Support NeoGAF

[Mlatador]

Every current standard was once a potential gimmick.

Those motion control gimmicks by the way, are becoming a standard. More and more devices have gyroscopic sensors, and applications and games that make use of them as simply another tool in the kit that gets used in due time and place.

What's a gimmick in the most pejorative sense of the word? Red flame decals on the side of a sports car to make it go faster. Also, that giant Pikachu N64. Yep, that was a gimmick.

But "gimmick" gets thrown around way too often and easily by folks who just don't like something and wish it would go away so they don't have to see it anymore.

Straight from Wikipedia. If you have a better source or a better official defintion, they go ahead:

In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature. It began, however, as a slang term for something that a con artist or magician had his assistant manipulate to make appearances different from reality. Such things as the manipulating of a gaming wheel led to the idea of a "gimmick" being used. Musicians often use gimmicks such as Slash's top hat, Angus Young's schoolboy uniform and Deadmau5's mouse helmet.[1]

In marketing, product gimmicks are sometimes considered mere novelties, and not really that relevant to the product's functioning, sometimes even earning negative connotations. However, some seemingly trivial gimmicks of the past have evolved into useful, permanent features. According to the OED, the word is first attested in 1926, defined in the Wise-Crack Dictionary by Main and Grant as "a device used for making a fair game crooked".

Do you understand it now? You cannot be more wrong by calling the N64 Analog Stick and Motion Controls - both revolutionary input devices - a "gimmick". It cannot be that hard to understand it, can it?

The Wii U Gamepad has far too much functionality (motion sensor, tuoch-screen, wireless lag free technology, camera, speaker, mic, NFC) to call it a gimmick.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

OK, let's use Sony for example since the Wii rivals PS2 in sales.

The PS2 launched at US$299 to PS3's $599. Wii was $250 to $350. Now we know why PS3 had a hard time getting traction, but I'm supposed to believe 80+ million Wii owners out there and the Wii U isn't getting any love because of $100 difference? The Wii U launched with a fitness game and sports games plus you can use Wii games on the Wii U with the same accessories. The transition is effortless! Those millions that thought the Wii was a trendy thing to get left, probably for an iPad.

Sure. It matters.

 

[Infinite]

OK, let's use Sony for example since the Wii rivals PS2 in sales.

The PS2 launched at US$299 to PS3's $599. Wii was $250 to $350. Now we know why PS3 had a hard time getting traction, but I'm supposed to believe 80+ million Wii owners out there and the Wii U isn't getting any love because of $100 difference? The Wii U launched with a fitness game and sports games plus you can use Wii games on the Wii U with the same accessories. The transition is effortless! Those millions that thought the Wii was a trendy thing to get left, probably for an iPad.

The 100 dollar difference matters obviously, as does the lack of a Wiisports or games in general

 

[Kodiak]

Well, recently they have streamlined their flagship product for mass appeal.

Mainline Mario:
From quirky Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy to the very straightforward Super Mario 3D World and 3D Land. They have translated their approach from NSMB to the mainline marios.

NSMB Wii sales: 27 M
Super Mario Galaxy 2 sales: 7 M
Super Mario 3D Land sales: 8.5 M

3D Mario World will probably outsell Galaxy by a huge amount in the long run, and it will probably push mor Wii Us than a SM64-like would have. Despite the hardcore disliking the boring art style and focus on nostalgic elements, it sells really well.

 

[onipex]

Came in here for the dopey elephant gif. GAF has let me down.

OT:
Good OP.

Nintendo pretty much needs to be different. With the N64 they releases a powerful console ,made FPS ,bloody fighters , and breakout 3D games that some still call best of all time. Yet they still lost market share. With the Gamecube they made a powerful console with most of the hit IPs on it, third party deals, and lower price. Lost even more market share.

Sometimes being different pays off and sometimes it bites you in the ass.

 

[Scoops]

Well, recently they have streamlined their products for mass appeal.

Mainline Mario:
From quirky Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy to the very straightforward Super Mario 3D World and 3D Land. They have translated their approach from NSMB to the mainline marios.

3D Mario World will probably outsell Galaxy by a huge amount in the long run.

Ehh but then they have Bayo 2, X and SMT/FE.

I guess appeal to more casuals with their big franchises and pick up exclusive niche games to make up for it to encourage core gamers to still pick up their console, even just as a companion console.

Galaxy sold over 10 million. 3D World will do good but on install base alone Galaxy might do better. Lots of people picked up a Wii for Wii Fit/Sports and then picked up Galaxy because they already had the console. 3D World won't have that advantage.

 

[Basileus777]

But on the flip side, they'd have the creative freedom to explore platforms that allow for experiences they can't currently express being restrained to a small proprietary set of hardware.




They'd also lose the R&D,manufacturing, infrastructure, and support costs associated with those royalty based revenue streams.

And in opening up to third party platforms, they'd have the opportunity to reach consumers in demographics and markets well beyond those they are currently accessing.

The only scenario in which Nintendo goes software only is one in which they've lost a ton of money in the hardware business. It'd mean significant layoffs and a radical change in how their company operates. It wouldn't just be the status quo on different platforms.

 

[Kageshinzo]

In regards to the finances and focus part, I think this is relevant:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/3/f00ac16e-d3e5-11e2-a464-00144feab7de.html#axzz2Wd1yaA1d

(also, it's something that gaming "analysts" failed to catch, this is what pachter should have stated ages ago).

I read somewhere that GungHo's stock plunged drastically not soon after it overtook Nintendo's. If true, then it shows just how volatile the smartphone (casual) gaming market really is, and shouldn't be used as comparison for the dedicated console gaming industry.

 

[aquavelva]

I don't know. Was the PS2 a success? Was the Genesis/Mega Drive a success?

The fact that a company screws up with a console's successor doesn't retroactively make that console a failure.

LMAO I'm just gonna assume MoeB is high/drunk, because his arguments aren't making any god damn sense.

 

[Kodiak]

Ehh but then they have Bayo 2, X and SMT/FE.

I guess appeal to more casuals with their big franchises and pick up exclusive niche games to make up for it to encourage core gamers to still pick up their console, even just as a companion console.

Galaxy sold over 10 million. 3D World will do good but on install base alone Galaxy might do better. Lots of people picked up a Wii for Wii Fit/Sports and then picked up Galaxy because they already had the console. 3D World won't have that advantage.

The combination of Mario Kart 8 and 3D World could be the killer apps the Wii U needs. It worked for 3DS, but that also included a price drop, so it remains to be seen.

 

[SYNTAX182]

Very nice opening. A food for thought.

Is Nintendo really behind when it comes to their consoles power and tech? Or are they at a point where affordability meets the current technology as it pertains to the present state of the economy?

On the contrary, Sony seems to want to push the technology regardless of the price and how much money they lose. It's like they push tech even if the population is not ready for it, like 4k tvs, bluray at the time, etc.

 

[SporeCrawler]

If you want to sell something you gotta have unique selling points. Thats true for any business. Nintendo does this to an extreme end but at the end of the day it is a better strategy for them then beig a 3rd grade playstation with no third party support

You think Nintendo invested in the Balance Board, an $80 peripheral that is hardly used in any other game, hoping for a blind luck? Wii Fit is a calculated success. They do have luck about that, but it's not "blind luck".

People forget that there are over 100 titles that support Balance board

 

[Dacvak]

Phenomenal analysis, OP. I don't have much to add at the moment, but I look forward to the discussion.

 

[ctothej]

Great post OP. I just hope the Wii U holds out long enough so I can pick it up sometime 2015-2016 at a cheaper price with a great backlog of Nintendo games. I think a lot of GAFers are in the same boat.

 

[IrishNinja]

excellent and refreshing OP; after a wave of poor threads around here recently (following that piss-poor bonus round and other "nintendo should go mobile" talk) it's nice to have it all laid out like this.

every short-sighted "why isn't mario in ios", "why isn't iwata gone yet i hate him whyyyy" post should be directed here - there's no mysteries to how they act, they've said these things many times. even without the quotes, i can't imagine a nintendo fighting tooth & nail with sega for so long, then watching their biggest competitor have to bow out after tech-race spending & mistakes caught up to them, only to be replaced by huge corporations willing to hemorrhage billions in the short term for long term gains...how else would a company of their size stay alive? when you look at the long picture, their strategy makes a lot more sense.

Nintendo needs to shift their focus to the handheld market.
That's the only thing they've been successful with in the last decade. I'm talking about successes that weren't rooted in blind luck (see Nintendo Wii, Wii Fit).
/thread

talk about a bad first post; feels like the OP barely got a glance
of course, following that up with debates on what is/isn't a game was also top-notch

 

[aquavelva]

Also, great OP. It was a long ass read but I did it.

On a scale of 1-10, I'm at about a 9 with my happiness with getting a Wii U (I was at about a 7 with the Wii because of motion controls).

The only thing I wish they'd do is focus more on utilizing the game pad. Playing Zombi U is letting me realize how incredible a game designed around the game pad could be. It's only been ~8 months though, so those games will probably start cranking out at the 1-2 year mark.

 

[ikioi]

Nintendo's business model for their home consoles is incredibly simple.

Spend as little as possible on hardware, rehash software and hardware often as we can, and invest as little on developing services and infrustructure as we can get away with.

Opt for low tech, limited capability and features, and low powered hardware were possible. To justify the console however implament some unique hardware capability.

Invest as little as possible into online services, content, and hardware operating systems and services as possible. Nintendo would rather deliver a sub par and poor user experience then spend money.

Rehash the same architectures as many times as possible to avoid the added expenses and challenges of learning new architecture and developing new development tools, engines, and sdks. By sticking with PPC 750 architecture for 15 years and 3 consoles that's a hell of a lot of money saved in upskilling and training staff, and the development of tools, engines, and sdks. The biggest gamble they were willing to take with the Wii U's processor was making it multi core, so now they need to learn how to optimise for multi threaded processing. That's the biggest technical gamble Nintendo will take. But hey, they can still port over any Gamecube/Wii engine in no time.

Ignore western audiences and market completely

Pander to Japanese market and industry

 

[Vermillion]

Two things:

1) It's not just us who feel disappointed when Nintendo doesn't get third-[arty exclusives, and it isn't just us that seems to be surprised and blindsided. It's Nintendo themselves, hence their current Wii U strategy. That wasn't expected and it wasn't on purpose. They aren't getting the big third-party games, and yes, they do want them. They sell.

2) Nintendo constantly moving from one gimmick to the next is damaging. Perhaps they should do research and development for on differentiating thing that actually has legs and move from there, and expand on that. On that note, maybe they should actually start selling Gamepads separately, and allow two controllers. It seems like this idea has gone the way of the Vitality Sensor. What better way to start showing off how the Gamepad is useful than to have games that actually use both in co-op?

 

[dickgumshoe]

Great post OP.

I think it's hilarious how recommendations change over time. Before 3DS started, we got a lot of dedicated handheld business is dead. Now Nintendo should go handheld only.

 

[iamaustrian]

Nintendo needs to shift their focus to the handheld market.
That's the only thing they've been successful with in the last decade. I'm talking about successes that weren't rooted in blind luck (see Nintendo Wii, Wii Fit).
/thread

wow
now I have seen it all.
smh

 

[Freezie KO]

2) Nintendo constantly moving from one gimmick to the next is damaging. Perhaps they should do research and development for on differentiating thing that actually has legs and move from there, and expand on that. On that note, maybe they should actually start selling Gamepads separately, and allow two controllers. It seems like this idea has gone the way of the Vitality Sensor. What better way to start showing off how the Gamepad is useful than to have games that actually use both in co-op?

I don't understand the call for them to support two GamePads. They haven't even figured out a great software title to justify one GamePad. First thing's first.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

The industry hates Nintendo for being Nintendo unless they think they can get free money from them and Nintendo mainly ignores the industry. This is Nintendo's relationship with the industry in a nutshell I think. Most of the industry is used to being courted and wooed by platform holders and Nintendo is used to making games that people want to buy and making money.

Nintendo used to make powerful hardware because it is actually what people want. But in a way Microsoft ruined the market with a very aggressive loss making strategy designed to buy market share. And Nintendo are also now concerned that that the profit is being leached from game software with Apple's very aggressive entertainment software strategy making people think that games are not worth more than a dollar or two.

The big challenge for Nintendo is how to make games or hardware or both seem special again without throwing a lot of money at the wall. Wii U was an effort to try something but the problem is that it's not really seeming all that special.

 

[Fewr]

I read somewhere that GungHo's stock plunged drastically not soon after it overtook Nintendo's. If true, then it shows just how volatile the smartphone (casual) gaming market really is, and shouldn't be used as comparison for the dedicated console gaming industry.

Exactly, that's why the opinion then says nintendo prefers to focus on long term growth, and that 3/5 of their profits are from hardware sales, so it really doesnt make sense for them to get into android/ios and erode the trust their franchises have earned.

 

[Hermii]

1) It's not a game
2) I don't think they had any idea it would be the #1 selling game/sku.

Then I say you have a narrow definition of what a game is.

 

[Shenzakai]

I totally agree with you, OP. Nice post!
That's exactly how it is and I hope some people now will stop with their "What's WRONG with Nintendo" or "FUCK Nintendo" threads...

 

[69wpm]

Nice, OP. You expressed the same things I am thinking since the Wii U launched. One thing you didn't mention: Indies.

Nintendo said in an interview, I think it was Iwata, that they reached out to about 1.000 indie developers. At this point, Nintendo has realised that it is simply not worth it to chase after 3rd parties who refuse to develop for your console. Nintendo will probably never buy exclusive content or bribe them in other ways so they turn to the indies, who in my opinion are far more valuable. Of course, indies will not shift millions of hardware units, but they create beautiful, fresh games that actually make a difference.

 

[Steph_E.]

It's not really needed, but you also don't need to use a stylus. It's exceedingly rare that I pull the thing out, it's really only if I want to draw something on Miiverse. Other than that, most games that use the touchscreen expect you to navigate via thumb taps while still holding the pad with both hands, or interact with large touch-targets with your index finger. A resistive screen certainly doesn't mean that you have to use a stylus, and a multi-touch one is more valuable when you're actually using a free hand, and the GamePad's touchscreen is designed to be used mainly while you're still holding it with both hands..

I find the stylus is better sometimes (eg in the dungeon in Rayman Challenge, Yoshi in Nintendoland), and sometimes a finger or thumb is better (eg Balloon in Nintendoland), but the important point is you have a choice as to what suits you best.

 

[Zajora]

I don't really have much to comment on, but that is a great OP. Reasonable conclusions that are backed up by things they (Nintendo) have actually said.

Nintendo needs to shift their focus to the handheld market.
That's the only thing they've been successful with in the last decade. I'm talking about successes that weren't rooted in blind luck (see Nintendo Wii, Wii Fit).
/thread

That OP is almost 3000 words and you replied in about a minute. You're amazing!

 

[Midnight Moon]

I miss all the quirky Japanese 3rd party games from the Wii. Come on JP 3rd parties, step up. Western 3rd parties only care about power. :s

 

[Sadist]

Great OP, very little to add.

Well, just about the third party thing; in many interviews, Q&A's with investors etc. I do think Nintendo has a one track mind. Especially during the Wii (and now Wii U days) they seem so concentrated on having a large enough installbase, which to them will make all the complaints of third parties go away. I always feel that's pretty shortsighted.

 

[Broken Joystick]

Nintendo needs to shift their focus to the handheld market.
That's the only thing they've been successful with in the last decade. I'm talking about successes that weren't rooted in blind luck (see Nintendo Wii, Wii Fit).
/thread

First post fails so badly.

Nice analysis OP, it's hard to keep your head on what Nintendo is doing, it'll be interesting to see how it all changes when Iwata and Co leave.

 

[RMI]

great post OP. This should be required reading for anyone who feels compelled to post in the "nintendo is doomed" type threads about turning the Wii U around. Especially when it comes to Nintendo's place in the market, which is NOT doing the same thing that their competitors do.

 

[duality1123]

In regards to the finances and focus part, I think this is relevant:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/3/f00ac16e-d3e5-11e2-a464-00144feab7de.html#axzz2Wd1yaA1d

Quote:
June 13, 2013.
Nintendo: not so smartphone
Could Japanese gaming group be a takeover target?
Congratulations to Sony: the only Tokyo large-cap still up 100 per cent year to date and helped this week by buzz surrounding its new games console. Brickbats then to Nintendo, its gaming rival languishing near the other end of the Topix 100 with a mere 3 per cent gain. One of the reasons for Nintendo going nowhere is a fear that Super Mario, Donkey Kong, Princess Zelda and the Pokemon crew are not either as it ignores smartphone gaming. Does that make its stock mispriced or management misguided? Or – deep breath here – is it a takeover target?

Take out Nintendo’s Y900bn ($9bn) net cash pile and you have a gamer with an enterprise value of Y332bn ($3.5bn). Then look at the success of smartphone-focused games makers and wonder what might happen if Nintendo allowed Mario and friends out of its closed system. Take GungHo, whose profits doubled last quarter on the back of in-game purchases from one hit, Puzzle & Dragons. The bull case for Nintendo as is, is that it could yet put some of its games on smartphones. But unfortunately for the bulls, the other side of that argument was laid out this week by Satoru Iwata, Nintendo’s president, who dismissed smartphones as a short-term gaming money-spinner that would destroy long-term value. Nintendo’s sales are split three-fifths hardware, two-fifths software. Understandably it wants its games to push hardware sales. But the smartphone market, and related gaming, is only going to grow.
Nintendo shares are held about one-third in Japan, including a tenth by Hiroshi Yamauchi, its former president, making a bid tough. But a further two-fifths appear to be in the hands of big US investors. Sure, corporate Japan is littered with the corpses of outsiders who have tried to change Japanese companies. But if there were a reasonably-sized company with valuable assets worth a tilt, it would be Nintendo.

(also, it's something that gaming "analysts" failed to catch, this is what pachter should have stated ages ago).

I'm sorry the only problem with this is that although its all well and good to spin something (not at you - at the author) by saying that these guys doubled their profit but it'd be nice to know what they doubled it FROM. I remember reading a few times about how angry birds was being commended for making over 150 million - ignoring that the vast majority of that apparently came from merchandising - it's utterly ridiculous.

Oh and saying that Sony's so much higher this year growth wise than the last, yeh, who here remembers them SELLING THEIR HEADQUARTERS for a quick buck - I'll freely admit I could be wrong but I was under the impression that this was where much of their profits - and thus growth from last year - came from -_-

More Importantly OP can I say congratulations. With all the doom and gloom about how Nintendo's supposedly about to die of sudden heart failure and SEGA comparisons its nice to see that there are people who understand what Nintendo's long term plan is and how they've carved themselves out there own little niche in the console market to go along with their handhelds which will keep them both in business and creative.

Though as a final aside I do believe that they need to begin expanding faster than they have been so they can always make sure that they have the software to roll out. hmmm... Atlus' parent company's under some trouble at the moment - Maybe Nintendo should swoop in grab them =P

edit: ummm... i hate to ask and be a bit of a fool but how do i put a quote inside another quote?

 

[Mitsurux]

Great op, if you really want to see (or read) some of the behind the scenes thought/action that went on last gen at Nintendo (an some of the philosophies they hold), I totally reccomned you read the book:

Nintendo Magic: Winning the Videogame Wars
Osamu Inoue (Author)
Paul Tuttle Starr (Translator)

 

[Jokes and Riddles]

Great post OP.

Most of my thoughts have been pointed out already by others, but I think the big difference is that the other two companies in the industry see Gaming as a means to an end, and I don't mean profits.

Microsoft has seen the console as the Trojan horse to put Windows on your TVs, and Sony has used It as a platform to help launch or bolster formats it has stakes in (CD, DVD and Blu Ray.)

So the conglomerates don't care or worry too much about lost of money in the gaming department as they simply use gaming as a tool for leverage in their other businesses.

Nintendo is also a conglomerate, however, gaming is the heart and soul of the company. So their vision is driven based on games to play, rather than format wars or multifaceted uses of the console.

 

[bomblord]

I agree. However, let's not forget that the lack of compelling software is most likely due to Nintendo's inability to adjust to the larger pipelines that are required for producing HD games. Had they made the jump in the previous generation all of this could have been prevented (for the most part).

Your missing the point of the OP.

Nintendo's philosophy is to stay out of direct competition. Getting into spec wars and adopting industry standard online models is the exact opposite of their philosophy.

 

[exfatal]

Great thread OP, i agree with everything here. Nintendo is focused on making games fun and unique, its a shame that 3rd parties dont want to make the effort to port and support the system. but at the end of the day Nintendo are still going to make great games that sell millions

 

[neto]

Beautiful post OP, I really have nothing to add, as it has been said already, every post that says "what's wrong with Nintendo", should be redirected to this

also this

Great post OP.

Most of my thoughts have been pointed out already by others, but I think the big difference is that the other two companies in the industry see Gaming as a means to an end, and I don't mean profits.

Microsoft has seen the console as the Trojan horse to put Windows on your TVs, and Sony has used It as a platform to help launch or bolster formats it has stakes in (CD, DVD and Blu Ray.)

So the conglomerates don't care or worry too much about lost of money in the gaming department as they simply use gaming as a tool for leverage in their other businesses.

Nintendo is also a conglomerate, however, gaming is the heart and soul of the company. So their vision is driven based on games to play, rather than format wars or multifaceted uses of the console.

I never thought about it but is true, Sony used the PS3 to make the bluray the winning format

 

[RedSwirl]

Great post! I'm curious though: Are there Western developers of any size who you think you would be a good fit for the Nintendo you describe? Why aren't they already working on Nintendo games, and and what could Nintendo do to attract them?

Actually, Lego City Stories and Rayman Legends were probably the best existing examples of western third party games that fit the "Nintendo" mold. Before the delay, Nintendo was actually publishing and localizing the Japanese version of Rayman Legends, which says to me that someone at NCL definitely liked the game. I imagine Nintendo is struggling to find more western games like those two to snap up.

Y'know what? I'm gonna go off on a fucked-up limb here and say that a good western relationship prospect for Nintendo would be Valve.

I've always thought that Nintendo and Valve share similar philosophies when it comes to game design: actual level design, gameplay at the center of everything, tight performance over pretty graphics, etc. It's just that their platforms have never lined up, i.e., Nintendo has never had a platform that can run Valve's games around the time they were released. I even think there was a rumor Iwata badly wanted a Wii version of Portal -- a game I always thought Nintendo would love and am still curious what they think of. Don't know what the prospects are like in the future, since by the time Valve does make another game it'll probably be on a new Source engine that likely won't run so well on the Wii U. I have been wondering how hard it would be to work out DOTA 2 on the GamePad though.

Also, back during the Gamecube days The Sim franchise seemed to get special treatment on Nintendo platforms. Well actually all the way since the SNES version of Sim City really, and Miyamoto has openly praised Will Wright's work more than once. In fact Wright I think is the only western game designer I've ever heard Miyamoto openly praise. I wouldn't be surprised if when EA came back to the Wii U they came back with another Sim game. Seems like a good fit for the GamePad and I could see Nintendo meeting them halfway.

Civilization could be an interesting fit too.