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[Kayo-kun]

That's a really dumb statement.

And this is a really dumb reply that contributes nothing.

It's a statement that is pretty much word to word taken straight out of Erdogan's mouth, it's amazing how tight nit and loyal Turkish nationalism is.

I despise Erdogan and I am far from a nationalist. I don't even live in Turkey.

Except this is the fucking truth. Full stop. Turks need to stop victimizing themselves and making up phantom "genocides'' against them as a pitiful attempt to hide and disguise their ugly history.

Funny how you could replace Turks with Armenians in that sentence and see hell break loose. Calling the massacres of God knows how many Turks/Muslims in the fall of Ottoman Empire as "phantom genocides" and not recognizing them is exactly proving the point that we are trying to get across. This isn't a one way tango. Either you recognize all of the horrific events that happend in that era, or you leave it alone. You guys don't get to nitpick what you want. Think twice before posting and stop seeing everything as black and white.

 

[adamsappel]

This isn't a pride thing for Turks. It's a feeling that the onus is only on them to apologise for past atrocities, but no one is being prodded to apologise for Turkish deaths in the same era.

Turkey can ask for its apologies when they acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. Do you really think that shouldn't come first?

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

I know it's a weird example, but for whatever reason, this reminds of when homophobic people say and/or do something blatantly homophobic, and then throw a temper-tantrum and play the victim when they get called out on their bullshit and are labeled bigots.

The sooner Turkey steps up, and owns up to this atrocity, the sooner it'll be taken seriously as a modern, civilized country. Or I suppose it can spend another 100 years pretending to not understand history.

 

[Mael]

It's not a claim, it happened and it should be remembered.

There was a great thread made about it a while back which can be found here.

Holy crap not even a page on that thread!
OT: this pope is really the best one in a while.

 

[codex119]

How does it even benefit the average Turk to keep denying it? So many other countries can acknowledge the atrocities commuted by their ancestors. Get over yourself, Turkey.

Till today the French government is denying the massacres she committed in Algeria during its century long occupation. Although in this case it happened.

The same with England, spain, Portugal, The US genocide of the natives. And so on and yet this pop has nothing to talk about but the ottoman. Why dosen't he mention the genocides committed by his people not too long ago? He's just fishing.

 

[Kayo-kun]

The sooner Turkey steps up, and owns up to this atrocity, the sooner it'll be taken seriously as a modern, civilized country. Or I suppose it can spend another 100 years pretending to not understand history.

I guess France, England and Japan aren't modern and civilized countries then

 

[AxelFoley]

Amazing that 100 years later Turkey is still denying that it was a genocide.

100 years.

You have people in America who deny the Civil War was fought over slavery, and the Civil War ended 150 years ago.

Plenty of people in many countries stay in denial of atrocities committed by their country.

 

[Mael]

Till today the French government is denying the massacres she committed in Algeria during its century long occupation. Although in this case it happened.

The same with England, spain, Portugal, The US genocide of the natives. And so on and yet this pop has nothing to talk about but the ottoman. Why dosen't he mention the genocides committed by his people not too long ago? He's just fishing.

I can't speak for the other countries but seriously nothing on the scale of what happened in Armenia happened in Algeria.
Atrocities were commited, alledgedly by both sides (this is a hot topic for politicians after all) but outright extermination of a native population?
You'd have a better chance looking at what happened between 1940 and 1945.
Heck with a long history like France have, I'm pretty sure there's more egregious examples lying around.

 

[AxelFoley]

To be fair its not like America talk about the Native American genocide.

And this.

 

[Stereogatari]

Turkey can ask for its apologies when they acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. Do you really think that shouldn't come first?

It's incredibly complicated. Why in the first place are we in a situation where primarily the Armenian Genocide is talked about and the genocide of Balkan and Caucasian Turks is not known at all? Why is Turkey pressured into accepting the genocide, while countries from which Turkish communities perished are not? Why aren't unrelated internet articles about Balkan countries flooded with people asking why those countries don't accept the Turkish genocide? Why are we not living in a World where a Muslim Pope is asking Russia to accept their role in the genocide of Caucasian Muslims?

I sincerely doubt that the genocide of Turks will be on the agenda whenever the Turkish government finally recognsies the atrocities committed against Armenians.

Don't get me wrong though, I just wish the Turkish government would stop this petty nonsense and accept the genocide and get on with the 21st century without this toxic baggage.

Till today the French government is denying the massacres she committed in Algeria during its century long occupation. Although in this case it happened.

The same with England, spain, Portugal, The US genocide of the natives. And so on and yet this pop has nothing to talk about but the ottoman. Why dosen't he mention the genocides committed by his people not too long ago? He's just fishing.

The reason for this is the complexity of geopolitical relations. Western countries are hegemonically on top of the world and were on top of the World back then, so it's easier for them to absolve themselves of their past deeds without being constantly told to recognise the genocide of X, Y, Z. If you're on top who is there to talk down to you?

The Turkish Empire were historically despised by the West for primarily religious reasons, and the downfall of the infidel Turks was welcomed across Christian Europe and America. This is why Armenian, Greek and Assyrian deaths are the only ones that are implanted in the Western conscious, because during that era you can bet that American and European newspapers were filled with stories of what the terrible Turks were doing to Armenians, with nary a mention for Turks receiving the same fate in the Balkans and Caucasus. Adding to this mix is the fact Turkey joined the axis in WW1, so again efforts were made to embellish the barbarity of the Turks and barely if ever mention the same fate befalling Balkan and Caucasian Turks, since they needed to dehumanise the enemy.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

I guess France, England and Japan aren't modern and civilized countries then

Do they all have chapters in their respective histories where they systematically tortured and massacred 1.5 million people in ethnic-cleansing efforts, and now just offensively call it a "war" and act like they broke a few eggs while making an omelet?

Regardless, it's all a moot point. Other crimes don't have weight or baring on this specific case.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

I guess France, England and Japan aren't modern and civilized countries then

You have people in America who deny the Civil War was fought over slavery, and the Civil War ended 150 years ago.

Plenty of people in many countries stay in denial of atrocities committed by their country.

This is like Oscar Pistorius' lawyers pleading, "Hey OJ. Simpson got away with murdering his wife two decades ago, He was a pro Athlete, so is Oscar...Why can't we catch a break?"

Also lotta countries (governments) call a spade a spade, they admit their dark past, they admit to their crimes, take proper action to make things right reform, and carry on with the rest of the world, what is your point?

 

[Trojita]

And this is a really dumb reply that contributes nothing.

That's a cute reply but doesn't refute the fact that what you said was moronic. History, especially only 100 years in the past, definitely affects the present. You can't enter a situation, political or cultural, without knowing the past. While the past should not prevent present day peaceful accords, the past should be acknowledged for what it is and not ignored. Refusing to believe a genocide happened is in direct conflict with the truth and being in denial of this fact will harm any future dialogues between the two cultures. This is the present, and while the past cannot be changed and the genocide prevented, apologizes can still be given and relationships mended. If there were any other atrocities that are proven to have happened, then those should be looked at as well.

 

[6.8]

The salt is strong in this thread. Deflection and changing subject doesn't change the fact that Turkey committed genocide.
Which is what this thread is about.

 

[Stereogatari]

The salt is strong in this thread. Deflection and changing subject doesn't change the fact that Turkey committed genocide.

I haven't denied the genocide in any of my posts.

 

[6.8]

I haven't denied the genocide in any of my posts.

No but you sure are salty!

 

[IdreamofHIME]

pope should shut up when it comes to nazis and the church. They weren't innocent and why we let them pretend they are is beyond me.

Youre only 30 years too early and a different continent. But nice drive by post.

 

[orochi91]

For someone with such an obvious horse in the race, you should know when to step back and say "I have a clear bias". No-one is blaming you for that, it's natural. But you also have to realize that your position is incredibly shaky. If there is a persuasive argument coming out of this, it's not going to be from you.

I agree with what Stereogatari is saying though.

This geopolitical issue is way more nuanced than the Black/White view I had on the matter coming into this thread.

No but you sure are salty!

His "salt" is pretty well reasoned, as opposed to your drive-by snark lol

 

[Stereogatari]

No but you sure are salty!

Damn straight I'm salty. Barely anyone in the West knows what happened to the Balkan Turks and Caucasus Turks, or if they hear about it from people like me on the internet they think I'm lying or exaggerating, when I'm simply frustrated that one side gets their story aired and the other side's story is barely known.

I want this genocide debate to be less Armenian-centered and instead for it to be focused on the multi-ethnic nature of the genocides that occurred in the post-Ottoman lands. Armenian communities were wiped out of Eastern Anatolia. Turkish communities were wiped out of the Caucasus and Balkans. Let Armenian, Turk and everyone else unite and condemn all genocides regardless of ethnicity. That's my position.

You know why else I'm salty? Because Anatolia and Istanbul lost so much when the Greeks and Armenians were ethnically cleansed from Turkey. I would have preferred a multi-ethnic Anatolian Republic to have seceded from the Ottomans, perhaps called the Republic of Anatolia rather than Turkey, which would have had Turk, Greek, Armenian, Jew, Kurd, Assyrian, Bulgarian and the rest, living side by side with a unifying Anatolian identity. Like Britain unifies English, Welsh, Scottish etc. Or how India is such a melting pot of different peoples.

I wish my interactions with Greek and Armenian culture was not left to the internet and books. I look at our cultures and see how ridiculous it is that Greece looks towards the EU, Armenia looks towards Russia and Turkey looks towards the Middle East. It's a fucking joke, because Turks, Greeks and Armenians are more similar to each other than any of the directions they're looking.

Sorry for my tangent but I needed to express how I feel about all this nationalistic baggage that divides us for no good fucking reason.

I agree with what Stereogatari is saying though.

This geopolitical issue is way more nuanced than the Black/White view I had on the matter coming into this thread.

His "salt" is pretty well reasoned, as opposed to your drive-by snark lol

Thanks for acknowledge the content of my arguments rather than the colour of my ethnic affiliation.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

To be fair its not like America talk about the Native American genocide.

Sure, the Armenian Genocide was bad, but did you know that America has done bad things too? Look how intellectually superior I am.

 

[CazTGG]

You have people in America who deny the Civil War was fought over slavery, and the Civil War ended 150 years ago.

Not just America: I had a history teacher in my Canadian university this year who said that The Civil War was only about state rights.

On the subject of this... claim, the denial of the Armenian genocide occurring is like Canada's treatment of its history with slavery: It happened, but the lack of acknowledgement outside of the Underground Railroad (often leaving out how said black people were treated on Canadian soil) shows a lack of respect to the problematic history of the country and its darker times. Denying that it happened isn't going to change the fact that it happened or that the rest of the world knows that it happened, regardless of what atrocities another country may have committed. To call it a "claim" is both disgusting and disrespectful to modern history and all the lives that were lost during this genocide.

 

[WordsintheWater]

Damn straight I'm salty. Barely anyone in the West knows what happened to the Balkan Turks and Caucasus Turks, or if they hear about it from people like me on the internet they think I'm lying or exaggerating, when I'm simply frustrated that one side gets their story aired and the other side's story is barely known.

I want this genocide debate to be less Armenian-centered and instead for it to be focused on the multi-ethnic nature of the genocides that occurred in the post-Ottoman lands. Armenian communities were wiped out of Eastern Anatolia. Turkish communities were wiped out of the Caucasus and Balkans. Let Armenian, Turk and everyone else unite and condemn all genocides regardless of ethnicity. That's my position.

You know why else I'm salty? Because Anatolia and Istanbul lost so much when the Greeks and Armenians were ethnically cleansed from Turkey. I would have preferred a multi-ethnic Anatolian Republic to have seceded from the Ottomans, perhaps called the Republic of Anatolia rather than Turkey, which would have had Turk, Greek, Armenian, Jew, Kurd, Assyrian, Bulgarian and the rest, living side by side with a unifying Anatolian identity. Like Britain unifies English, Welsh, Scottish etc. Or how India is such a melting pot of different peoples.

I wish my interactions with Greek and Armenian culture was not left to the internet and books. I look at our cultures and see how ridiculous it is that Greece looks towards the EU, Armenia looks towards Russia and Turkey looks towards the Middle East. It's a fucking joke, because Turks, Greeks and Armenians are more similar to each other than any of the directions they're looking.

Sorry for my tangent but I needed to express how I feel about all this nationalistic baggage that divides us for no good fucking reason.



Thanks for acknowledge the content of my arguments rather than the colour of my ethnic affiliation.

Maybe Turkey should remove the troops from Cyprus so the baggage get's less heavy between Greece and Turkey.

 

[orochi91]

Maybe Turkey should remove the troops from Cyprus so the baggage get's less heavy between Greece and Turkey.

His post is talking of an Anatolian Republic, of which Cyprus would naturally be a part of.

The division wouldn't exists if they were united under a single geopolitical entity encompassing modern Anatolia.

At least try to read what the guy is writing :/

 

[Stereogatari]

Sure, the Armenian Genocide was bad, but did you know that America has done bad things too? Look how intellectually superior I am.

Sure the Native American Genocide was bad, but did you know that Turkey has done bad things too? Look how intellectually superior I am.

Maybe Turkey should remove the troops from Cyprus so the baggage get's less heavy between Greece and Turkey.

They were going to do that a decade ago. Greek side voted no.

His post is talking of an Anatolian Republic, of which Cyprus would naturally be a part of.

The division wouldn't exists if they were united under a single geopolitical entity encompassing modern Anatolia.

At least try to read what the guy is writing :/

I didn't really consider Cyprus in my idealistic multi-ethnic state, but it sounds like a beautiful idea .

 

[Saintguine]

Not surprised really, first genocided the Armenians and now helping ISIS by killing the Kurds.

 

[Stereogatari]

Not surprised really, first genocided the Armenians and now helping ISIS by killing the Kurds.

You're a moron if you believe the bolded.

 

[6.8]

His post is talking of an Anatolian Republic, of which Cyprus would naturally be a part of.

The division wouldn't exists if they were united under a single geopolitical entity encompassing modern Anatolia.

At least read what the guy is writing lol

I admire his posts, but they are is just as unrealistic as Armenians that think they will get access to the Black Sea and Van with a recognition (which probably contributes against their will to further denial of the genocide).

Neither will happen. They are fantasies. So where do you go from there?

 

[Saintguine]

You're a moron if you believe the latter part of that sentence.

Shhhhhhhhh.

And it's okay, 1.5 million totally didn't die in the non-existent Armenian happy time. Just like how us Australians didn't totally fuck up the Aboriginal population in Australia.

 

[Stereogatari]

Shhhhhhhhh.

And it's okay, 1.5 million totally didn't die in the non-existent Armenian happy time. Just like how us Australians didn't totally fuck up the Aboriginal population in Australia.

Oh ok. So the Republic of Turkey is colluding with ISIS to commit a modern day genocide against the Kurdish Population of Syria. Ok mate thanks for letting me know, I must have missed that one. I've got you, rather than chosing the ice lolly of rationality, I've clearly chosen to be salty.

If you cared to read my previous posts you'd have learned that I don't deny the Armenian genocide.

 

[Armaros]

Oh ok. So the Republic of Turkey is colluding with ISIS to commit a modern day genocide against the Kurdish Population of Syria. Ok mate thanks for letting me know, I must have missed that one. I've got you, rather than chosing the ice lolly of rationality, I've clearly chosen to be salty.

If you cared to read my previous posts you'd have learned that I don't deny the Armenian genocide.

But happy to play 'what aboutism'

 

[Stereogatari]

But happy to play 'what aboutism'

So rather than address the content of my arguments you're resorting to this pseudo-intellectual checkmate nonsense.

On top of that I haven't actually committed this "whataboutism" fallacy. If you're going to use this discussion stifling crap then learn to use it correctly.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

You're a moron if you believe the bolded.

Oh you know... Because after Canadian, Austrian, German and British citizens, sneaking out of their respected countries, flying all the way across the world to join ISIS in Syria... it's HIGHLY UNLIKLEY for Turks (Who not only been persecuting Kurds for decades in their own country, before even ISIS existed... and arguably have a stronger distaste for them than Armenians ) to literally walk across a (more or less) an OPEN border to Syria , join ISIL to fight against Kurds.

That idea just sounds preposterous right? Only a moron would assume a scenario like that?

And here's the kicker, there's documented evidence that most of these Westerns ended in Syria by flying to Turkey first as "Tourist" or whatever then taking a bus to cross the border to Syria and on to ISIS camps. God forbid if there happened to be some Turkish citizens in those buses joining ISIS with them.

 

[Stereogatari]

Oh you know... Because after Canadian, Austrian, German and British citizens, sneaking out of their respected countries, flying all the way across the world to join ISIS in Syria... it's HIGHLY UNLIKLEY for Turks (Who not only been persecuting Kurds for decades in their own country, before even ISIS existed... and arguably have a stronger distaste for them than Armenians ) to literally walk across a (more or less) an OPEN border to Syria , join ISIL to fight against Kurds.

That idea just sounds preposterous right? Only a moron would assume a scenario like that?

And here's the kicker, there's documented evidence that most of these Westerns ended in Syria by flying to Turkey first as "Tourist" or whatever then taking a bus to cross the border to Syria and on to ISIS camps. God forbid if there happened to be some Turkish citizens in those buses joining ISIS with them.

I hear you loud and clear.

ISIS = Muslims

Turks = Muslims.

ISIS + Turks = Muslim Alliance with an M.O to kill the infidel Kurds.

Next time I'm in Turkey and swigging a beer while hanging out with Turkish girls at the beach, I'll be sure to remember to tell them to cover up their shame, marry them and we'll all go to Syria to kill those infidel Kurds.

 

[Tablo]

Stereogatari, the problem here is that you're trying to equalize the significance of two sets of atrocities which are not equal, not in terms of quantity, or damaging effects to the victim nation/peoples.
Turkey is a powerful state as it is, Armenia is a satellite of Russia at this point and has very little if any relative power.
Yes no one, including myself (full disclosure I am an American born Armenian, one who identifies more with the former than the latter, but I'm young so who knows at this point) would deny that Armenians never carried out killings, cleansing, and violence against groups of Turkish peoples or others throughout history. But you have a very weak case claiming they are equal to the methodical and large scale genocide against the Armenians. It's a very different thing to make a global issue of recognizing smaller scale killings motivated by ethnicity than it is genocidal level events, and you must know that.
What I'm saying is, you are downplaying the genocide, and attempting to dilute the significance of it with whatever acts Armenians committed, which in an ideal world would also be recognized don't get me wrong. This isn't black and white, but you cannot and will never be able to fade it all to gray to make yourself feel better as an "Anatolian." I'd try to empathize with your nationalism to better understand your perspective, but I've found myself fairly devoid of any national identity perhaps besides some American ideals, and it helps keep me impartial.

 

[Suikoguy]

Someone please slap the shit out of me If I ever get that way about past mistakes the United States made. It's never wise to attempt to downplay a past atrocity. It's made worse if it's out of some bullshit nationalistic pride.

Choosing not to learn from the past helps us to repeat it.

 

[Stereogatari]

Stereogatari, the problem here is that you're trying to equalize the significance of two sets of atrocities which are not equal, not in terms of quantity, or damaging effects to the victim nation/peoples.
Turkey is a powerful state as it is, Armenia is a satellite of Russia at this point and has very little if any relative power.
Yes no one, including myself (full disclosure I am an American born Armenian, one who identifies more with the former than the latter, but I'm young so who knows at this point) would deny that Armenians never carried out killings, cleansing, and violence against groups of Turkish peoples or others throughout history. But you have a very weak case claiming they are equal to the methodical and large scale genocide against the Armenians. It's a very different thing to make a global issue of recognizing smaller scale killings motivated by ethnicity than it is genocidal level events, and you must know that.
What I'm saying is, you are downplaying the genocide, and attempting to dilute the significance of it with whatever acts Armenians committed, which in an ideal world would also be recognized don't get me wrong. This isn't black and white, but you cannot and will never be able to fade it all to gray to make yourself feel better as an "Anatolian." I'd try to empathize with your nationalism to better understand your perspective, but I've found myself fairly devoid of any national identity perhaps besides some American ideals, and it helps keep me impartial.

Thanks for your reasonable response, the thread needed it.

I actually agree. The ethnic cleansing of Armenians from Eastern Anatolia was far more systematic an annihilation of Armenians from Eastern Anatolia than what the Turks suffered in the Balkans and Caucasus, which was more sporadic and not overseen by the authorities of the respective countries in the same systematic way the Ottomans oversaw the Armenian deportations and massacres.

 

[Gnome Scat]

Never bury history, it should be remembered to help prevent it from reoccurring.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

I hear you loud and clear.

ISIS = Muslims

Turks = Muslims.

ISIS + Turks = Muslim Alliance with an M.O to kill the infidel Kurds.

Next time I'm in Turkey and swigging a beer while hanging out with Turkish girls at the beach, I'll be sure to remember how we're all supposed to be in Syria ready to kill those infidel Kurds.

I love how you bring religion into this to help you dodge your bogus statements... I never once mentioned a religion, so I guess you do not have a counter argument to the fact that many, many Turks, including the Turkish army assist ISIS in fighting Kurds, ok then.

And hmm, how do I put this, but aren't majority of the Kurdish population Musilm? Heck aren't most of the atrocities caused by ISIS are towards the Muslims population of the region? Why are we talking about Muslims again?

Anyway, I don't know how often you visit Turkey, it is a beautiful country from what I hear, one day I'd like to visit myself. I just wish instead of, maybe just drinking beer and hangin out with the ladies, maybe the next time you are there, you instead helped educate the young minds their about their true history and help them to stop feeding on the regurgitated lies their corrupt government has been feeding them through schools and the media for over a century now.

But if you're not up to the task, I understand, just keep swigging that delicious Turkish beer and wave your squeaky clean Turkish flag around and slap the first chick's ass that walks by, it's all good man!

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Sure the Native American Genocide was bad, but did you know that Turkey has done bad things too? Look how intellectually superior I am.

If we were in a thread about the Native American Genocide, I wouldn't bring up the Armenian one. Because they have absolutely fucking nothing to do with each other.

There's literally no reason to be discussing America in this thread, and it's only been brought up because it's an easy way to deflect attention away from the actual subject of the thread. This is how it goes in literally every thread about a non-American country doing something horrible.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

Thanks for your reasonable response, the thread needed it.

I actually agree. The ethnic cleansing of Armenians from Eastern Anatolia was far more systematic an annihilation of Armenians from Eastern Anatolia than what the Turks suffered in the Balkans and Caucasus, which was more sporadic and not overseen by the authorities of the respective countries in the same systematic way the Ottomans oversaw the Armenian deportations and massacres.

This is one of the only few reasonable posts of yours in this thread, and believe you me, you posted by far the most in this thread. It's as if you were doing damage control to an article that may have tarnished your personal family's name.

I highly recommend you and everyone else read this article as well!

Here's a superior read from the Washington Post on the subject.

 

[Yamauchi]

I guess France, England and Japan aren't modern and civilized countries then

Wow, I love these replies filled with laughable whataboutism / tu quoque fallacious arguments. "What about the Native Americans?" "What about France or England or Japan?"

We're not talking about the Native Americans, or France, or the Nazis. The topic of discussion is the genocide of approximately 1.5 million Armenians that occurred in Anatolia in 1915 -- a verifiable historic fact. It was a massive ethnic cleansing campaign carried out by the Young Turk nationalists and part of a much longer trend of ethnic cleansing carried out against religious and ethnic minorities in the late Ottoman Anatolia. Many crimes were committed in this era against ethnic Turks as well. It becomes a recurring point of contention because the government of Turkey threatens other nation states diplomatically for acknowledging this historical fact, as evidenced by the article in the original post.

Your appeal to hypocrisy may ease your own guilt, but it does not settle the matter of the Turkish government's evil diplomatic campaign in regards to the Armenian genocide nor that of its internal propaganda efforts which clearly mislead the Turkish population.

 

[WordsintheWater]

Sure the Native American Genocide was bad, but did you know that Turkey has done bad things too? Look how intellectually superior I am.


They were going to do that a decade ago. Greek side voted no.



I didn't really consider Cyprus in my idealistic multi-ethnic state, but it sounds like a beautiful idea .

I didn't mean to derail the thread and take away from the other issue, but I have to comment on this. It wasn't as simple as unification or not, that stuff came with consequences that in my opinion were too high.

Why shouldn't the people who were kicked out of their homes be able to reclaim their land? People were killed, raped, imprisoned and it really wasn't that long ago. A plan that allowed the people who took the land by force to stay there in other's homes would have never worked. If anything it would have caused even more instability between the two. The plan also placed no blame on Turkey for invading Cyprus and allowed Turkish Cypriots the right to move about the island freely while Greek Cypriots had restrictions. Turkish troops would also stay there, I don't see that as much of a solution, but maybe that's just me. The plan should be looked at again to come to an actual real solution.

 

[Stereogatari]

I love how you bring religion into this to help you dodge your bogus statements... I never once mentioned a religion, so I guess you do not have a counter argument to the fact that many, many Turks, including the Turkish army assist ISIS in fighting Kurds, ok then.

And hmm, how do I put this, but aren't majority of the Kurdish population Musilm? Heck aren't most of the atrocities caused by ISIS are towards the Muslims population of the region? Why are we talking about Muslims again?

Anyway, I don't know how often you visit Turkey, it is a beautiful country from what I hear, one day I'd like to visit myself. I just wish instead of, maybe just drinking beer and hangin out with the ladies, maybe the next time you are there, you instead helped educate the young minds their about their true history and help them to stop feeding on the regurgitated lies their corrupt government has been feeding them through schools and the media for over a century now.

But if you're not up to the task, I understand, just keep swigging that delicious Turkish beer and wave your squeaky clean Turkish flag around and slap the first chick's ass that walks by, it's all good man!

My reply was annoyance. The Kurds in Turkey today as of 2015 have a lot of civil rights, they have a political party that has the 4th most number of seats in parliament, Kurds are part and parcel of Turkish society, every demographic, actors/actresses, singers, everywhere. In other words if a person goes on a day out across Istanbul you'll be seeing and interacting with Kurds, it's unavoidable.

Your previous post makes it look like there is an inherent policy by the government to keep the Kurd down both inside and outside Turkey. There certainly was decades ago, but it's different now. Turkey has good relations with the Northern Iraqi government and favours independence for that region.

Another annoyance was with your idea that the Turkish state and ISIS are BFFs. Highly unlikely that Erdogan's Neo-liberal capitalist Islam that isn't forced upon the non-religious half of Turkey, would jive well with ISIS' caveman Islam that is forced upon everyone they can get their hands on. It just doesn't make sense to me that people with such starkly different ideologies can get along, nevermind the racial, linguistically and cultural differences.

I think a much more reasonable explanation is that ISIS know that it's easy to run around Syria and Iraq, and wouldn't dare challenge Turkey. AKP certainly supported/supports Syrian rebel groups in general, with the aim of getting a Syria ruled by a party with a similar ideology to AKP. Not to mention ISIS talking about conquering Istanbul and kidnapping Turkish diplomats, these words and deeds aren't becoming of an alliance.

You know why Turkey wasn't stopping a lot of people from getting to Syria? Because they weren't privy to intelligence from the Western countries people were coming from and now they're working together and have stopped thousands of people. Not to mention one key thing...those respectable countries you mentioned, why aren't they stopping people at the source when they leave for Turkey?

Last but not least despite bordering Syria, Turkey and the Turkish ethnicity has one of the lowest rates of participation among ISIS. North African countries have a disproportionate representation.

If we were in a thread about the Native American Genocide, I wouldn't bring up the Armenian one. Because they have absolutely fucking nothing to do with each other.

There's literally no reason to be discussing America in this thread, and it's only been brought up because it's an easy way to deflect attention away from the actual subject of the thread. This is how it goes in literally every thread about a non-American country doing something horrible.

My reply there was sardonic. I have previously explained why I think bringing up other countries deeds is justifiable, since there is no equivalent pressure on other countries to recognise their past deeds to the extent that Turkey are made to answer theirs.

This is one of the only few reasonable posts of yours in this thread, and believe you me, you posted by far the most in this thread. It's as if you were doing damage control to an article that may have tarnished your personal family's name.

I highly recommend you and everyone else read this article as well!

Here's a superior read from the Washington Post on the subject.

I certainly need to do more reading on the subject as a whole, that I don't deny.

I'll repeat once again, nowhere in this thread have I played down the Armenian genocide or denied it. I've simply expressed how Turkish deaths in the Balkans and Caucasus are not on the international agenda between Balkan states, Russia, Turkey and Armenia, in the same way the Armenian genocide is.

I'll state it plainly again. Armenians were removed from Eastern Anatolia and Turks were removed from Eastern Europe and Southern Russia. Not many people know about the latter, but for many people the former is one of 4 things they know about Turkey (the other 3 being Kurds, Cyprus and Islamist government). Why do they know the bad things about Turkey but not the bad things about the Balkan states towards Turkey? Why isn't there the same clamouring to get the Balkan states to recognise the ethnic cleansing of Turks?

I didn't mean to derail the thread and take away from the other issue, but I have to comment on this. It wasn't as simple as unification or not, that stuff came with consequences that in my opinion were too high.

Why shouldn't the people who were kicked out of their homes be able to reclaim their land? People were killed, raped, imprisoned and it really wasn't that long ago. A plan that allowed the people who took the land by force to stay there in other's homes would have never worked. If anything it would have caused even more instability between the two. The plan also placed no blame on Turkey for invading Cyprus and allowed Turkish Cypriots the right to move about the island freely while Greek Cypriots had restrictions. Turkish troops would also stay there, I don't see that as much of a solution, but maybe that's just me. The plan should be looked at again to come to an actual real solution.

I knew that, I just wanted to highlight how complicated the whole issue is as you've plainly laid out.

 

[6.8]

If we were in a thread about the Native American Genocide, I wouldn't bring up the Armenian one. Because they have absolutely fucking nothing to do with each other.

There's literally no reason to be discussing America in this thread, and it's only been brought up because it's an easy way to deflect attention away from the actual subject of the thread. This is how it goes in literally every thread about a non-American country doing something horrible.

If this was a thread about the Native American Genocide I wouldn't bring up the Europeans that died as part of the war with the Natives.

 

[goomba]

If we were in a thread about the Native American Genocide, I wouldn't bring up the Armenian one. Because they have absolutely fucking nothing to do with each other.

There's literally no reason to be discussing America in this thread, and it's only been brought up because it's an easy way to deflect attention away from the actual subject of the thread. This is how it goes in literally every thread about a non-American country doing something horrible.

It's probably because Americans love to personify the bullshit ideology of "American exceptionalism" whilst they demonise other countries as evil whilst they act like their own countries shit doesnt stink.

 

[Stereogatari]

It's probably because Americans love to personify the bullshit ideology of "American exceptionalism" whilst they demonise other countries as evil whilst they act like their own countries shit doesnt stink.

This is the point. One of the most spoken languages in the world and on the internet is English, so there is a disproportionate representation for America than other nations, since America is the largest English speaking country.

This leads to a situation where Americans are going online and patronising other countries about their nations pasts and deeds. Perhaps some Americans don't only look outside and criticise their heritage as well, but to Turks, Russians, Japanese and whoever else it certainly comes across as majorly hypocritical.

If we lived in a world where Turkish was a major language worldwide and on the internet, then perhaps we'd live in a reverse situation. We'd be on a primarily Turkish NeoGAF in a thread about the Caliph of Islam's Native American genocide claim. Americans enter the thread to try and explain how it's not black and white as that and that Turks should apologise for their past, and then Turks reply saying "whataboutism" and "you're just bringing up Turkey even though it's un-related."

 

[oti]

I'm just really glad how we here in Germany are dealing with our past. WW1, WW2, Hitler, Holocaust. We talk about everything. These things happened, Germans did this, we were the bad guys.

 

[p3tran]

This guy gets it. I'm all in for recognizing the genocides? massacres? whatever you want to call them, during the beginning of the 1900s. But it's bullshit when you recognize that Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and other Christian groups getting killed, and (1) completely ignore the Caucasians, Turks, and other Muslim groups that were slaughtered during the same time. People don't even bother talking about it, since apparently those groups aren't as important as the previous mentioned ones.

2)Using 100 year old history in politics today is just out of place in my opinion. Let the historians do that part.

1) excuse me, but what are you talking about?
and the other dude that speaks about "turks in balkans getting killed"?
Turkey did SYSTEMATICALLY KILL everything that Turkey deemed "not turkish" in the start of 20th century.
I suggest reading some history, instead of trying to feel better by making it seem "even" to your eyes. mid/long term, your "solution" wont help you.

2) future is the past not learned, a people that dont know/understand their past, they are bound to relive it.

I'm just really glad how we here in Germany are dealing with our past. WW1, WW2, Hitler, Holocaust. We talk about everything. These things happened, Germans did this, we were the bad guys.

Are you very sure about that? I recently read an article where it was stated that around 1 out of every 1000 contemporary Germans had any clue/idea about the atrocities german army did to Greece in ww2. (and this came up because of official press between merkel-tsipras last month, where reparations were officially asked for)
this 1/1000th ratio is hardly like tip of the tops of "being in the know"

 

[CassSept]

You have people in America who deny the Civil War was fought over slavery, and the Civil War ended 150 years ago.

Plenty of people in many countries stay in denial of atrocities committed by their country.

Doesn't even have to be their own country. Quoting Hitler from first page:

/.../Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language/.../

Adolf Hitler - August 22, 1939

There are still people in Poland that deny Hitler wanted to exterminate Poles. Saying he actually respected Poles. Saying his words were taken out of context, twisted, that he didn't mean that. Denial is one hell of a drug.

 

[oti]

Quoting Hitler from first page:

Phrasing. :|