He just stopped responding, heh.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Touch Arcade vs. NeoGAF
- Thread starter Ignis Fatuus
- Start date
He just stopped responding, heh.
I agreed with most of the article, but honestly I laughed out loud when he said it actually made him angry that someone would suggest that. Here's what I've picked up about writing for gaming outlets from video game podcasts and NeoGAF, so correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, often games press will go out and find a story on their own, or from a tip. But a major element of what gaming publications do is offering games coverage in exchange for free games, consoles, online service subscriptions, hosted parties and events (sometimes with paid airfare and hotel rooms), and of course countless amounts of swag. I've even heard game journalists complain when they suspect an event like E3 isn't exclusively open to the press. Sometimes they'll just not bother to review a game if they don't get a free pre-release copy, which is much easier to provide now thanks to digital distribution, prominent members of the media get special accounts to services like Steam where they can download whatever games they please free of charge. So yeah it was laughable to me that he was insulted by these guys offering him a measly copy of their game and a couple pieces of swag. Maybe he would have responded better to a free trip to Las Vegas, Cali, etc like the big players at EA, UBI, Activision, and others provide.
I'd love to, but would you care?
Sure! That stuff has just been my perception of things.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
I've wrote for a handful of gaming publications and this has never happened.
Now I'm all depressed. =(
plagiarize
Banned
I got one all expenses paid trip to preview Dead Space when I was writing for Dread Central. Fortunately I loved the game, so there was no moral conflict when it came to previewing it (and reviewing it). They literally picked me up from my house and drove me to the airport.
Bony Manifesto
Member
Well exactly. The rookie mistake those guys made was offering to send swag in return for coverage of the game, when etiquette dictates they should have sent the swag without any sort of explicit proviso attached.
It only happens (and to be fair, it's happening less and less often as journos are becoming more and more irrelevant) with big huge sites/magazines. Unless you work for IGN/Gamespot/Game Informer and a few others, don't expect to ever see something like this, ever.
plagiarize
Banned
Dread Central certainly wasn't big from a gaming perspective. EA really worked hard to establish that IP I guess.
I don't think you understand how many outlets work.
Can't get a game pre release? That means you can't get a review out at launch which is where 90%+ of the hits for that article will come. Usually if you can't get a review within a day or 2 of launch if will be ignored.
Trips/hotels? Yes because flying to hawwaii and then sitting inside with games and writing 10 hours a day and being taunted by the beautiful beach I can't get to sounds fucking amazing.
Also there are not that many steam press accounts. Many outlets have maybe one or two people with one at most.
So after a conversation on twitter with Ben, He said he wrote the article because of the harrassment of Hodapp's Parents via a post that gave the contact information of Hodapp (Which I honestly don't remember seeing or hearing about till this Article).
I respect that he responded, I don't respect with how he handled the criticisms to his Article.
I respect that he responded, I don't respect with how he handled the criticisms to his Article.
Agreed.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Kuchera really is terrible. I like how he's let his distaste of Kickstarter colour his opinion to such a point where he'd side with shitheel Hodapp in an article.
2012 is definitively the year Penny Arcade shit the bed with The PA Report and their own Kickstarter.
Is it even true that Hodapp "photoshopped lots of Wii boxes together" and then made up a story to go alongside them? That sounds like such a "whoops, been caught: COMMENCE ILLOGICAL WIGGLE ROUTINE" scenario.
2012 is definitively the year Penny Arcade shit the bed with The PA Report and their own Kickstarter.
Is it even true that Hodapp "photoshopped lots of Wii boxes together" and then made up a story to go alongside them? That sounds like such a "whoops, been caught: COMMENCE ILLOGICAL WIGGLE ROUTINE" scenario.
That part confused me too.
Especially when you look at what the $125 Tier gets you which is a shirt hoodie and poster(and a copy of the game+DLC).
Free T-shirts is bribing?
These are two different things. There are loads of Steam press accounts because at some point Valve decided to give them away to the staff of a whole bunch of Half-Life 2 fan sites. That's not the same thing as there being too few within an outlet.
EDIT: Once again, was his personal information ever shared in this thread? That seems like the deal breaker here.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
"Fortunately"? Are you sure being pampered by EA didn't cause you to love the game instead of merely liking it? That's the gray area in the moral issue at hand here, not doing a 180 in opinion because of swag.
You do it.
I'm drunk, only read the neogaf part of the article :<
Or he actually did what he posted but since it's been brought to light, he wants to make it seem like it was faked.
I don't know which is to believe but he certainly hasn't earned the trust.
Wrestlemania
Banned
How on earth would he recreate those photos exactly?
I never said he did but all I said is that he is saying that he faked them to troll.
I'm not sure if you realize this, but most major outlets get shit on if they are releasing reviews for games "late". So, at that point, you really have one option: If we want to review X game, we need to get that game from the publisher/developer before release. If you don't, it's kind of impossible to have a review done in time for the game's launch.
On a personal level, I havedepending on the gameasked for a retail copy of game that I reviewed if I liked it. I typically ask for this after my review is done, and in the case that the copy I was given to do my review wasn't a retail copy (which happens when publishers get their retail copies early enough to be usable for a review). If anybody wants to look down on me for doing that, that's fine.
Media outlets and freelancers will often ask for debug versions of consolesbecause otherwise, you're never going to be able to play pre-release games for preview/review purposes. At that point, you might have a few consoles for office needs, but typically people aren't just getting free debug consoles for their personal home use. (Freelancers with enough clout are the exception.)
I personally have never known anybody who has gotten a retail system from a company simply by being media, with the exception of that one E3 where Microsoft gave everybody at the press conference an Xbox 360 Slim when they were new.
The one retail console I've received for free due to being media was a DSi. We got an office one when I was working for Play, and given I was the person to do a majority of the DS reviews, I just kind of ended up with it after we'd talked about its new features.
Every year of Xbox Live that I've had I've paid for myself. I did get a free year of PS+ from this year's E3, as everybody at the press conference received that. I do believe some in the media do end up with free Xbox Live subscriptions, but you also have to understand that that can help in the process of doing reviews.
Parties are going to exist no matter if you're giving somebody coverage or not. If you get invited to one or not depends on how big of an outlet you are. I have never been in any situation where game coverage in print/online/whatever was exchanged for any sort of party invite.
I've been to a number of events that were held for showing off games. Given the fact that media groups may not have the budget to fly people out to every event that's going on, there are absolutely times when it could be a "we need airfare/hotel paid for or we can't cover the event" type of situation. That's less some sort of behind-closed-doors trade, and more a simple fact of budget.
People really, really over-estimate the amount to which swag is a part of this business. Do we get stuff sometimes as promotional items? Surebut most of the time it's some interesting marketing item we get, and in no way something we'd to any degree based our coverage around the reception of (unless, of course, the coverage we're talking about is directly tied to that swag, as we can't cover what we don't have).
Personally, just like retail games, I have at times specifically asked for something that was swag. At E3, I asked Atlus for one of the Persona 4 t-shirts that they were giving out. My actually asking for a particular piece of swag isn't a common occurrence, and if I don't get it, I'm usually not heartbroken.
Yes, because when you're going to an event because it's your job, it can be annoying when people are there just for fun and they get in the way of doing your job. Sorry if that makes me sound like an elitist.
StopMakingSense
Member
He used a tripod. Took several photos moving the box. Photoshopped the photos together. It's pretty basic.
Like this?:
Here's one done by photographer Stefan Babel.
There was a good one of another guy probably thousands of times in an opera house, but I can't find it.
I remember when he was bragging about trolling people on SA with that Wii picture in a Mac IRC channel we were both in. I always assumed his trolling days would come to haunt him when Touch Arcade starting becoming big, so I guess this is that moment.
I also remember when he lived in Naperville Illinois he managed to get neighbors to make "SHUT YER YAP HODAPP" shirts after he made a noise complaint. It was a point of pride that he trolled people to the point making a shirt. http://blogs.suburbanchicagonews.com/newsblog/2007/08/downtown_noise_plot_thickens.html
If he didn't have a successful iOS gaming site at stake I'd say this whole thing might be his best troll yet.
Wrestlemania
Banned
You misunderstand - I get how he made the final picture. I meant that the fact he clearly made that composite image is proof enough that his original SA post was a troll.
Honestly, if I was one of the "journalists" who received an offer of a "bribe" (like with Epic Skater) the ethical thing wouldn't have been to write up an article slagging off what had been done, but engage in some kind of communication that'd result in *actual* journalism without a reward... unless that reward is glowing in the knowledge that you've provided your gaming public with an informative article about an up-and-coming project.
Or you can just roll with this "holier than thou" vibe. Whatever floats your boat.
PS. I love how this is considering "express(ing) skepticism of the viability of the Republique Kickstarter":
Yeah, real mature.
The rest of the article about Hodapp just comes across as some giant gaming "journalist" VIP pity party. Thank fuck there's still a sliver of maturity and ethics left in that corner of the industry... just a shame I have to wade through so much shit to get to it.
Ugh, I have no idea why this is getting to me so much. Gaming journalism is fucked.
Or you can just roll with this "holier than thou" vibe. Whatever floats your boat.
PS. I love how this is considering "express(ing) skepticism of the viability of the Republique Kickstarter":
Yeah, real mature.
The rest of the article about Hodapp just comes across as some giant gaming "journalist" VIP pity party. Thank fuck there's still a sliver of maturity and ethics left in that corner of the industry... just a shame I have to wade through so much shit to get to it.
Ugh, I have no idea why this is getting to me so much. Gaming journalism is fucked.
Wow, they painted him as the victim huh?
Ah well, I've since avoided Touch Arcade and have been happier for it. If anything, it has kept me from wasting money on iOS games which never hold my attention anyways. If I need such news I simply read Slidetoplay instead.
Ah well, I've since avoided Touch Arcade and have been happier for it. If anything, it has kept me from wasting money on iOS games which never hold my attention anyways. If I need such news I simply read Slidetoplay instead.
Haunted
Member
That's exactly what I was thinking. Reminds me of this:
The terrible TouchArcade paragraph in that article was just icing. C'mon Kuchera.
Funny how Hodapp will slag off the entire Kickstarter concept......but the outlet he goes to to cry about harassment is the website that is the most guilty of shameless Kickstarter panhandling/abuse.
I'd honestly love to hear what he has to say about Penny Arcade's "Give us half a million dollars so we can take down a couple ads and make a 6 page comic book" Kickstarter project.
I'd honestly love to hear what he has to say about Penny Arcade's "Give us half a million dollars so we can take down a couple ads and make a 6 page comic book" Kickstarter project.
Great read, thanks a lot for the insight into the whys and hows of this stuff. I guess while the free stuff is nice, it's also integral to getting your job done as best as possible.
I still feel it was unfortunate that Kuchera decided call out the organizers of the Kickstarter for not being as subtle and savvy as professional PR agencies. He could have just politely replied with "Hi, usually the way this works is you just send the free stuff and we'll decide on our own if it's worth covering, thanks and we appreciate your generosity." and left it at that.
Maybe if Kuchera was being told he needed to say the game was "10/10" or the greatest thing he's laid eyes on then I could understand making a big stink. It'd be wrong for them to try and dictate what his opinion should be. But all they were asking for was to simply be considered for any sort of coverage, albeit in a somewhat clumsy, backwards manner.
You can see why he didn't, though. Accepting gifts from the companies that you cover is already extremely unethical, and you can't just admit that's how these things are done to newcomers are being brought into the game by Kickstarter.
Instead, it's easy to commence the anger and pearl clutching when an inexperienced dev crosses the extremely blurry lines that you've established for yourselves.
What Kuchera doesn't really mention is his piece is that, with regard to developer handouts, any ethical dilemma is purely on the part of the games writer. There is nothing in the developers' job description that says they can't try and drum up publicity. They're not professing to be part of any fourth estate. Good on Ben for not taking the offer, but I don't see why this is newsworthy.
I know almost nothing about him, but based on this article, I feel like Kunchera's anger on the issue might stem from an insecurity within himself. Specifically I wonder if he has an image of himself as a journalist but lacks the moral courage to turn down most gifts? As a result, he might feel a pressing need to defend his ethical stance because he himself is worried about how close to "advertising" his job really is.
An interesting point.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Sounds a lot like SA or 4chan's MO than GAF's, but hey, whats fact checking.
I am still under the impression he took toucharcade's word for it because I still haven't seen any proof that it was ever posted here.
toythatkills
Member
Games journalism!!!
I would seriously hope no one would personally attack Eli and especially not his family, but to have opinions about his public persona which he chooses to put out there is perfectly fair.
The article definitely read strange to me, sorta reminded me of the polygon stuff in a way, like there's this misconception about how they are perceived vs how they view themselves. Also, the common trend of being condescending on twitter is not helping.
The article definitely read strange to me, sorta reminded me of the polygon stuff in a way, like there's this misconception about how they are perceived vs how they view themselves. Also, the common trend of being condescending on twitter is not helping.
toythatkills
Member
It's not a job but yeah, I do, and yeah, I do.
Or at least, I'm definitely there as an element of a game's marketing. When I review a good game and I rave about it, it's because I want people to buy it and play it. What is that if not advertising? Obviously I'm not being paid specifically to say that the game's good, but I'm clearly "advertising" the game. Game publishers see it that way or they wouldn't provide games for review, the only people who don't are "journalists" who want to think that what they do isn't PR when it basically is.
Of course, I review plenty of shit games as well but even then my role is still the same. I don't have any delusions of grandeur. I'm there because the publisher wants people to know about the game, that's it.
Go to any game website you like and all the news on it will have been provided by publishers. New trailers, new release dates, new games being announced, new features, whatever. It's not journalism, it's marketing. The publishers have something they want the press to write about, and the press writes it, and about 99% of the time that's all they do. Hey, it works and it's fine, but they shouldn't pretend they're something they're not.
I'm not even sure the whole family threat thing came from GAF
Perhaps "publicity" is a more appropriate word. The request in the KS was asking for publicity, not advertising. So even though there's a fine line between marketing, advertising and publicity, there definitely is a difference.
PS. The only reference I could find in that article that accurately pointed to GAF becoming threatening was where some dude posted that he'd call the number on TA's website (or something). Pretty vague.