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Top Education Systems in the World Ranked by Pearson / The Economist
- Thread starter Sage00
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I've had the same experience. Almost every college class I've had so far has consisted of a teacher exclusively reading off of a PowerPoint (often one provided to them by the textbook). Then all the exams are scantron multiple choice (even high level math/physics exams) with no partial credit. This is at one of the top ranked engineering schools in the country.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Absolutely not. My high school in NJ was fantastic with caring teachers and an involved staff that ensured a great experience. I believe the top ten states at education would crack the top ten if you eliminated the bottom forty. Still not much of an achievement for the United States as a whole, but making the list is a cool surprise.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
What's funny is the Conservatives, who for years have been saying Labour has shat on Britain's once great education system (lol), now will either have to disregard these findings or come out and admit Labour may have been on the right track when it came to investing in Education and encouraging more people to get into higher education.
I'm writing as someone who is currently getting a doctorate in education (in Curriculum & Instruction) and who is specifically interested in researching international efforts in education reform.
What everyone needs to know is that while PISA rankings have become ways of comparing countries' educational quality, that's a very dangerous and misleading interpretation.
Despite its name and intended goal, PISA should not be interpreted as measuring the quality of education systems, but rather countries' levels of economic inequality and poverty. Researchers have been able to successfully predict countries' PISA scores simply by accounting for the GDP per capita, the percentage of youth in the population, and the degree of inequality in the country without considering a single variable directly linked to education
If you're interested on understanding what world rankings like these really mean, and what it means for our educational system, check out my blog post on the subject here.
And if you don't want to take my word for it, read anything by David Berliner.
What everyone needs to know is that while PISA rankings have become ways of comparing countries' educational quality, that's a very dangerous and misleading interpretation.
Despite its name and intended goal, PISA should not be interpreted as measuring the quality of education systems, but rather countries' levels of economic inequality and poverty. Researchers have been able to successfully predict countries' PISA scores simply by accounting for the GDP per capita, the percentage of youth in the population, and the degree of inequality in the country without considering a single variable directly linked to education
If you're interested on understanding what world rankings like these really mean, and what it means for our educational system, check out my blog post on the subject here.
And if you don't want to take my word for it, read anything by David Berliner.
I remember reading that American children easily equal, if not exceed, the top in the world when you just look at middle-class families and above.
We have more than 20% of children in poverty. It's no surprise our scores are so low.
WonkyPanda
Member
Most of that seemed spot on. Thanks for the insight.
The one caveat I would add is that the first two years at any Undergraduate institution are pretty much uniform. The basic requirements are nearly identical across the board. Your last two years is when you are supposed to "specialize" and take the upper-division courses for your major. At this point, if you wanted to do business school, as an example, you'd probably major in something relevant (e.g. economics).
However, it's true that some graduate programs do not require a specific bachelor degree to get into. For example, law school does not require any specific type of major degree to get in to. Trying to become an MD does require a very specific science-based track of classes.
Also, with business school in the US, you typically need 1-2 years of actual, substantive work experience.
EDIT: Of course, you could always go the 'Van Wilder' route. Remember, freshman don't age.
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
I'm disappointed that they grouped the UK together. I would like to see how Scotland and England pan out individually (considering we have different education systems and all.)
You missed out the most shocking offender of most East Asian education systems: the lack of any focus on creativity or critical thinking whatsoever.
That and the cram schools of course. Seeing students finally going home at 10pm is fucked up. But knowing they'll be up until 2-4am finishing homework is even worse.
You missed out the most shocking offender of most East Asian education systems: the lack of any focus on creativity or critical thinking whatsoever.
That and the cram schools of course. Seeing students finally going home at 10pm is fucked up. But knowing they'll be up until 2-4am finishing homework is even worse.
KillerMan91
Member
So why are other Nordic countries so much behind Finland? Pretty sure that for example Norway has higher GDP per capita, even less poor people than Finland and about the same amount of young people. Still these is noticeable difference when it comes to PISA ranking.
FutureZombie
Banned
I wonder if the fact that the US probably spends more money than any other country on kids with special needs was considered in these rankings. I bet it wasn't. And those kids take all the tests we have here. I know that isn't true in other countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
2. South Korea
7. Japan
19. Finland
26. Hong Kong
2. South Korea
7. Japan
19. Finland
26. Hong Kong
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Yep... the ever-escalating competition factor when it comes to exams is just insane.
Then you have the low employment rates for graduates, even from prestigious universities. That wouldn't be as much of a problem if hiring of new graduates occurred more than once per year, but typically it doesn't. Just like the exams, if you miss your one shot, you're pretty much screwed in life.
Shouta
Member
Then they do it again several hours later. It's amazing kids hold up as well as they do sometimes.
Most of these lists are really full of fail. They fall into the same trap that schools do of trying to assess the quality of education using quantitative numbers. It's certainly valid in some respects but in the case like this? It's just messy.
Visualante2
Member
Maybe you live in a well off area? All that golden hello and recruitment drives for teachers exist because there is a shortage of math and science teachers. Let alone good ones. I don't think it's an isolated problem on my end. I welcome the new GCSE in computing, but only a third of current teachers are qualified to teach it... hopefully they're able to train enough new good ones to make it a success. And my school was fairly middle of the road, there are worse, but mostly better ones in the area (faith or grammar schools)
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
I told some of my students in Korea about what Scottish school life is like and their reaction was like their brains were having a BSoD.
"Yeah, I went home at 3.15pm every day then played soccer and video games until 8pm then watched TV and went to sleep at 10pm."
And the kicker:
"I didn't have to take any exams to go to high school. And I didn't finish high school but still went to college. And it was free."
It's kind of like the same lists that say "Korean, Japanese and Taiwanese people are the hardest workers in the world!!!1!" because they're gauging how long the workers stay in the office for - not because of any quantifiable metric of actual work done.
Leona Lewis
Banned
What a lot of people don't know is that these results are always skewed. Let me list the most important things to note...
1) Population matters. You're not comparing apples and apples when you compare a country like Finland, with a population of about that of a single mid-sized US state, and the United States, in which you have hundreds of autonomous school districts per state, each with its own Board of Education, superintendent, etc. The efficiency with which you can allocate and deploy resources in a targeted way is not a fair fight when you're serving approximately 39230423 times as many students with thinly spread resources. The new national curriculum standards are a move in the right direction, but that brings in a whole host of other issues such as effective implementation and professional development so that teachers learn about what the new standards really mean.
2) These rankings are always skewed because of the way they use test data. What you don't know is that the United States is the ONLY country in that list that tests EVERY student and publishes those results. In paragon models like Germany and Finland, students are carefully funnelled into different tracking groups, and by age 8 are already labeled as being college-bound, vocation-bound, or other. Their particular track determines whether or not they are tested. In effect, these high-ranking countries test only their Top 10% students, which skews results significantly. I don't agree with the US' emphasis on standardized testing, but at least it's not discriminatory.
So, in conclusion, these lists mean nothing. The United States has a TON of work to do to improve its schools, particularly with regards to STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) education and the ways that funding are allocated based on school performance (which means that the worst performing schools are basically given the least support), but the wrong way to solve these issues is to treat education as a one-size fits all that we need to somehow emulate.
If you're interested, seek out Dan Rather's report on what it would look like here if the United States adopted Finland's education philosophies to the letter. It's not sustainable.
1) Population matters. You're not comparing apples and apples when you compare a country like Finland, with a population of about that of a single mid-sized US state, and the United States, in which you have hundreds of autonomous school districts per state, each with its own Board of Education, superintendent, etc. The efficiency with which you can allocate and deploy resources in a targeted way is not a fair fight when you're serving approximately 39230423 times as many students with thinly spread resources. The new national curriculum standards are a move in the right direction, but that brings in a whole host of other issues such as effective implementation and professional development so that teachers learn about what the new standards really mean.
2) These rankings are always skewed because of the way they use test data. What you don't know is that the United States is the ONLY country in that list that tests EVERY student and publishes those results. In paragon models like Germany and Finland, students are carefully funnelled into different tracking groups, and by age 8 are already labeled as being college-bound, vocation-bound, or other. Their particular track determines whether or not they are tested. In effect, these high-ranking countries test only their Top 10% students, which skews results significantly. I don't agree with the US' emphasis on standardized testing, but at least it's not discriminatory.
So, in conclusion, these lists mean nothing. The United States has a TON of work to do to improve its schools, particularly with regards to STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) education and the ways that funding are allocated based on school performance (which means that the worst performing schools are basically given the least support), but the wrong way to solve these issues is to treat education as a one-size fits all that we need to somehow emulate.
If you're interested, seek out Dan Rather's report on what it would look like here if the United States adopted Finland's education philosophies to the letter. It's not sustainable.
I was all like - fuck yeah, Australia.
Then I noticed the states was on there too. Realised that it was more of a socio-economic list than it was about quality of education.
The assumptions underpinning education all around the world are basically full of fail. We need to tech up education and make it better than facebook.
Then I noticed the states was on there too. Realised that it was more of a socio-economic list than it was about quality of education.
The assumptions underpinning education all around the world are basically full of fail. We need to tech up education and make it better than facebook.
I went back to the article that cited this study but couldn't access the original data (a lot of journals have pay firewalls that even my University library access doesn't cover).
I do, however, have a more complete quote from the article I was referring to ("The Context for Interpreting PISA Results" in the USA by David Berliner). It doesn't answer your question about diversity in Nordic countries' performance directly, but it does paint a more complete picture of the point Berliner is trying to make about taking a more holistic perspective on what produces PISA performance.
No idea. We're middling to poor in a lot of significant categories compared to other highly-developed nations.
Hari Seldon
Member
Lol what??? This entire list is invalid if these top countries are doing that.
Leeroy3101
Banned
Report seems to conveniently ignore that The United States tries its best to educate all individuals from different ability levels. I'm pretty sure no other education system across the world attempts to do what we do. This is why I hate these education system rankings.
Have you not been paying attention to people in this tread?
I find it amazing we are ranked that high considering two things:
1. We are a HUGE diverse country with many states who each handle education differently. The system in say, Massachusetts is not the same as in Alabama or Mississippi.
2. As already pointed out, many of the "top" countries like Korea put almost zero emphasis on creativity and critical thinking. They just force-feed you information that you MUST memorize or you will fail. How is that "better" than other systems?
We have the best higher education in the world and college enrollment is going up. Why do you think so many people from Korea, Japan, Europe, etc come to the US to go to college?
NathanMcMahon
Banned
America #1, America #1, America... ahhhhh shit...
Leeroy3101
Banned
IIRC, U.S. universities are much easier to get into than those in their home country.
I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post but that part is a bit incorrect. Most foreign students in the US are from places like China and India...
In fact having an american diploma, even from an Ivy League school, can actually harm your employment chances in Japan and Korea... The whole recruitment system is integrated with the local universities (and another reason there's absolutely no expectaction of academic excellence there, if you're from a good uni, you get a good job, no one gives a shit about your grades or even your major)
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Canada used to be in the top 5. We're falling behind 
edit: Oh apparently we're #6 in actual knowledge learnt in class, after all the Asian countries and Finland. But we got #20 in education attainment. I wonder which province I can blame for this
edit: Oh apparently we're #6 in actual knowledge learnt in class, after all the Asian countries and Finland. But we got #20 in education attainment. I wonder which province I can blame for this
Their website has some pretty interesting info.
Take this for instance
http://thelearningcurve.pearson.com/the-report/executive-summary
http://thelearningcurve.pearson.com/the-report/getting-teachers-who-make-a-difference
Take this for instance
http://thelearningcurve.pearson.com/the-report/executive-summary
http://thelearningcurve.pearson.com/the-report/getting-teachers-who-make-a-difference
ViewtifulJC
Banned
TOP 17 BABY!
They are also much harder. At least in the case of Korea and Japan.
Have you been to UCLA or Berkley? I can assure you that the massive Asian student population on those campuses is not just Chinese students... Even my tiny university had a ton of Korean students.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Too much sex, wine, and cheese, Jerry. CHEEEEEEEEEESE!
Shouta
Member
Japanese students aren't as common in the US because of economy and some other reasons. They used to come pretty often but not as much anymore.
But frankly speaking, most of the fresh college graduates I met over in Japan were even more useless than their American counterparts. And fresh college grads in the US can be really be a useless lot.
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
While I'm not detracting from your point: American and British universities carry infinitely more prestige than schools in East Asian countries (and indeed, in any country.) If your family has money, there's a good chance you're getting shipped off to one of those schools by default.
I actually think this was the case in US a decade ago but recently there has been so many articles how bad the standars are in some subjects all around US, not just poor inner city schools. Not to mention you are selling your education system for private business, they will make things only worse.
Not to mention the private charter schools will be end of teacher unions in US, while the union does have flaws I don't think it's a good idea to give it a boot.
travisbickle
Member
From my knowledge (rich family friends through marriage) if you don't get in the top few universities in South Korea you're getting shipped to America...or Europe if your parents are a little bit cool!
computers putin'
Member
Honestly expected America to be a few spots lower, but then again I live in one of the worst performing school districts in the USA so prehaps it's skewed my view of education in the rest of the country.
Because they love student loans.
This trio of posts/avatar made my day. Stupid smile on my face. Thanks GAF..
sleeping_dragon
Banned
2. South Korea
3. Hong Kong
4. Japan
5. Singapore
Only number 2 South Korea? why not number 1? embarrasing to be an asian now.
3. Hong Kong
4. Japan
5. Singapore
Only number 2 South Korea? why not number 1? embarrasing to be an asian now.
I remember having these test and yes they don't test everyone. But they did choose our class which was way worse then the other 2. I mean i was the only one with an over 7 average (on a scale of 4-10) in our class.
The whole point of the Finnish system is to make sure no one gets left behind, not to train super students:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlYHWpRR4yc
jts
...hate me...
I'm dating a finnish exchange student, and I don't want to sound offensive because I really like her, but she's not that bright.
She's struggling so hard to keep up with our classes, failing almost every midterm so far (management btw). And I could say a lot of things but her latest was that she didn't know in which country Berlin was. I am disappoint etc.
She's struggling so hard to keep up with our classes, failing almost every midterm so far (management btw). And I could say a lot of things but her latest was that she didn't know in which country Berlin was. I am disappoint etc.
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