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Trump triumphant: 'We're going to go a lot higher' than 4.1% GDP growth
- Thread starter TheLaughingStock
- Start date
I disagree, our economy isn't strong enough at this point to stir up trade wars. It's literally the same mistake Obama made, just on the opposite side.
When Obama took office, the economy recovered 5% growth. Obama figured the economy was strong enough to take on something like Obama care and and it caused economic stagnation for businesses. Trump sees these gains which naturally occur and thinks, " I fixed the economy, I can make any rules I want". That's the problem, stop throwing wrenches into the US economy and let the wounds heal before you stir the pot again. Trade Wars are just one example of what you don't throw at a recovering economy.
Darias
Member
I'm curious about your statement because within the last six weeks I believe I heard almost this exact point of view while listening to NPR. I believe they were interviewing *someone* who said something along the lines of "regardless of how you feel about other things with regards to Mr. Trump, the fact of the matter is that the rest of the world cannot perform without being involved with the US economy; it's simply too big. So, for the President to enact more protective trade policies, regardless of the other outcomes, there are countries and sectors that will have no choice but to comply. "
I'm sorry, but that is a really poor anaolgy.
I'd like to know why you feel that's a poor analogy.
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Darias
Member
I'd phrase it more as - I'd like to know why you feel that's a poor analogy.
Fair enough, and done for the sake of civility.
Darias
Member
I mean, I am not by any stretch an economist, but I think it's fair to assume that any additional tariffs will have to have a cooling effect *somewhere*; right? So, isn't more the question - by the end, who will enact what tariffs and retaliatory tariffs, and after all the dust settles, how much economic slowdown will the U.S. end up absorbing (and by extension every other country as well) and how will the balance sheet of gains and losses tally up?
I suppose that's the BIG QUESTION, isn't it?
I suppose that's the BIG QUESTION, isn't it?
Obamacare =/= tariffs.
They're both essentially taxes on the American people and businesses which funnels more money into the government.
The analogy is fitting.
That's exactly the point! Economic instability always has a cost, its just whether our growth will outpace it.
Yes, the key right now in getting investments. You get investments if you raise the interest rate because people are going to want to invest at the higher rates, banks will lend, etc.
When you do that you cool consumer spending, cars and house, credit cards cost more due to the increased rate.
Increasing or levying tariffs, increases costs of goods to Americans. Meaning increasing cost, and then increasing the interest rate on top of that would be a sure way to stall the economy. However the continued failure to increase interest rates also stalls general investments, further talks of trade wars makes investors nervous in an economy where they are already not guaranteed much return. That way to resolve this should be a balanced approach. Keep prices for consumers cheap and raise interest rates, or fight your trade war and keep interest rates low and suck up the loss of investment in the near term.
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Joe T.
Member
I don't know about that, Trump seems to be handling this rather well so far. That $12B relief for farmers looks like a quick admission that short term sacrifices have to be made and he's got their backs. He seems to be on the right track with the EU, has been making claims that talks with Mexico are going well and I don't see how Trudeau can possibly win this game of chicken. Analysts are predicting the Canadian economy will be in recession in a little over a year's time if auto tariffs go into play, right before the 2019 federal election. The conservative party here is probably salivating all over itself at the idea of that happening.
China's the big question mark, how that plays out will likely wind up having a big influence on the 2020 election. The US will be on much stronger footing if Trump can somehow manage to secure a favorable trade deal there. I'll be extremely impressed if he can pull it off because that's no easy task, but it seems the light he's shined on the matter is starting to deliver dividends as the mainstream media is reporting on cases of stolen IP from America by the Chinese (NBC News: "How a Chinese student allegedly stole Duke University tech to create a billion dollar empire") - if that gains any traction the court of public opinion will start to better understand what Trump's been complaining about and China will lose any sympathy it may have in this particular dispute.
Except where is that 12 Billion coming from??? We just cut a trillion in taxes remember?
His verbal deal with the EU is the essentially the same as TPP. Which the effects of which would have kicked in in 2030. Right now he's pulled out and negotiating the same deal that was already made. Is it possible he will get a better deal? Sure, but we could also end up with the same exact deal of tariff cuts and such and his people will claim any economic losses we incurred in a trade war were to get us to that point while being wholly ignorant to the fact that this was part of TPP.
Everything I've seen of Mexico and Canada looks like appeasement, just like the EU and all global leaders look to be playing hard ball then they realistically should given our economic power. The entire argument is that if TPP didn't happen, China would pursue agreements of their own which is what is already happening. China, in my opinion will out last Trump in this war and we may end up with trade deals which do not protect our IP as well as TPP which is my fear. I'm all about IP protections and believed something needed to be done, that why I'm against a trade war on physical goods because the use is a net exporter of services, not goods. Trade wars on goods do nothing for our future as IP based economy.
There's always a chance this could all pan out, just like there is a chance mana could rain from heaven. What he is doing is incredibly risky and the actual gains, even in the best case scenarios do not seem to be worth the risk we are incurring.
Investors are in a state of flux right now due to trade wars and shifting policies.
No interest rate increase, but talk of it all over the place.
Pulling out of TPP to negiotiate a similar deal which may or may not be better.
All of this isn't worth the risk long term if we a country are evolving from manufacturing to services anyway. The real question is in the end, even in the best case scenario was it worth it for the instability we caused even as our economy shift from its present to a future state.
Joe T.
Member
The Commodity Credit Corporation which can apparently borrow up to $30 billion at a time from the Treasury Department. Reuters has a brief "Factbox" piece on it here.
It is indeed risky, especially with his blunt, blusterous speaking/typing style (thanks again, Twitter), but it's not like we can turn back time and vote in a new president, have to make due with what we have as best we can. It's in America's best interest that he succeeds here regardless of which political party you happen to support.
TheLaughingStock
Member
Why is that? What's good for the stock market and what's good for the avg Joe often diverges...
They're worried about the US economy being too good in the future i.e. too many people having a job and getting a raise. Some of them are worried about the "trade war" too but hopefully the folks at Goldman Sachs and other places are explaining why most models say the macro impact is overblown and fear mongering worst-case.
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Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
This. A company laying off workers for example is usually a good sign to investors. Less expense.
mustardman
Banned
GDP growth isn't a great measure without looking at the underlying figures and if you care about long term cause and effect as well as wealth distribution. Any 3rd year economics student can tell you that.
Again this isn't fake news, the economy is certainly growing at a decent pace nationally, and we are now far enough into the Trump presidency where he should get credit for whatever is happening. Generally it takes 16months- 2yrs for the real economic trends of an adminstration to take effect, outside of major legislation(bank bailouts for example).
Again, GDP is just the growth in value of the economy at large. Primarily the growth is coming in the form of corporate profitability and stock market buybacks from the tax legislation. Very little of this growth has gone to the working and middle class. It's generally understood that trump is exasperating the creation of 3 economic bubbles ( household debt, corporate future market confidence , student debt)
Again this isn't fake news, the economy is certainly growing at a decent pace nationally, and we are now far enough into the Trump presidency where he should get credit for whatever is happening. Generally it takes 16months- 2yrs for the real economic trends of an adminstration to take effect, outside of major legislation(bank bailouts for example).
Again, GDP is just the growth in value of the economy at large. Primarily the growth is coming in the form of corporate profitability and stock market buybacks from the tax legislation. Very little of this growth has gone to the working and middle class. It's generally understood that trump is exasperating the creation of 3 economic bubbles ( household debt, corporate future market confidence , student debt)
TheLaughingStock
Member
I don't see why you're poo pooing this advance estimate of growth in light of other evidence.
Under Trump's leadership, the economy is doing well broadly. More blacks, more hispanics, more women, and so on are seeing benefits as the US economy grows.
Under the leadership of Obama, the Democrats, and the establishment GOP, it was mainly rich whites taking a huge slice of the pie as the US economy grew. It was mainly corporate profits soaring. You may have seen some libs and NeverTrump conservatives try to spin this number saying GDP growth was higher under Obama, but the truth is there's a difference between now and then. The difference is the forgotten men and women weren't feeling it. Things have changed a lot to the point more people are getting their slice. Investors are winning big. The little man has more leverage. Many people received the boot once swamp was drained in 2017 and the results speaks for itself.
Look at 4.1% in this context. Things are going so well that the govt's bank is trying to slow the economy down. Investors are mad that soon too many Americans will have a job. Soon too many Americans will receive good pay. Critics are upset that Pres. Trump is standing up to mercantilism practiced by America's competitors and saying he'll cause the economy to collapse. Like Trump or hate Trump, the people who said his tax cuts would cause a recession or his election would be a catastrophe for the economy have been dead wrong to this point. Way off.
Under Trump's leadership, the economy is doing well broadly. More blacks, more hispanics, more women, and so on are seeing benefits as the US economy grows.
Under the leadership of Obama, the Democrats, and the establishment GOP, it was mainly rich whites taking a huge slice of the pie as the US economy grew. It was mainly corporate profits soaring. You may have seen some libs and NeverTrump conservatives try to spin this number saying GDP growth was higher under Obama, but the truth is there's a difference between now and then. The difference is the forgotten men and women weren't feeling it. Things have changed a lot to the point more people are getting their slice. Investors are winning big. The little man has more leverage. Many people received the boot once swamp was drained in 2017 and the results speaks for itself.
Look at 4.1% in this context. Things are going so well that the govt's bank is trying to slow the economy down. Investors are mad that soon too many Americans will have a job. Soon too many Americans will receive good pay. Critics are upset that Pres. Trump is standing up to mercantilism practiced by America's competitors and saying he'll cause the economy to collapse. Like Trump or hate Trump, the people who said his tax cuts would cause a recession or his election would be a catastrophe for the economy have been dead wrong to this point. Way off.
Cauliflower of Love
Banned
The US could reach a much greater rate than that if they properly invested in itself.
The problem here is that trump & co want to reach this gdp under the guise of giving away to pay back debts.
In a normal non corrupt administration, a 4.1 GDP would entail massive investments into infrastructure, tech, health, straight stimulus. (all of which as STILL doable today).
I have zero faith in the operatives in congress moving on this, but having congress and the whitehouse in control, they could do something, if they wanted to.
Shame about all of them being compromised and their self preservation is more important than the good of the country they were elected to do.
But I digress.
The problem here is that trump & co want to reach this gdp under the guise of giving away to pay back debts.
In a normal non corrupt administration, a 4.1 GDP would entail massive investments into infrastructure, tech, health, straight stimulus. (all of which as STILL doable today).
I have zero faith in the operatives in congress moving on this, but having congress and the whitehouse in control, they could do something, if they wanted to.
Shame about all of them being compromised and their self preservation is more important than the good of the country they were elected to do.
But I digress.
Grey Specter
Neo Member
Are you implying that what you did was intelligent?
Cauliflower of Love
Banned
what's pdq?
Chairman Tickles
Banned
This GDP growth is largely on the back of the stock market, market capitalization of US multinationals has been stimulated by tax reforms and by news that the Us government is seeking to create favourable trade conditions for Us firms. This may drive growth for another year or two and provide a hefty annual growth figure. But eventually (i.e very soon) there will be a ceiling, tariff pressures will kick in and growth will normalize again to the decades long average of ~2%.
US government has little direct opportunity for this, the US is not a State Capitalist single party state like China. The Us economy has relied on its corporations investing at home. As they grow a little more, you may see some increased investment domestically. You may also see Chinese and European firms move some of their key US directed operations into the US itself to sidestep tariffs.
Despite growth, since it is concentrated in the corporate sector, the average salary will continue to stagnate. This will stay true even if unemployment continues to plummet-it just means more people are settling for more shitty jobs. Like I said if a Chinese multinational is going to open a prefab steel truss factory in the US, it's not going to pay the workers very much. Certainly at or close to minimum wage.
US government has little direct opportunity for this, the US is not a State Capitalist single party state like China. The Us economy has relied on its corporations investing at home. As they grow a little more, you may see some increased investment domestically. You may also see Chinese and European firms move some of their key US directed operations into the US itself to sidestep tariffs.
Despite growth, since it is concentrated in the corporate sector, the average salary will continue to stagnate. This will stay true even if unemployment continues to plummet-it just means more people are settling for more shitty jobs. Like I said if a Chinese multinational is going to open a prefab steel truss factory in the US, it's not going to pay the workers very much. Certainly at or close to minimum wage.
Cauliflower of Love
Banned
oh shit the smart guy showed up. Why are you spreading the lie that the little opportunity for this?
The US is not a state capitalist. However, as of this moment, the US is still in control of monetary value across the world through it's consumerism.
The US has the upper hand as of today to put a stand still to the growing china market.
trump & co sure as shit are making sure to minimize it. Giving inches an inches to the energy market helmed by russia.
The US can pay workers $20 an hour for manual labour, right now. They can dump trillions into self sustaining energy, right now.
It would simultaneously help the lower class of people in the US and recover the grounds being lost.
The US funds billions of dollars on fucking corn that is killing people. Give me a fucking break that they can't create industries to help people.
Chairman Tickles
Banned
Yeh but dat debt tho. dumping trillion into renewable won't help that $23 trillion debt shrink, it will make it repiadly grow. And no the US can't manipulate the value of its currency overtly, or everybody would dump the dollar and the primary source of US interest on debt repayment (i.e selling bonds) would vanish. i.e the Us dollar stays stable and is the primary global reserve BECAUSE nobody gets tricksy with it. The second they do, Us dollar collapses. Suddenly noobdy wants to buy Us debt bonds. suddenly US can't even repay interest on debt. Suddenly bankruptcy and total financial collapse.
CHYNA has more options, because it first developed its economic backbone domestically (eg its state pillar champion industries as they call them) THEN started moving their activity abroad to get a share of the yummy globalist wage leverage pie. US multinationals (i.e the Us economic backbone) built their wealth and power abroad from the outset. The power base of Apple Corp for example, america's most valuable company and a thicc employer is in...wait for it....China. 60% of Apple revenue and 80% of Apple related manufacturing is in CHYNA. While Ali Baba, a $500 billion company, does most of its business in China, and 100% of its manufacturing there. It is only now expanding abroad.
Long story short, China has a thicker economic backbone. It would as 40% of the global manufacturing base and the world's largest consumer market is there, within its borders.
So no, the US is not in control of the consumer market. It's simply one of the big three, alongside China and the Eurozone.
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Cauliflower of Love
Banned
"debt" Come on.
We're talking about the power of the US and the monetary value of it.
.....
We're talking about the power of the US and the monetary value of it.
.....
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Chairman Tickles
Banned
Economic power is defined by wealth creation - debt creation. That equals investment capacity and that investment as you suggest leads to growth, acquisitions and opportunity. Something China has been doing rapidly.
China creates more wealth annually than the US ($1.2 trillion equivalent vs $700 billion) , has a positive current account balance (i.e the central federal level government does not owe money, it sits on a $3 trillion piggy bank and monthly trade surpluses), is the world's biggest trade power with the most trade links and avenues for direct investment and is naturally investing in all manner of things on a record scale. Something the US federal government can't do. Not domestically and not abroad.
US multinationals can invest, but they won't do it domestically because why pay $20 to US workers if the can pay Bangladeshis $2. And why invest in renewables when oil and gas is more lucrative short term. Us is not state capitalist it's an undirected economy, it's corporations pay no homage to the Us people and government, but to the prospect of profit. Chinese state run and state affiliated companies will invest even if they lose money in the short or medium term, just so they control the state grid infrastructure in south Australia for example. That provides political leverage. Or just so that every city is connected by high speed rail (not a single yuan has been earned by any company engaged in HSR expansion, because the money is being earned elsewhere, eg by stimulating economic growth between connected cities.)
Us government can't manipulate its economy in such direct ways.
China creates more wealth annually than the US ($1.2 trillion equivalent vs $700 billion) , has a positive current account balance (i.e the central federal level government does not owe money, it sits on a $3 trillion piggy bank and monthly trade surpluses), is the world's biggest trade power with the most trade links and avenues for direct investment and is naturally investing in all manner of things on a record scale. Something the US federal government can't do. Not domestically and not abroad.
US multinationals can invest, but they won't do it domestically because why pay $20 to US workers if the can pay Bangladeshis $2. And why invest in renewables when oil and gas is more lucrative short term. Us is not state capitalist it's an undirected economy, it's corporations pay no homage to the Us people and government, but to the prospect of profit. Chinese state run and state affiliated companies will invest even if they lose money in the short or medium term, just so they control the state grid infrastructure in south Australia for example. That provides political leverage. Or just so that every city is connected by high speed rail (not a single yuan has been earned by any company engaged in HSR expansion, because the money is being earned elsewhere, eg by stimulating economic growth between connected cities.)
Us government can't manipulate its economy in such direct ways.
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TheLaughingStock
Member
It's not Pres. Trump's fault the US doesn't invest in infrastructure, innovative technology, or a more efficient health care system. He covered trying to do some of that during his campaign.
The problem is a lot of people say the US is broke. Therefore, important things don't get done. The US can't afford to grow at a much greater rate according to this crowd.
In truth, I've never seen that chorus of Americans stay consistent in the face of an annual defense bill, a natural disaster bill or a bank bailout because the US gov't is out of money. Every time the US does something that contradicts the idea that the US is broke or bankrolled by a foreign country these people are quiet or hyperventilating about when the house of cards will come down. I think it's clear to me they want the gov't to do some things and not others, but I'll let other people decide if their concern is sincere.
In any event, I guarantee you the Democrats won't come up with much without saying they must raise taxes on the rich to pay for it. They know it's a poison pill and rich folks aren't dumb enough to prefer less money in their pocket.
Why should the gov't raise my taxes to pay for something you want? When I want something, I don't ask the gov't to raise someone else's taxes or gut their welfare in exchange. I just lobby for them to do something for me. Think about Trump's tax cuts and how it was framed.
Do you really think people could get so rich if they needed to raise taxes on the poor everytime they wanted something? It's just preferential treatment over time. Learn how to play the game.
Cauliflower of Love
Banned
China, has only been able to do this rapidly on the scale they have instead of the US because the shitheads in the states haven't capitalized.
When the US did the trillion dollar ARRA, china was knee deep in killing their citizens through pollution because the petrol industry was economically viable.
You keep going back to private multinationals investments. I'm talking about federally funded investments geared toward energy production that private entities can take advantage of.
Something that china realized, and is implementing as state owned investments instead.
The US can literally influence and invest the economy direct way. If republicans would get out of the way.
And yes, I'm laying the blame and responsibility on the US not being on the forefront of energy independence on the republicans across the spectrum.
Yes, the US government can "manipulate" it's economy. It's it's god damn duty to do it.
When the US did the trillion dollar ARRA, china was knee deep in killing their citizens through pollution because the petrol industry was economically viable.
You keep going back to private multinationals investments. I'm talking about federally funded investments geared toward energy production that private entities can take advantage of.
Something that china realized, and is implementing as state owned investments instead.
The US can literally influence and invest the economy direct way. If republicans would get out of the way.
And yes, I'm laying the blame and responsibility on the US not being on the forefront of energy independence on the republicans across the spectrum.
Yes, the US government can "manipulate" it's economy. It's it's god damn duty to do it.
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Death Dealer
Member
I've seen the stats. Granted, he didn't take us through a great depression. I cut him a lot of slack when he first came in. FYI, I voted for him. But his average GPA expansion over both 4 year terms was not good. That's why like I said, Obama was the first president, I believe since they started tracking it, to not hit an annual 3% GDP growth. The economy was not one of his pet issues.
To keep up with immigration, the economy needs to grow at the same rate as the population increase, to stay even in quality of life. So below 3% average over an 8 year presidency is below par. It's a little too early to make a bet worthy prediction with the long term economy, but I think we're going to see several quarters of at least 4% GDP growth, hit an average of 4% or more for the majority of his years in office.
With Trump in office, I'm a bull. If he can keep the economy strong and continuing enforcing illegal immigration laws, the wages will rise faster. Especially for the poor working classes.
The possibilities over two terms are almost unlimited. I'd like to see weapons sales increase. Specifically we should be arming Taiwan to the teeth. A new trade deal with Taiwan would be smart.
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Spheyr
Banned
Pretty damn quick
mustardman
Banned
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
HAHA I knew it was too good to be true - Trump just got fact checked the dirty liar!!
Now that is some PolitiSalt.
down 2 orth
Member
Trump's trade wars are going to prove very advantageous to America in the long term, especially with China.
Why? Because China is highly dependent on trade in general, and especially with the United States. Some journalists were ridiculing the tiny fraction of a percentile that the effect would have on the Chinese economy, but they were being disingenuous. The Chinese economy is built on a house of cards. All the books in country, from small businesses and personal finances, to the national government are cooked, and corruption still reigns supreme despite Xi Jinping's efforts. On top of that, government leaders depend on a strong economy for their own political stability. A tiny fraction of a percentile has major consequences for China's economy and Trump's advisors understand that well.
Since China is in an overwhelmingly advantageous position in its trade relationship with the US, it makes a lot of sense to play hardball with them. Trump's government is going to come out on top, and people in this forum should understand or stop pretending that this is not better for the United States in the long term. The only question is how much of Trump's efforts are intended to give favorable circumstances to the companies that support him (especially banks), and how much is to improve the US economy...
Why? Because China is highly dependent on trade in general, and especially with the United States. Some journalists were ridiculing the tiny fraction of a percentile that the effect would have on the Chinese economy, but they were being disingenuous. The Chinese economy is built on a house of cards. All the books in country, from small businesses and personal finances, to the national government are cooked, and corruption still reigns supreme despite Xi Jinping's efforts. On top of that, government leaders depend on a strong economy for their own political stability. A tiny fraction of a percentile has major consequences for China's economy and Trump's advisors understand that well.
Since China is in an overwhelmingly advantageous position in its trade relationship with the US, it makes a lot of sense to play hardball with them. Trump's government is going to come out on top, and people in this forum should understand or stop pretending that this is not better for the United States in the long term. The only question is how much of Trump's efforts are intended to give favorable circumstances to the companies that support him (especially banks), and how much is to improve the US economy...
Calling someone smarter than you “idiot” isn’t a good look.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
The guy can't even send 3 tweets in a row without misspelling a word and can't give a speech without reading it directly off the piece of paper in front of him.
But yeah the guy is CLEARLY intelligent right? lol
Panda1
Banned
Spelling and grammar is not a sign of intelligence or else you would be considered smart.
Panda1
Banned
Exactly he is so dumb he has made the economy rise when he is trying to crash it. He is such a fucking idiot he cant even kill blacks and jews as the racist anti-semite he is!! he has not even build any concentration camps yet the fucking incompetent idiot - how is he gonna gas the jews ?
He cant even manage to create more wars! the dumb fuck is talking about peace with North Korea! what a cuck!
And the best is - he is such a retard he is gonna lose the net election by a LANDSLIDE!
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Man, Trump's defense force gets triggered easily.
Alright, let's go by this trainwreck of a post point by point.
Trump hasn't actually done much that has *direct* impact on the economy so it's pretty much going at the same pace it was during the last handful of years during Obama's presidency. Tariffs will probably affect it, but not in the short-term and only really if they keep up with it.
I honestly don't you know what the hell you're talking about black people and Jews, but I'm guessing you've been on Tumblr too much again. Also, the camps with children at the border make this a bit of an awkward point to make.
I will give Trump credit for his meeting with No- NEVER, EVER THREATEN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN OR YOU WILL SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE. WE ARE NO LONGER A COUNTRY THAT WILL STAND FOR YOUR DEMENTED WORDS OF VIOLENCE & DEATH. BE CAUTIOUS!
We'll see about the elections I guess.
Panda1
Banned
You dont know Trump and his supporters are called racist sexist bigots? BULL FUCKING SHIT. Just look no further than this forum or
Nobody_Important
posts!
You are being selectively blind. Trump was meant to TANK the economy - TANK it there should be a complete recession or depression.
Trump is being called Nazi in mainstream media and award shows! Punch a Nazi in the face style. This is not a fringe argument - its your mainstream argument he is a racist and sexist anti-semite. Using Google will show this is a mainstream view.
Now you have to wind it back to not look mentally unhinged. Its amazing shows like Secular Report and Kimmy Dore are now all telling you Russia is bullshit and to look at the real issues! PMSL!
LOL about we will see about the elections. Please tell us your stance on predictions previously? You got the economy tanking, concentration camp, creating a nuclear holocaust COMPLETELY wrong not even a hint of maybe or might.
When people on both sides try to be reasonable they are called Nazi etc, helll on this forum its ok to call whole groups of people derogatory terms but not another (sound like discrimination lol)
Any way you can sleep soundly knowing he will be impeached and then put in prison for treason by colluding with Russia to buy Facebook ads and Revealing the DNC had been bought and cheated Bernie!! You must be soo happy that day is coming soon!
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Panda1
Banned
Hey buddy, I think youre confusing me with someone else.I never said any of those things
Well your musing were no real points so i guess you can ignore it!