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Tomb Raider: How Lara Croft became a game changer - BBC

IvorB

Member
Thought this would be interesting to some on the anniversary:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-37619114

A feminist icon, a virtual blow-up doll, the sixth Spice Girl, a cyberbabe, an ambassador for Britain, or a distorted male fantasy? Lara Croft, who turns 20 today, has been described as all of these.
Born at the height of Britpop, the female protagonist of computer game Tomb Raider became one of the pillars of Cool Britannia - but also provoked the ire of feminists who criticised her sexualised image.
Her journey took in two Hollywood films, numerous magazine covers and advertising campaigns but began in the comparatively unglamorous English city of Derby.

There was a thread on the anniversary but I thought this might deserve its own. Shoot me with two Uzis if old.
 

Nauren

Member
I totally read BBC in the wrong context following a title about Lara Croft. I think this makes me a terrible person.
 

alf717

Member
I totally read BBC in the wrong context following a title about Lara Croft. I think this makes me a terrible person.

I read a lot of the abbreviations here wrong as well. I saw someone use idgaf yesterday and thought id GAF when the user meant I don't give a fuck. I thought they meant id software Neogaf.
 

Coxy100

Banned
Unglamorous city Derby? How dare they talk about my home town like that.

It's true though, sadly it's a dump.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
I totally read BBC in the wrong context following a title about Lara Croft. I think this makes me a terrible person.

omg...

Maybe that will be a future VR version.

One thing can be said about the 80's and 90's...alot of iconic things were created back then.
 
Lara Croft was always a bit of a reluctant female icon in gaming. On one hand, you do have to applaud the designers back then for pushing a female lead into their game and sticking to their guns. On the other hand, you have to criticize Core a bit for trying to push the sex appeal of the character to make her an easier sell. It also made things stranger that this was a time when CG was still a new thing, and a "sexy" rendered female character looks quite bizarre now and wonky.

But for what every it is worth, Lara as a video game icon and a character did over shadow her own games and become a pop icon onto herself.
 

RagnarokX

Member
I preferred how she was before the 2013 reboot.

A lot of people focus on how she was used in marketing and her physical appearance, but as a character she was just a very strong person that happened to be female and didn't need justification for being who she was. Ever since CD took over it's been like "A strong woman who goes on adventures by herself for fun? That doesn't make sense! She needs to be looking for her missing mom and/or following in her dad's footsteps or stranded on rape island and she needs a support crew to talk to when she isn't talking to herself constantly!"
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Well she used to have personality and drive before the reboot so that isn't unexpected.
She has much more of a grounded personality. Her development from scared survivor to ambitious explorer in the reboot to ROTR is fantastic. And evident in the first scene of Rise.
 

Lime

Member
As I've stated elsewhere, the new Lara Croft is such a letdown in comparison to the old one.

She has much more of a grounded personality. Her development from scared survivor to ambitious explorer in the reboot to ROTR is fantastic. And evident in the first scene of Rise.

I disagree - she's still the same vulnerable, meek, exhausted, out-of-breath character that she was in the first game.
 
New Lara is so boring that I won't be returning for the next game if she doesn't grow a personality by then. I found her worse in Rise of The Tomb Raider than in the 2013 one. And I gave that game a pass because I thought it was an origin story and we'd be back to badass Lara after it but obviously that didn't happen.

And give her the dual pistols already and her gymnastics, I am tired of being an even more boring Katniss.
 
Tomb Raider: How Lara Croft became a game changer, until 2013 when she became a generic action woman.

God I miss the old, real Lara Croft.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
As I've stated elsewhere, the new Lara Croft is such a letdown in comparison to the old one.



I disagree - she's still the same vulnerable, meek, exhausted, out-of-breath character that she was in the first game.
Literally the first scene in ROTR is Lara Croft standing proud ready to climb over a literal mountain while her team is out of breath, exhausted, and about to give up. It seems your issue is with the team trying to portray her in a more grounded tone than someone like Nathan Drake who's literally superhuman and confusing the intentions of the design team. They don't animate Lara reacting to her environment, (like rubbing her arms in snowy environments), specifically because she's a woman, but because that's more believable, in the same way that she reaches her arm out when she goes near walls. As games get more realistic these are some of the nuances that are to be expected when it comes to character animation otherwise the character doesn't feel like they're in the world. Take for example the AC series, Ezio, did everything near perfectly, even as an old man, when they made Connor and added weather, they added things like him reacting to weather by rubbing his hands together, and in Unity starting adding things like stumbling after a long jump. Throughout Rise Lara also recovers and saves herself much faster in the vast majority of scenarios compared to in the first game. She's definitely not meek. Especially in terms of body language and how she interacts with others.
xhT47FZ.gif

It could be argued that they should've had more budget to change up her core animation set to be reflect the confidence she gained after the events of the first game. Since ROTR reuses quite a bit from TR in terms of animation.
 

Kinyou

Member
Mostly do the new games just need a new writer. The dialogues tend to be awful and clash with the more serious tone
 
Literally the first scene in ROTR is Lara Croft standing proud ready to climb over a literal mountain while her team is out of breath, exhausted, and about to give up. It seems your issue is with the team trying to portray her in a more grounded tone than someone like Nathan Drake who's literally superhuman and confusing the intentions of the design team. They don't animate Lara reacting to her environment, (like rubbing her arms in snowy environments), specifically because she's a woman, but because that's more believable, in the same way that she reaches her arm out when she goes near walls. As games get more realistic these are some of the nuances that are to be expected when it comes to character animation otherwise the character doesn't feel like they're in the world. Take for example the AC series, Ezio, did everything near perfectly, even as an old man, when they made Connor and added weather, they added things like him reacting to weather by rubbing his hands together, and in Unity starting adding things like stumbling after a long jump. Throughout Rise Lara also recovers and saves herself much faster in the vast majority of scenarios compared to in the first game. She's definitely not meek. Especially in terms of body language and how she interacts with others...

the lara croft i played in rotr was a desperate, obsessive neurotic with a penchant for brutal takedowns, & a tendency to commiserate with herself endlessly over campfires. & she had nothing whatsoever on the nasty, kickass original lara :) ...
 
Easily the worst main character I've seen in the past few years. The new Lara is a walking modern cliche bag with the personality of a rock.

I don't feel attached at all to the old Lara Croft, but I at least smiled at her witty remarks and moments of girl power anger. Modern Lara has nothing, she's not cool or interesting at all.
 

Alienfan

Member
New Lara is so boring that I won't be returning for the next game if she doesn't grow a personality by then. I found her worse in Rise of The Tomb Raider than in the 2013 one. And I gave that game a pass because I thought it was an origin story and we'd be back to badass Lara after it but obviously that didn't happen.

And give her the dual pistols already and her gymnastics, I am tired of being an even more boring Katniss.

Where's this hidden personality in the old Lara? She was literally just tits, and with the later Crystal Dynamic early 360 reboot, a generic badass at best (Resident Evil Alice / Underworld). The new reboot at least tries to make her a character (and a pretty good one imo)
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
As I've stated elsewhere, the new Lara Croft is such a letdown in comparison to the old one.



I disagree - she's still the same vulnerable, meek, exhausted, out-of-breath character that she was in the first game.

Haven't played Rise yet, but despite loving TR 2013, I fully kind of agree with you and others. In TR 2013, Lara essentially says three things

"I'm so sorry..."
"Stay there! I'll find a way to save you!"
"Dad... (or insert whatever other character she is currently thinking about apologizing about)"

Her entire personality is dictated by the reactions of others and she takes awkward blame for damn near everything. Her companions in the first game are much more grounded, but CD seemed to essentially fill the first game with a sense that Lara's whole focus is to live up to expectations and take absurd responsibility for all that ails the situation at hand. I'm wrapping up a replay before moving onto Rise, but its been nagging at me as I revisit the game.

Still really looking forward to Rise and am loving playing TR 2013 a second time, but I do kind of wish Lara showed more confidence and a demand for adventure beyond merely fulfilling the needs of others.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
the lara croft i played in rotr was a desperate, obsessive neurotic with a penchant for brutal takedowns, & a tendency to commiserate with herself endlessly over campfires. & she had nothing whatsoever on the nasty, kickass original lara :) ...
Everyone in Rise was obsessed with the macguffin, it's par for the course with this series. Determined is a more accurate word than desperate.

Haven't played Rise yet, but despite loving TR 2013, I fully kind of agree with you and others. In TR 2013, Lara essentially says three things

"I'm so sorry..."
"Stay there! I'll find a way to save you!"
"Dad... (or insert whatever other character she is currently thinking about apologizing about)"

Her entire personality is dictated by the reactions of others and she takes awkward blame for damn near everything. Her companions in the first game are much more grounded, but CD seemed to essentially fill the first game with a sense that Lara's whole focus is to live up to expectations and take absurd responsibility for all that ails the situation at hand. I'm wrapping up a replay before moving onto Rise, but its been nagging at me as I revisit the game.

Still really looking forward to Rise and am loving playing TR 2013 a second time, but I do kind of wish Lara showed more confidence and a demand for adventure beyond merely fulfilling the needs of others.
Yea Lara in Rise is nothing like that. Lara in the first game would never give you this look.
QVxNvmI.gif
 
Everyone in Rise was obsessed with the macguffin, it's par for the course with this series. Determined is a more accurate word than desperate.


Yea Lara in Rise is nothing like that.
QVxNvmI.gif
Agreed tbh.

Old Lara had no more "character", she would just sassily reply to everything. There is something to be said about her stubbornness and ambition, which I'm still hoping we will see more of in New Lara, but there really wasn't much else to her. She was designed to be sexy and that was the main focus.
 
Everyone in Rise was obsessed with the macguffin, it's par for the course with this series. Determined is a more accurate word than desperate...

let's agree to disagree? to the extent it's all about 'dad's honor', & her whole 'daddy's little girl' fixation, i'd say it's as much 'desperate' as anything else it could be...
 

Shredderi

Member
The new Lara Croft is a much more built, grounded character and she is all the worse for it. She is more realistic but she also manages to be more boring.
 

Lime

Member
Literally the first scene in ROTR is Lara Croft standing proud ready to climb over a literal mountain while her team is out of breath, exhausted, and about to give up. It seems your issue is with the team trying to portray her in a more grounded tone than someone like Nathan Drake who's literally superhuman and confusing the intentions of the design team. They don't animate Lara reacting to her environment, (like rubbing her arms in snowy environments), specifically because she's a woman, but because that's more believable, in the same way that she reaches her arm out when she goes near walls. As games get more realistic these are some of the nuances that are to be expected when it comes to character animation otherwise the character doesn't feel like they're in the world. Take for example the AC series, Ezio, did everything near perfectly, even as an old man, when they made Connor and added weather, they added things like him reacting to weather by rubbing his hands together, and in Unity starting adding things like stumbling after a long jump. Throughout Rise Lara also recovers and saves herself much faster in the vast majority of scenarios compared to in the first game. She's definitely not meek. Especially in terms of body language and how she interacts with others.




It could be argued that they should've had more budget to change up her core animation set to be reflect the confidence she gained after the events of the first game. Since ROTR reuses quite a bit from TR in terms of animation.

You could gender-swap her with other male adventurers in video game culture and realize how rarely it is to see the main character clutch themselves in the face of coldness. Plus you even have the male Noah not being bothered by the cold in that opening sequence. Her entire characterization is in line with the whole "you'll want to protect her" design philosophy that Crystal Dynamics have approached the franchise with. Again, a simple gender-swap will highlight how rare it is to ever see a male character performing and showing the same vulnerability and same exhaustion and fragility that the new Lara Croft displays.

The thread I linked should answer your questions or at least outline my argument in detail. I think it is fairly evident that the voice direction, the voice performance, the animation of the character, and the storyline (e.g. being saved by Noah, going on adventures because of daddy issues, etc.) point towards a less independent and a more fragile characterization of a previously empowered gaming icon (albeit visually sexualized)
 

-MD-

Member
New Lara is easily one of the most bland main characters out there right now.

The most memorable thing about her is how often she grunts and moans.
 
Where's this hidden personality in the old Lara? She was literally just tits, and with the later Crystal Dynamic early 360 reboot, a generic badass at best (Resident Evil Alice / Underworld). The new reboot at least tries to make her a character (and a pretty good one imo)

Her personality isn't hidden. This was our introduction to the old Lara, and I think it shows her personality rather well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVoyLbo3Bp0

In terms of setting the stage for her character, by the time the first game took place her family had already disowned her and she was funding her adventures through writing. There were obviously fewer cutscenes in the original games compared to what there is now, so they fleshed out her character over time. Just for example, you'd need to combine all of the cutscenes in TR1-Chronicles to end up with as many cutscenes as the reboot has. Chronicles had the most cutscenes at 51m while the original TR only had 14m of cutscenes. But she certainly wasn't "just tits".
 

Vlaphor

Member
NuLara from TR2013 was an alright character, but her ROTR incarnation is the worst protagonist in any game ever. She does not want to be there, she hates everything that she is doing, and she doesn't want to anyone to enjoy the experience...especially the player.

If she was anyone else, this would have been her last game and she would've been forgotten about; however, since she's piggybacking off of a much more popular character, NuLara gets far more attention than she deserves.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
You could gender-swap her with other male adventurers in video game culture and realize how rarely it is to see the main character clutch themselves in the face of coldness. Plus you even have the male Noah not being bothered by the cold in that opening sequence. Her entire characterization is in line with the whole "you'll want to protect her" design philosophy that Crystal Dynamics have approached the franchise with. Again, a simple gender-swap will highlight how rare it is to ever see a male character performing and showing the same vulnerability and same exhaustion and fragility that the new Lara Croft displays.

The thread I linked should answer your questions or at least outline my argument in detail. I think it is fairly evident that the voice direction, the voice performance, the animation of the character, and the storyline (e.g. being saved by Noah, going on adventures because of daddy issues, etc.) point towards a less independent and a more fragile characterization of a previously empowered gaming icon (albeit visually sexualized)
It's rare because game characters still rarely have multiple contextual animations that correspond directly to the environment. Noah absolutely is bothered by the cold, (think about this btw, if main characters in game rarely have contextual animations that correspond directly to the environment, how often do you think npcs do?), this is his idle when the character doesn't progress.
He's cold as well. A lot of characters don't display the same vulnerability because in a lot of other games the animators don't focus on making the character as grounded as possible. And a lot of straight white male game characters are straight up unrealistic power fantasies.
 

ShyMel

Member
I like both old and new Lara, though I agree with Keeley being my favorite voice for her.

On another note, it's Jonah, not Noah. Took me a few minutes and a gif to figure out who was being referenced lol.
 

A-V-B

Member
I preferred how she was before the 2013 reboot.

She was awesome in her final appearances as classic Lara. I mean, that was the best she ever was. It's a bit mental they decided to redesign her at her peak, but it did make her more popular I guess.
 

Lime

Member
And a lot of straight white male game characters are straight up unrealistic power fantasies.

Which is exactly the point - because she is a female adventurer, she has to display vulnerability and fragility, while male ones wouldn't have to. But read the thread I linked if you're interested in the entire argument, Cross.
 
He's cold as well. A lot of characters don't display the same vulnerability because in a lot of other games the animators don't focus on making the character as grounded as possible. And a lot of straight white male game characters are straight up unrealistic power fantasies.

It's cool and all to humanize characters for certain things but to be honest, a lot of people preferred old Lara because she was cooler. Old Lara had a personality of a power fantasy, while new Lara isn't and tried to be more grounded, which is kind of hilarious because new Lara is the one clubbing dozens of people in the face. Yea I get the new Lara is deep and complex with a lot of subtle things (haven't played Rise yet though), but I found old Lara more appealing because playing with her was like going on an adventure with the equivalent of Indiana Jones. Some people just don't play certain games to be deep, and there is a game about having an adventure exploring ruins, I prefer something Indiana Jones-ish which is why I like old Lara.

Also on a tangential note, I tried Lara Croft and the Temple of Osiris on PSN and it's pretty fun. It's basically old Lara, with a whole action-y feel and throws realism out of the door with its elements and level design. It's too bad this kind of theme for Lara is relegated to a side game, since I would like to see a campy off the wall Lara game done in current gen AAA.
 
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