Support NeoGAF

[HouseofGlass]

In criticism, you can't say you don't like something, you must say what exactly you don't agree with and why you feel that way.

To be fair, you were sort of an unfair target. It's an attitude I see all over NeoGAF, the idea that you can only discuss a game a certain way and other ways "aren't valid" or "NeoGAF is just so darn negative why can't they remember that games are fun!!! (PS fun means only one thing if you disagree with me I'll push you into a scrub brush)" and I was just getting incredibly sick of it. You weren't being nearly as bad as most people and I'm sorry for picking on you.

To be fair to the other side, Skilletor HAS given the reasons why he's so down on the game. He's given them a number of times. That time he said a throwaway comment that I agree was a bit unnecessary, but it's not like he's never given a measured critique. He doesn't have to write a huge one in every post, just like posters who are enjoying the game a whole lot don't have to back up every single thing they say so long as they aren't just trolling (which I think Skilletor isn't).

Finally, I don't agree with your point that there is some objective measure of quality here that means some criticisms are out of bounds. If some people thought the game was really bad and they didn't enjoy it much at all, I don't think pointing to sales figures or the general reception is a fair response. In a lot of cases people who are being "over the top" in their negativity are just bitterly disappointed that a series they liked a lot became something they felt threw away their favorite aspects of Tomb Raider in favor of things they really disliked. Saying "well, it was successful in doing what they wanted it to do!" works if you're a stockholder but I don't think it should be the boundary marker of how bad you are allowed to call the game.

 

[hayejin]

This game is great. Best game I've played all year. Haters gonna hate.

Me too. Half way through and loving every minute of it.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

Agreed, the level of nitpicking and 'backlash' this game has got is... odd.

I'd hardly call it ‘backlash’. If anything now that the game is out things have gotten much more positive, because before the release....hooooo boy was the hate ridiculous.

Most of the hate now is from the people that were never going to like the game to begin with. It's pretty much just the same people constantly complaining over and over.

 

[spekkeh]

Yes, I do say that, in fact. It really doesn't have a solid "personality" to it. The spectacle setpieces never really wowed me like other action games. Combat doesn't feel quite as fluid as it should (though a great improvement over past games). Exploration is its strong point, but ultimately rather shallow and needed much fleshing out.

Combat is excellent. I just went back to Mass Effect 3, a game that upon release was lauded as being "nearly as good as gears". Man, so incredibly clunky and unfun compared to Tomb Raider.

If Far Cry 3 were in third-person and had platforming mechanics, it'd be a better "a survivor is born"/tomb-raiding game than Tomb Raider.

No it wasn't, the story in FC3 was completely asinine, at least Lara went through a period of being scared and reactionary, and she didn't for some unclear reason give up on all of her friends as soon as they were safe. Far Cry 3 was ticking off the boxes the game (both in design and gameplay), much more so than Tomb Raider. Everything was a collectable, weapons, your friends, endless amounts of useless trinkets, with next to nothing to tie them together. At least Lara feigned some interest everytime you collect a new relic, because she's an archaeologist.

 

[dreamfall]

Just 100%-ed it; I took it very slow after buying at launch and finding time to go through it. Played it for about 30 hours, with some crashes here and there.

I don't know- I mean I feel some satisfaction in collecting so many things, and I felt like some of the later tombs were on the right path to better puzzles. I also liked

Spoiler

how the Supernatural twist was dealt with

; granted it was entirely predictable, but it was fun regardless.

The supporting cast for this game is awful- everyone single one of them represents something stereotypical, and there is no evolution. Fat Vaas goes about having a heart of gold, Reyes is always scolding Lara, Roth as the caring father, etc. The writing is pretty abysmal- I guess when Pratchett spoke of narrative taking a back seat, she meant it.

But in some odd ways, since clearing the game, I kind of love going back and just walking about and clearing the small numbers of extra enemies. It feels peaceful, and really allows me to appreciate some of the beautiful art direction the game had, without sending waves of enemies to fight.

Still thinking about it- will post more later.

 

[Fabrik]

Review

Good review. I agree with a lot of it.

 

[spekkeh]

A lot of games are bad, true. This game isn't bad. But that the gameplay in this game never evolves past a very low to average level of quality and/or quantity in terms of how much player agency matters. It's well-made and controls great, but the gameplay itself is extremely basic and unchallenging.

Just because a lot of games are bad doesn't make this game "OMG amazing!" by default and exempt from valid criticism. You can enjoy a game and think it was much less than it should have been based on previous installments and franchise focus. The low quality/quantity of the platforming and puzzles really brings the game down for me. I liked what was there, but there was very little of it and it was too easy. The combat was improved, but the combat was crap and marginalized in the old games. Now they got it to an average level, but more than half the combat is monotonous and tiring wave combat that often kills the pace and replaces what would have been puzzles and platforming. Just because the majority of games are crap doesn't mean I'm going to lower the bar of quality so that anything that gets above it gets an A.

Games can only be good if they're really difficult?

 

[Derrick01]

If you think this game is "exceedingly average" then you don't play many games. A lot of games just suck or just are not as good as this.

Maybe you didn't like this game but are you gonna say that it is at the same level as most of the games out there?

I do play many games and to call it average is pretty on the ball. That's what happens when they make a game that doesn't try anything new or anything deep. Compared to the rest of the AAA industry it's completely average or slightly below.

 

[LiK]

I do play many games and to call it average is pretty on the ball. That's what happens when they make a game that doesn't try anything new or anything deep. Compared to the rest of the AAA industry it's completely average or slightly below.

What games have you been impressed by this gen? I'm quite curious.

 

[Ushojax]

The difference for me is the puzzles. Tomb Raider was always about puzzle solving and making you feel like Indiana Jones when you got some ancient contraptions working.

There were puzzles that took a long time to solve and involved dextrous platforming. What they've done in this new game is fine as an Uncharted clone but that's it. The key components of 'Tomb Raider' are only there in very basic forms.

 

[semiconscious]

I honestly don't mind if they want to improve the combat or introduce some story telling, but they should be good and not come at the expense of the platforming, puzzles, and level design in general. The game has underlying interesting concepts that are buried under the overabundant combat and never get beyond an introductory level of skill when there should be no reason for the game to be this easy; being a reboot is not an excuse. They could definitely build something better with what they made here (they should have done it with this game) but what incentive do they have to do so when many gamers are content with just this level and people that want more, at least a level that had already been attained, are written off as "haters"? The game is a step forward in art design and combat, but a huge step backwards in pretty much every other area...

well said. this's the saddest & most disappointing thing about tomb raider for me. cd've obviously got the graphics/tech down pat. it's their lack of inspiration/imagination that undermines everything that's done right in the game...

exploring tombs >>>>>>>>>> exploring lara's psyche ...

 

[Lee Chaolan]

Getting this game tonight for PS3. I'm so hype to start playing

 

[LiK]

well said. this's the saddest & most disappointing thing about tomb raider for me. cd've obviously got the graphics/tech down pat. it's their lack of inspiration/imagination that undermines everything that's done right in the game...

exploring tombs >>>>>>>>>> exploring lara's psyche ...

Origin story. Let's wait for a sequel.

 

[TGO]

I do play many games and to call it average is pretty on the ball. That's what happens when they make a game that doesn't try anything new or anything deep. Compared to the rest of the AAA industry it's completely average or slightly below.

yet worth more your time obviously.
on topic, are CD serious about no SP DLC?

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

Compared to the rest of the AAA industry it's completely average or slightly below.

Ok, we get it. You have shitty taste. No need to keep on reminding us every 2 seconds.

 

[Derrick01]

What games have you been impressed by this gen? I'm quite curious.

Too many to bother listing for the 700th person who's asked me that question. Nothing personal there, just tired of doing it.

Ok, we get it. You have shitty taste. No need to keep on reminding us every 2 seconds.

You of all people have no right to be calling anyone else's taste shitty. Corporate cheerleader from the start for one of the most average and bland games of the generation.

It's really kind of annoying when someone who revels in ultra streamlined, borderline casual games tells someone else they have shitty taste in games.

 

[Ushojax]

Origin story. Let's wait for a sequel.

Right, because if there's one thing this gen has taught us, it's that sequels focus on improving gameplay and not spectacle/scale.

*cough*
Mass Effect 2
Dragon Age 2
Dead Space 3
Fable 3
Assassin's Creed 3
*cough*

 

[LiK]

Right, because if there's one thing this gen has taught us, it's that sequels focus on improving gameplay and not spectacle/scale.

*cough*
Mass Effect 2
Dragon Age 2
Dead Space 3
Fable 3
Assassin's Creed 3
*cough*

You're just picking games you didn't like. There are other examples.

AC2 > AC1
Fable 2 > Fable 1
Gears 2 > Gears 1
etc.

 

[Ushojax]

You're just picking games you didn't like. There are other examples.

AC2 > AC1
Fable 2 > Fable 1
Gears 2 > Gears 1
etc.

Are those really examples you want to use?

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

You of all people have no right to be calling anyone else's taste shitty. Corporate cheerleader from the start for one of the most average and bland games of the generation.

It's really kind of annoying when someone who revels in ultra streamlined, borderline casual games tells someone else they have shitty taste in games.

I'm gonna sound like an ass here, but I actually laughed at this....if you truly think Tomb Raider is one of the most average and bland games of the gen then you’re a lost cause.

 

[spekkeh]

Right, because if there's one thing this gen has taught us, it's that sequels focus on improving gameplay and not spectacle/scale.

*cough*
Mass Effect 2
Dragon Age 2
Dead Space 3
Fable 3
Assassin's Creed 3
*cough*

Mass Effect 2 (and some would even argue DA2) massively improved the gameplay though.

 

[Derrick01]

Mass Effect 2 (and some would even argue DA2) massively improved the gameplay though.

No one sane would argue that about DA2 at least. Took the iso view away, introduced endless waves of enemies, took tactics away. I understand the debate about the ME franchise since some people don't prefer RPGs and prefer shooters, but with dragon age it's not even a debate since it still tried to be something of a RPG. It's a very bad RPG.

 

[LiK]

Are those really examples you want to use?

of course, they were better than their predecessors, imo.

 

[Ushojax]

Mass Effect 2 (and some would even argue DA2) massively improved the gameplay though.

The combat, sure. The game structure however took a complete nosedive and went even lower with Mass Effect 3.

What I'm saying is that the biggest, most expensive games, generally look towards expanding multiplayer and making the core experience 'more accessible' as opposed to fleshing out the core gameplay and design in a way that is true to the spirit of the franchise.

 

[spekkeh]

No one sane would argue that about DA2 at least. Took the iso view away, introduced endless waves of enemies, took tactics away. I understand the debate about the ME franchise since some people don't prefer RPGs and prefer shooters, but with dragon age it's not even a debate since it still tried to be something of a RPG. It's a very bad RPG.

This belies a simplistic notion that more options = more RPG = better. Not saying that that's your opinion, but it's one that's all too prevalent in gaming culture. The 'tactics' in DAO were utter crap and no fun at all. This does not have anything to do with preference for the one or the other; I prefer RPGs AND shooters, mixing them is not intrinsically bad

 

[spekkeh]

The combat, sure. The game structure however took a complete nosedive and went even lower with Mass Effect 3.

What I'm saying is that the biggest, most expensive games, generally look towards expanding multiplayer and making the core experience 'more accessible' as opposed to fleshing out the core gameplay and design in a way that is true to the spirit of the franchise.

I would also argue that ME2's core gameplay and design is truer to the spirit of the franchise than the first (though not ME3 which deviated by making it a Gears clone that did not fit the franchise). But it's kind of offtopic here.

 

[Derrick01]

This belies a simplistic notion that more options = more RPG = better. Not saying that that's your opinion, but it's one that's all too prevalent in gaming culture. The 'tactics' in DAO were utter crap and no fun at all. This does not have anything to do with preference for the one or the other; I prefer RPGs AND shooters, mixing them is not intrinsically bad

It kind of is until someone can offer one that's not just a shooter with a XP bar and light skill tree. Don't get me wrong I'm open to someone trying because as much as I like crpgs, it's not for their combat systems. So I would love for someone to make a RPG as deep as those but with the combat of a shooter if it has guns or I guess something like Dark Souls if it's a fantasy RPG.

And more is definitely better. More RPG elements and options is what differentiates something like Skyrim with something like Baldur's Gate 2, or Fallout New Vegas if you want a more modern example.

 

[Fabrik]

Crystal Dynamics got my attention with this game. But if the next one is as linear, has as few complex puzzles and as much combat, I'll pass. Develop the free-roaming platform aspect and make it challenging. Make every jump count. Make it hard to know how to access an area. Reaching the top of a cliff should be a puzzle. Pushing up to climb highlighted walls is not very rewarding.

 

[.GqueB.]

I'm at the beach now. First time boredom and monotony has set in. The characters and narrative aren't quite enough to break up the pacing, and I'm finding things a tad repetitive and sparse. Hopefully it picks up again soon.

That's where I hoped it would end but it just continues. There's a whole section there I feel could've been stripped out with no consequence. HAVE FUN!!!

But seriously, we had the same reaction there. You just have to get over that hump I just mentioned.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

snip

Not like I didn't assume we'd agree on pretty much everything of course, but good read.

I'd hardly call it ‘backlash’. If anything now that the game is out things have gotten much more positive, because before the release....hooooo boy was the hate ridiculous.

Most of the hate now is from the people that were never going to like the game to begin with. It's pretty much just the same people constantly complaining over and over.

I made it a point to discuss things I enjoyed. I'm not going to lie about things I see as flaws just to be kind any more than I'd lie about things I liked. There's many things I enjoyed about this game, but fundamentally I feel the gameplay did a disservice to the effort the team put into the project. I really don't know what to say if I'm expected to censor myself to be considered reasonable by some people.

I'll say this much: Considering the PR focused on some of the worst parts of the game, I will likely put a tad less stock next time in anything SE's marketing shows us. Those parts were exactly as bad as I expected, but they were not the whole game.

 

[semiconscious]

Origin story. Let's wait for a sequel.

i wanna believe! ...

i'll say it: i hate origin stories. while there's obviously a large appetite out there for this stuff, & while i can understand how irresistible an opportunity it might seem to be to an author (yes! i get to fabricate the 'origin' of an already existent, extremely popular character!), i personally have no interest in having my pulp heroes/heroines diminished/demystified via the 'back when he/she was just like you or me' route...

what i do like: i like the 'young indy' route. i liked both the 'little lara' episode in chronicles, & the 'little nate' section of u3. i like them because they maintain the same tone, & embody the same pulpy spirit of all the other stuff. while they succeed in offering a bit of insight, they exist primarily to entertain, & not to analyze...

what i also like: things like the multiple 'cleveland' references in escape from l.a. - obscure comments about earlier adventures/experiences that leave it up to each person to piece together for themselves. a lot more interesting/entertaining to me than 'snake plisken: origin' ...

so, yeah - my deep-seated hatred of origin-stories in general has a lot to do with my dissatisfaction with this game. & if indeed cd plan at this point is to do a 180, back to basics tr next time, i would strongly encourage them to find a writer up to the task, someone who couldn't give a damn what makes lara tick & is simply content in letting her do her thing...

 

[ubersticky]

Does the game have any unlockable costumes or were they just for pre-order DLC?

 

[NullPointer]

I'm gonna sound like an ass here, but I actually laughed at this....if you truly think Tomb Raider is one of the most average and bland games of the gen then you’re a lost cause.

You really don't get it. The complaints here are about gameplay and the mechanics the players get to explore and the challenges they get to overcome. That's whats "average" or even "below average" here. Tomb Raider is a hodge podge of shallow systems and busy work, almost entirely cribbed from other games, at the expense of everything that made the series memorable and cherished for years, again, from a gameplay point of view.

Production values, polish and spectacle can only mask a lack of depth for so long.

Can you really not see this?

 

[spekkeh]

I can, but I disagree. There's a real lack of depth or profoundness to the story, making it a bit of an inconsequential experience and I would have liked there to be more exploration, but the mechanics are great because the game is fluid and very fun to play. I was not bored until the credits rolled and that is extremely rare for me.

 

[SkullplateMurray]

Does the game have any unlockable costumes or were they just for pre-order DLC?

I've completed it and I haven't seen any. Just the character models.

You have to pay for the costumes I think, and they are fairly expensive.

 

[RagnarokX]

Games can only be good if they're really difficult?

No. Gameplay systems should contain at least some difficulty so that the player feels like their input really mattered. I want to have to think. Tomb Raider is a franchise that used to make you think a lot; this new game hardly makes you think at all. The very few times where the game threw me a puzzle had me smiling, but those times were few and fleeting. The platforming segments looked nice, but I wasn't really doing anything but following a very obvious and easy path, for the whole game.

It reminds me of Arkham Asylum with all of the challenge sucked from it. That was a great game.

I can, but I disagree. There's a real lack of depth or profoundness to the story, making it a bit of an inconsequential experience and I would have liked there to be more exploration, but the mechanics are great because the game is fluid and very fun to play. I was not bored until the credits rolled and that is extremely rare for me.

I think the issue is that the mechanics are great and fluid, but they really don't do anything substantial with them. The problems are the level design and scenario planning.

 

[CatPee]

Combat is excellent. I just went back to Mass Effect 3, a game that upon release was lauded as being "nearly as good as gears". Man, so incredibly clunky and unfun compared to Tomb Raider.

ME3 is a terrible example to use as it's not even a pure 3rd-person shooter. Something like Gears or Uncharted would be better examples. I even thought Warhammer 40K: Space Marine had more fluid combat than TR.

No it wasn't, the story in FC3 was completely asinine, at least Lara went through a period of being scared and reactionary, and she didn't for some unclear reason give up on all of her friends as soon as they were safe. Far Cry 3 was ticking off the boxes the game (both in design and gameplay), much more so than Tomb Raider. Everything was a collectable, weapons, your friends, endless amounts of useless trinkets, with next to nothing to tie them together. At least Lara feigned some interest everytime you collect a new relic, because she's an archaeologist.

Never said FC3's story is good either. However, despite its flaws and such, it doesn't contain ludonarrative dissonance where the main character seems extremely bipolar. Lara is sad for all but 30 seconds after killing the deer and the man, then proceeds to kill some more, then gets afraid of climbing somewhere tall after she's already done a multitude of impossible feats.

In addition, Jason Brody's not an archaeologist. He's just a college kid with rich parents and friends. Nothing ties TR's characters together either; they're all a bunch of walking stereotypes that are there just for the sake of emulating some human emotion element, and do so poorly at best.

 

[Uno Venova]

Well I'm enjoying this so far, the first 30 minutes almost made me quit, but it get's much better. She controls very well, and her jump is insane.

 

[LiK]

Well I'm enjoying this so far, the first 30 minutes almost made me quit, but it get's much better. She controls very well, and her jump is insane.

love the jump. made platforming such a breeze

 

[Ricker]

Finished this last evening at 96%...pretty awesome game,the only parts I didnt like where the 2 rail like sections,back to back in the middle of the game(sliding down the water and the parachute)...the new Lara is cool,supporting staff where kinda dull I guess but overall,great reboot,I hope this sold close to 1 million(pretty sure it will)and hopefully there is more Tomb Raider games to come...and next time,make at least one big/puzzle/exploration Tomb please...

 

[RagnarokX]

Finished this last evening at 96%...pretty awesome game,the only parts I didnt like where the 2 rail like sections,back to back in the middle of the game(sliding down the water and the parachute)...the new Lara is cool,supporting staff where kinda dull I guess but overall,great reboot,I hope this sold close to 1 million(pretty sure it will)and hopefully there is more Tomb Raider games to come...and next time,make at least one big/puzzle/exploration Tomb please...

If they keep adding just one every game maybe they'll be back to the level they were at before the reboot after about a dozen sequels... :/

 

[I'm an expert]

Hm, was waiting for the price drop, but now the psn version of the game is some bundle with all the preorder dlc and a free copy of quantum conundrum (wtf).. all that with the $10 back doesn't make it a bad value.

 

[Conor 419]

15 mins in and the story's already pissing me off.

"Let's split up guys"

NO

 

[deim0s]

Finished this last evening at 96%...pretty awesome game,the only parts I didnt like where the 2 rail like sections,back to back in the middle of the game(sliding down the water and the parachute)...the new Lara is cool,supporting staff where kinda dull I guess but overall,great reboot,I hope this sold close to 1 million(pretty sure it will)and hopefully there is more Tomb Raider games to come...and next time,make at least one big/puzzle/exploration Tomb please...

Aside from Sam, you can really take them all out and it wouldn't affect the story at all.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

You really don't get it. The complaints here are about gameplay and the mechanics the players get to explore and the challenges they get to overcome. That's whats "average" or even "below average" here. Tomb Raider is a hodge podge of shallow systems and busy work, almost entirely cribbed from other games, at the expense of everything that made the series memorable and cherished for years, again, from a gameplay point of view.

Production values, polish and spectacle can only mask a lack of depth for so long.

Can you really not see this?

Of course I can see it, but for me it's not a problem. Calling Tomb Raider one of the most average and blandest games of the gen is still complete nonsense. If you think that you have no idea what an average or bland game is.

 

[FroJay]

Not sure how I feel about this one yet, I'm about an hour in.

 

[RagnarokX]

Of course I can see it, but for me it's not a problem. Calling Tomb Raider one of the most average and blandest games of the gen is still complete nonsense. If you think that you have no idea what an average or bland game is.

Probably because you're using a different metric. It's not "As good as the average game" it's "Average quality". Since the vast majority of games are awful they seriously skew the scale to the lower end, and the average game in that sense is probably like a 4. This game is more like a 6-7, so compared to most games it'd be above average. But I don't even play the shit games, so of what I consider worth my time it's on the low end. I'm glad I rented it. If it had a lot more interesting puzzles, tombs, and skill-based platforming and exploration it'd be higher. The quality and quantity of those things are low to average. It has a lot of combat, but it's not particularly great combat and it's not the reason I want Tomb Raider; the wave combat gets tiresome and kills the pacing, the stealth combat is more fun but less common. As I said earlier it reminds me mostly of Arkham Asylum with all of the challenge sucked out of it. Arkham Asylum was a great game.

I feel that production values are high in art direction but the amount of game here is really lacking by old standards, especially compared to previous Tomb Raiders. No I'm not asking for tank controls and tedious slow climbing. Using this game they could have made something as challenging, even more challenging, than what came before. But they didn't, they made something extremely basic and easy.

 

[spekkeh]

Never said FC3's story is good either. However, despite its flaws and such, it doesn't contain ludonarrative dissonance where the main character seems extremely bipolar.
Lara is sad for all but 30 seconds after killing the deer and the man, then proceeds to kill some more, then gets afraid of climbing somewhere tall after she's already done a multitude of impossible feats.

Jason does not seem bipol... let's agree to disagree here. Going from a hunter to a QTE bossfight is definitely ludonarrative dissonance. At least in Tomb Raider the QTEs are confined to parts where Lara is actually reactionary instead of in control (which they did great as the use of QTEs diminshed as she was taking control of the environment), that's ludonarrative consonance. At least Lara when she killed her first man reacted with "I was scared by how easy it was" (which I agree is a bit too fast, though not out of character), instead of Brody who is a scared rich kid who must learn to be a hunter, yet already is a veritable killing machine the moment he steps out of the first shack door.

 

[Jme]

Picked it up, made it to the first spot where you can fast travel and immediately went back to 100% the first area (Damn you ghost hunter totems for not showing on my treasure map!)

So far I'm really enjoying it, and it's reminding me more of Uncharted than Tomb Raider.

Tried 1 multiplayer deathmatch. Is it just me, or does the frame rate drop whenever you fire the gun? Made it pretty unplayable for me.

 

[ubersticky]

Finally reached rank 60 on MP and got the Shopaholic trophy.