Wolfenstein: The New Order did this.
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TLOU Remastered: 30 fps option gives better shadow quality [Up: Comparison GIF in OP]
- Thread starter nhlducks35
- Start date
Wolfenstein: The New Order did this.
GavinUK86
Member
Backfoggen
Banned
I don't get it? Where have I questioned that this was in the PS3 version as well? The whole point of my post was "It was like this in the PS3 version but so was a bunch of other stuff they fixed".
They should have increased the sampling size on PS4 if that's how it looks.
Really don't get why you explained the technique behind this again.
VisceralBowl
Member
It can be if you lock it. It is 60 if you don't lock it.
Backfoggen
Banned
They should force 60 for the MP lol. When you go against other dudes you should take any advantage you can.
Doritos Locos Tacos are on sale.
Because your questioning seemed like you needed to understand. And, as I pointed out, you can see the effect is improved over what's in the PS3 version. It appears to be about 2x the resolution, in line with what they have said about the shadows all along. They probably can't improve it more without the effect becoming too costly unless they rewrote things heavily. I think virtually all of us posting in this thread have little to no qualifications for saying what they could have and should have done.
MasterForm
Member
I'm so glad that I'm able to play a game and not get hung up on some very minor mishaps. Most of the time I miss most of what some of you hyper critical people are seeing. It must suck to play games if you catch every little thing.
eddfromtheriver
Banned
GavinUK86
Member
Nothing really to fix.
Shocking, isn't it?
...there's plenty to fix, as evidenced by this 50 page thread.
They can't just increase it and get it to work.
That's about 60-70 lights intersecting to give the illusion of bounce lights there are limitations to the engine and the renderer even if the hardware itself is capable of doing it. Changing the way the engine handles few things means messing about with some things that could affect the entire renderer in a negative way considering the amount of rewrites it would involve. Having a ton of full resolution point lights on screen at a time could cause even the PS4 to chug, or maybe it was the engine that would cause the chugging. To get over this they would have required to come up with a different implementation to mimic bounce lighting from the flashlight.
What they improved in Remastered edition over the original is the texture resolution (they already had access to high quality textures), shadow resolution, framerate and rendering resolution...they didn't need to change the way the engine works for that. If you think it would be easy to just change the way they implement such a complex feature or just increase its sampling size by changing the value of the resolution of the samples then you ought to wonder why they couldn't just replace the lighting engine to make it like cutscenes or add other graphical features.
I'm going to weigh in on all of this and keep in mind this is just my opinion. That being said I'm sure there are others out there that feel the same. First it has to be stated that I'm in my mid 30s and have always been a console gamer. As a result I have no experience on the PC side of things. Being a console gamer I've become very accustomed to games operating around the 30 fps mark. To me 60 fps just looks and feels unnatural. I strongly fall into the 30 fps feels more cinematic camp. Now I'm sure this is just a result of conditioning as I strongly prefer 24 fps in movies as well. Now here's where I take issue with TLOU remastered. To me it's clear that the priority in this 'remaster' was to make the game run at 60 fps in 1080p. They accomplished this however it's apparent some things had to be scaled back or removed completely. And yes I know it's a PS3 game and there's crazy architecture to contend with etc. I just don't understand the push this generation to make games 60 fps for the sake of saying "look it runs at 60 fps". If the push is in regards to console war nonsense it needs to stop. Give me finished great looking games at whatever stable framerate sees the developers vision through. I would have much rather had a 30 fps TLOU with upgraded everything rather than a game which sacrifices graphical fidelity to hit 60 fps. Just imagine what this game could have looked like if all those long hours and overnight coding sessions were used to enhance a game already running at a rock solid 30fps. Again just my opinion.
vasametropolis
Member
Still rather have the 60 fps with shit shadows.
I agree. It's my main gripe with this remaster as well. This could have looked much
better than what is currently presented to us.
GavinUK86
Member
I disagree.
nowheretorun
Member
Backfoggen
Banned
are there tech papers I can read or where are you getting this info from? Seems highly specific for a small part of the game.
But I'm guessing these are just assumptions.
Historically this kinda thing could be improved pretty easily, especially at 30 fps and in scenes where barely anything is going on.
I'm still waiting on confirmation that this wasn't just a glitch that was fixed with the day one patch lol.
It probably feels unnatural because video games aren't naturally made.
There's something ironic about people getting worked up on shadow environmental details, when they belittle the technical advance between 30 and 60fps. And vice versa. Especially when the option for both exist ingame. Whats the point of arguing? You're all getting what you want in the end.
supernormal
Member
I'm on your side in regards to this game, but a lot of people here feel like the "upgraded everything" is just a sacrifice on the frame rate. I think for this specific case it was a lot easier for ND to upgrade frame rate and resolution instead of adding more effects because, like many people have said, those are tied to the code that was painstakingly optimized for PS3.
It's just an educated guess just like I presumed that they are doing a VPL based GI works (and all of this is pretty logical considering the hardware, and how the effect looks)
The concerns where shadow offsets give the appearance of completely missing lighting, or where lighting in some areas produces the blocky, roughly quarter-resolution appearance to the environments seem well outside of easily excused shortcomings, when the whole basis of the release is its technical optimizations. Those seem apparent enough to have been worth the effort to address.
One of those seems like a bug that will hopefully be patched (offset/missing shadows in 60fps), the other seems like a limitation of the engine that may simply not be fixable in this release.
I wonder what you'll notice more during gameplay. The quality of a shadow or that constantly higher frame rate.
The frame-rate. From the fluid, smooth movement when panning the camera, to blurred motion judder doing the same at 30fps.
There is absolutely an argument to be made for consistency.
A consistent 30fps can be adapted to.
The shadow resolution is inconsistent, and sometimes shadows are low res, other times they aren't. It's the kind of thing that may repeatedly stick out because it's different from everything else.
I could understand why a person might choose 30fps.
I'm very, very glad you folks weren't the ones calling the shots.
As has been mentioned elsewhere, it isn't all shadows that are affected, only some.
Example:
Stuff like shadows from foliage and fences will be lower quality.
TLOU truly is a story of redemption
But shadows and framerate are two different things.
Adapting to 30FPS is harder than adapting to lower quality shadows at 60FPS.
You also have to consider the benefits of temporal anti-aliasing you get from 60FPS when compared to 30FPS. The jagged edges of shadows will be less noticeable due to high framerate than it would in a still image.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
this thread hitting 50 pages combined with the fact that we only have ~80 years to live is confounding.
You're a brave man in this thread. Interesting point though. Arguably a remaster of TLoU should have kept the original framerate too (so 30). That would have allowed better shadows, or AA. They could have then chosen to dial back some settings to offer a 60fps mode. You'd perhaps end up with something similar to what we have, but the slightly different focus might have improved things at 30fps.
I wonder if part of the choice to go with 60fps was to experiment for their upcoming games?
But that's exactly what we have right now. -_-
And the reason they even have a 30FPS mode is for the "purists" (as said by the developer) who want to play at framerate similar to the original.
Xenon
Member
Wow... that is fugly.
Windom Earle
Member
I appreciate that more than you know.
And to be clear, I still prefer the game at 60 FPS. My goal wasn't to make the game look ugly, but just to find out what the difference between the two settings are and share that with others.
Why so much words for a simple fact? To you it's more important how a game looks than how it plays. Legit opinion, just state it as what it is. Don't hide behind your age though, 60fps is a thing of the early 90s if anything.
I definitely disagree that adapting to 30fps is harder than adapting to lower quality shadows, in terms of consistency.
My point is that if the game holds a constant 30, there is nothing out of place. The game runs at a consistent resolution, the shadows stay a relatively consistent quality throughout, and there aren't those additional technical hiccups that interrupt during gameplay and take your attention away from the gameplay or action at hand.
In 60fps mode, there is absolutely that huge benefit of increased framerate, but along with that comes some technical quirks like missing shadows, and lower resolution shadows. That alone wouldn't really be too noticeable, if it wasn't accompanied by much higher quality shadows (the prebaked ones) alongside it. It means that the player will see these crisp, high quality shadows directly alongside these pixellated, shimmery ones and that is inconsistent with the rest of the world. Because it's inconsistent it draws your attention and you'll notice it more regularly.
Playing in a lower frame rate (for most people) is something they will be able to consciously acknowledge once they start playing, but if it's solid never have to think about again.
I feel like you really need to actually see the PS4 version in person before making grand sweeping statements like this based on screenshots.
I think it's pretty apparent that the statements I'm making are based on the reasonable assumption that the screenshots available are representative of the game. Obviously if they find ways to improve the quality of these things in 60fps mode someone would have to reevaluate their decision.
And for emphasis, I haven't said "I am going to play on 30fps." I have said that I can understand why someone would play in 30fps mode, assuming that all of the information we have right now on the game is true.