has the best ambient lighting I've ever seen in a video game with GTA V coming in close second.

 

[AstroNut325]

That is indeed, fairly noticeable.

Agreed. But, IMO, not to the point that I would sacrifice half the framerate.

 

[REV 09]

I thought the 30 fps one would be like penumbra soft shadows and some really fancy ao like in ac4

not just shitty shadows and regular shadows
Surely a 7850 can do a lot better than that at 60 fps

Agreed, I was expecting soft shadows or ao. I'll probably just stick with 60fps unless it dips too often.

 

[jayu26]

PS3 was definitely worse.

Burn it , burn it...

Edit: I'm only talking about shadows. Rest of it still looks very good.

 

[Erebus]

That is indeed, fairly noticeable.

It's noticeable because you look at it side to side. I doubt it will be THAT noticeable in motion while you actually play the game.

 

[icespide]

those shadows definitely aren't worth losing 60fps

 

[ShutterMunster]

I must be getting old because I can't see the difference to save my life. At least not in that gif comparison.

 

[DodgyGeezerFella]

Needs a third option that enables unlocked frame rate with best shadow option. Call it "Wobbly as fuck" mode.

 

[Lord Error]

Those are some pretty low-res shadows.

They had variable quality on PS3, so it's probably the case here as well, with those trees shadows being the worst case scenario. In 30FPS mode they are definitely not low res by any means even in that situation.

I thought the 30 fps one would be like penumbra soft shadows and some really fancy ao like in ac4

not just shitty shadows and regular shadows
Surely a 7850 can do a lot better than that at 60 fps

TLOU already has actual realtime ambient shadows for characters which is something SS/HBAO doesn't provide. I think the static scenery AO is baked so it wouldn't get improved by increased frame time.

Friend sent me an example over PSN, he got his hands on the copy early, but you can see the difference.

How did he get the patch?

 

[FACE]

http://i.minus.com/ibojKCm4PedVbF.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]

Those shadows are pretty bad, but 30 fps is way worse. It's a no-brainer.

 

[viveks86]

Finally an actual comparison! Noticeable difference indeed, but it seems like the only difference between the two shots. That ain't enough to create a dilemma for me. 60 fps wins by quite a margin.

 

[MrPink93485]

They had variable quality on PS3, so it's probably the case here as well, with those trees shadows being the worst case scenario. In 30FPS mode they are definitely not low res by any means even in that situation.


TLOU already has actual realtime ambient shadows for characters which is something SS/HBAO doesn't provide. I think the static scenery AO is baked so it wouldn't get improved by increased frame time.


How did he get the patch?

Based on our PSN convo, he said he was able to download it last night, that's all I really know. For what it's worth, he said he would take the 60 FPS > better shadows.

 

[Agent Matt]

Oh man, I was already having a tough time deciding whether or not to play on Grounded difficulty (already played on Survivor) and now they throw this decision at me?!

 

[VisceralBowl]

Oh man, I was already having a tough time deciding whether or not to play on Grounded difficulty (already played on Survivor) and now they throw this decision at me?!

Grounded 60 FPS, switch to 30 for screenshots if you take them.

Also, since this is a topic about shadows, here is this:

Original PS3
Original PS4 (I don't know which shadow mode it was)

 

[Agent Matt]

Grounded 60 FPS, switch to 30 for screenshots if you take them.

Yea it seems like Grounded and 60 FPS go hand in hand. You're going to want that extra responsiveness on Grounded.

What the hell, I am going for it. Team Grounded60 for me. I am so ready for this.

 

[Elios83]

The difference is pretty noticeable, probably not enough to justify a 30fps difference.
But I thought that the improved shadows would be enabled with the day one patch....so how was this capture made?

 

[Wishmaster92]

The difference is pretty noticeable, probably not enough to justify a 30fps difference.
But I thought that the improved shadows would be enabled with the day one patch....so how was this capture made?

IIRC US owners can download the patch already.

 

[~Kinggi~]

Grounded 60 FPS, switch to 30 for screenshots if you take them.

Also, since this is a topic about shadows, here is this:

Original PS3
Original PS4 (I don't know which shadow mode it was)

Wow, bummer ps4 is actually lacking in ways compared to ps3.

 

[TUROK]

Those are some pretty low-res shadows.

Huh? Admittedly I haven't looked into shadow mapping for years but I thought it was bandwidth/fillrate limited.

Aren't shadow volumes the fillrate limited ones?

 

[FairXchange]

Those shadows at 30fps are pretty damn nice, haven't seen anything like that on consoles before.