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[ultratruman]

The cordinated effort by the Turkish government, at home and abroad, to have every mention of the Armenian genocide removed, contradicted, explained, countered, justified, mitigated, rationalised, trivialised and relativised is quite extraordinary.

What was most shocking for me is the complicity of the state of Israel in the fabrication, who refuses to make a stance on the issue for fear of antagonising Ankara.

 

[Stereogatari]

1) excuse me, but what are you talking about?
and the other dude that speaks about "turks in balkans getting killed"?
Turkey did SYSTEMATICALLY KILL everything that Turkey deemed "not turkish" in the start of 20th century.
I suggest reading some history, instead of trying to feel better by making it seem "even" to your eyes. mid/long term, your "solution" wont help you.

So you're a Balkan/Caucasus Turkish and Muslim genocide denier?

I repeat again that nowhere have I denied that the Ottoman Government (Turkey declared independence from them) systematically displaced and killed non-Turks. But I want to bring the suffering that happened to Turks by Christians into the debate. Not to deflect, but because the Armenian genocide is such a hot button issue that the only way the ethnic cleansing of Turks from Eastern Europe and Southern Russia will be recognized is by bringing it up whenever the Armenian genocide is talked about. Because the Armenian genocide gets air time and clicks and hits. Stories about the Turks cleansed from the Balkans and Caucasus don't get the same attention. The only way attention can be drawn to the latter is by bringing it up whenever the former makes the news.

 

[nynt9]

The cordinated effort by the Turkish government, at home and abroad, to have every mention of the Armenian genocide removed, contradicted, explained, countered, justified, mitigated, rationalised, trivialised and relativised is quite extraordinary.

What was most shocking for me is the complicity of the state of Israel in the fabrication, who refuses to make a stance on the issue for fear of antagonising Ankara.

Last page I posted that the Turkish Embassy here in DC has flyers for a "peace walk" from the White House to the Embassy on the 100th anniversary of the genocide that says something like "uniting Armenians and Turks" or something like that. There are people, real people who want the government to acknowledge the truth. There are even politicians who want to. The problem is the indoctrination is too deep, and the current regime does not want to acknowledge it. It's weird, because Ataturk had acknowledged and condemned the genocide at the time, and the denial narrative somehow came later. But since people are constantly taught from childhood that it never happened, it's hard to re-educate them as adults. The education system needs to change, and the government needs to acknowledge it - both of these lie at the feet of the government, and as long as Erdogan reigns (which seems like it will go on for as long as he lives) it won't happen. Shame, really.

 

[p3tran]

So you're a Balkan/Caucasus Turkish and Muslim genocide denier?

I am Greek, it looks like a bad joke to me to read what is written here.
can you point me to those references of yours about genocide and mass murder of turks in balkans?
I mean, I've already read it more than once.

and of course, if you do bring something to the table, please let it be at least 1/10th as important as the damage that turks caused during that era.
like, turks killed 1 mill greeks 2 mill armenian and ~1 mill assyrian during that era.
thats 4 mill (you know its more) so please respect yourself and not bring some story about a "genocide" of 15-50-100 people as equivalent.

 

[Stereogatari]

Last page I posted that the Turkish Embassy here in DC has flyers for a "peace walk" from the White House to the Embassy on the 100th anniversary of the genocide that says something like "uniting Armenians and Turks" or something like that. There are people, real people who want the government to acknowledge the truth. There are even politicians who want to. The problem is the indoctrination is too deep, and the current regime does not want to acknowledge it. It's weird, because Ataturk had acknowledged and condemned the genocide at the time, and the denial narrative somehow came later.

Strangely enough Erdogan himself recently acknowledge the massacre, but didn't use the word genocide.

Here's a good question. What came first? Turks denying the genocide, or Turks being prodded to accept the genocide. It might seem like a strange question, but the answer doesn't seem so clear cut when we take Ataturk's words into account.

 

[Stereogatari]

Sorry for the double post, lost track that I'd posted before.

I am Greek, it looks like a bad joke to me to read what is written here.
can you point me to those references of yours about genocide and mass murder of turks in balkans?
I mean, I've already read it more than once.

and of course, if you do bring something to the table, please let it be at least 1/10th as important as the damage that turks caused during that era.
like, turks killed 1 mill greeks 2 mill armenian and ~1 mill assyrian during that era.
thats 4 mill (you know its more) so please respect yourself and not bring some story about a "genocide" of 15-50-100 people as equivalent.

If you're Greek we're going to get nowhere, because we both have a horse in this race. But here's a starting off point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims

Just as one example off the top of my head, Thessaloniki used to have a heavy Turkish presence, now non-existent (the founder of Turkey was from there).

You're a very mean person to reduce the Turkish deaths to 15-50-100 people. Extensive Turkish communities existed across the Balkans, In Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia etc. They were significantly depleted (beyond those clustered near the Turkish border), just like the Greek communities of Western Turkey and North-Eastern Turkey are gone, just like the Armenians of Eastern Turkey are gone.

 

[Kenshin001]

So you're a Balkan/Caucasus Turkish and Muslim genocide denier?

I repeat again that nowhere have I denied that the Ottoman Government (Turkey declared independence from them) systematically displaced and killed non-Turks. But I want to bring the suffering that happened to Turks by Christians into the debate. Not to deflect, but because the Armenian genocide is such a hot button issue that the only way the ethnic cleansing of Turks from Eastern Europe and Southern Russia will be recognized is by bringing it up whenever the Armenian genocide is talked about. Because the Armenian genocide gets air time and clicks and hits. Stories about the Turks cleansed from the Balkans and Caucasus don't get the same attention. The only way attention can be drawn to the latter is by bringing it up whenever the former makes the news.

Because there was no Armenian Empire. The Turks were the invaders and occupiers. The reason no-one brings up the deaths of Turks is for the same reason no-one brings up the deaths and ethnic cleansing of Germans or the deaths of Japanese civilians form WW2. It's weird because you use the same argument as Holocaust deniers and Nazi sympathisers who bring up the persecution of Germans by Russians and east Europeans when the Nazi downfall began.

 

[p3tran]

Sorry for the double post, lost track that I'd posted before.



If you're Greek we're going to get nowhere, because we both have a horse in this race. But here's a starting off point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims

Just as one example off the top of my head, Thessaloniki used to have a heavy Turkish presence, now non-existent (the founder of Turkey was from there).

You're a very mean person to reduce the Turkish deaths to 15-50-100 people. Extensive Turkish communities existed across the Balkans, In Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia etc. They were significantly depleted (beyond those clustered near the Turkish border), just like the Greek communities of Western Turkey and North-Eastern Turkey are gone, just like the Armenians of Eastern Turkey are gone.

errrr lol

I am sorry, but you are referring to what? the Lausanne Treaty of 1923?
hahaha, you may want to read up on that.

The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey (Greek: Ἡ Ἀνταλλαγή, Turkish: Mübâdele) stemmed from the "Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations" signed at Lausanne, Switzerland, on 30 January 1923, by the governments of Greece and Turkey. It involved approximately 2 million people (around 1.3 million Anatolian Greeks and 354,000 Greek Muslims), most of whom were forcibly made refugees and de jure denaturalized from their homelands.

By the end of 1922, the vast majority of native Asia Minor Greeks had fled the recent Greek genocide (1914-1922) and Greece's later defeat in the Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922).[1] According to some calculations, during the autumn of 1922, around 900,000 Greeks had arrived in Greece.[2] The population exchange was envisioned by Turkey as a way to formalize, and make permanent, the exodus of Greeks from Turkey, while initiating a new exodus of a smaller number of Muslims from Greece to supply settlers for occupying the newly depopulated regions of Turkey, while Greece saw it as a way to supply its masses of new propertyless Greek refugees from Turkey with lands to settle from the exchanged Muslims of Greece.[3]

and no, I am not mean, I am just expecting you to either bring proof for what you say, or admit what you (have been told?) is bullshit. there was no such thing as "ETHNIC CLEANSING" of turkish population in balkans. thats pure bullshit.
as i said in my previous post, one might think that "its an eye for an eye deal" would make him feel better about it, but truth is that things dont really work well that way at the end.

 

[Stereogatari]

Because there was no Armenian Empire. The Turks were the invaders and occupiers. The reason no-one brings up the deaths of Turks is for the same reason no-one brings up the deaths and ethnic cleansing of Germans or the deaths of Japanese civilians form WW2. It's weird because you use the same argument as Holocaust deniers and Nazi sympathisers who bring up the persecution of Germans by Russians and east Europeans when the Nazi downfall began.

Your line of argument is way off. Turkish communities in the Balkans and Caucasus had been established for centuries, some had been there since before Turks were in Anatolia. Comparing the uprooting of those communities to the uprooting of Japanese communities and German communities from their 21st century decades old empires is scandalous. Beyond that, I don't think the average Balkan/Caucasus Turk deserved retribution for the actions of the Ottoman Turkish upper class.

I agree with you that the deeds of hegemonic powers gets more scrutiny than the deeds of those who were formerly oppressed.

errrr lol

I am sorry, but you are referring to what? the Lausanne Treaty of 1923?
hahaha, you may want to read up on that.

and no, I am not mean, I am just expecting you to either bring proof for what you say, or admit what you (have been told?) is bullshit. there was no such thing as "ETHNIC CLEANSING" of turkish population in balkans. thats pure bullshit.
as i said in my previous post, one might think that "its an eye for an eye deal" would make him feel better about it, but truth is that things dont really work well that way at the end.

I'm partly referring to that, but also to the heavy depletion of Turkish communities in Romania and Bulgaria. Also Lausanne doesn't account for the already depleting Turkish communities in Greece pre-1923. Ataturk never did get to return to his hometown...

 

[nynt9]

As it is often the case with discussion involving Turkic heritage, I've lost track of who's using "Turk" to refer to "citizens of the republic of Turkey", "Ottoman Empire", "Turkic/Balkan people" or "Ancient Turks".

Would be nice if people would be more specific as collating all of that together just leads to weird arguments.

Stereogatari, dude, I'm Turkish too, but you've gotta cool it down. You're not doing us any favors. "What about other massacres (that may or may not be comparable)" doesn't help in this case. Just let it go. I understand how you feel but you're not getting anywhere with your arguments and you're just spiraling. This is about the Armenian genocide. Not other historical events.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Your line of argument is way off. Turkish communities in the Balkans and Caucasus had been established for centuries, some had been there since before Turks were in Anatolia. Comparing the uprooting of those communities to the uprooting of Japanese communities and German communities from their 21st century decades old empires is scandalous. Beyond that, I don't think the average Balkan/Caucasus Turk deserved retribution for the actions of the Ottoman Turkish upper class.

I agree with you that the deeds of hegemonic powers gets more scrutiny than the deeds of those who were formerly oppressed.



I'm partly referring to that, but also to the heavy depletion of Turkish communities in Romania and Bulgaria. Also Lausanne doesn't account for the already depleting Turkish communities in Greece pre-1923. Ataturk never did get to return to his hometown...

Your argument of an Ottoman Turk genocide in the Balkans holds about as much water as me saying there was a genocide of Brits in Zimbabwe and India.

The turks comitted a genocide of the armenians and that is a fact laid bare before all students of history. Failing to apologise for it is willful ignorance and trying to mitigate it with this balkans/caucuses argument makes you look ridiculous.

It's disingenuous and you're on the wrong side of history.

 

[Stereogatari]

As it is often the case with discussion involving Turkic heritage, I've lost track of who's using "Turk" to refer to "citizens of the republic of Turkey", "Ottoman Empire", "Turkic/Balkan people" or "Ancient Turks".

Would be nice if people would be more specific as collating all of that together just leads to weird arguments.

Stereogatari, dude, I'm Turkish too, but you've gotta cool it down. You're not doing us any favors. "What about other massacres (that may or may not be comparable)" doesn't help in this case. Just let it go. I understand how you feel but you're not getting anywhere with your arguments and you're just spiraling. This is about the Armenian genocide. Not other historical events.

Well it gets even more confusing since there are Turkic communities that overlap with each other, so the distinctions can get lost. The transition from Turks in Eastern Turkey to Azerbaijan is not a clear cut one that's for sure. In Romania there used to be Ottoman Turkish Turks and also Tatars, and these communities probably overlapped with each other. I think Turks tend to encompass all light skinned Ottoman Muslims as Turkish, which confuses the issue even more.

You are right, I just really needed to express myself because this is the only forum I go on and so I had to express myself in this thread. In conclusion I want the Turkish government to acknowledge it and stop making us look evil.

Your argument of an Ottoman Turk genocide in the Balkans holds about as much water as me saying there was a genocide of Brits in Zimbabwe and India.

The turks comitted a genocide of the armenians and that is a fact laid bare before all students of history. Failing to apologise for it is willful ignorance and trying to mitigate it with this balkans/caucuses argument makes you look ridiculous.

It's disingenuous and you're on the wrong side of history.

I didn't fail to apologise for it and many Turks acknowledge massacres occurred, and no it's not comparable because the Brits that lived in India and Zimbabwe were upper class and completely separated from average India, so when the Empire ended they had the means and resources to leave gracefully.

When the Ottomans lost their Balkan territories, the average lower class Turkish peoples living in the newly formed Christian countries were in a spot of bother. Many fled to Turkey (millions of Turks have an ancestor from the Balkans), many didn't make it. A better comparison would be to the massacres that happened when the Indian Partition occurred.

The valid comparison regarding British people would be if lower class Brits established communities in India/Pakistan, didn't have the resources to leave after the Empire ended and ended up on the receiving end of retribution killings by local Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims, that heavily altered the demographics of Indian and Pakistani towns that used to have significant populations of British people.

 

[p3tran]

I'm partly referring to that, but also to the heavy depletion of Turkish communities in Romania and Bulgaria.

well, I guess its clear now that what you are partly referring to is ...wrong, isn't it?





what the bottom line is:

all people who have big power, they are bound to make big mistakes, as the forces that pull them towards those routes (of mistakes) are usually 1000x the forces that verify/control them.
such is life as we became parts of it.

now, most of these bad things that happen, they serve absolutely NO purpose to us, the common people of the world.
they serve other purposes, usually in direct opposition of the people's interests.
and each bad thing that comes to fruition makes the world a worse place for all of us, step by step.

I would dream that in an inter-connected world of common people, we would have a much better understanding, accumulate a much bigger "force" and have a much bigger say and a win in these shitty situations that History is so full of.

unfortunately, I see that the common people kind are ...failing my ...estimations.
I see that people like to group around something and against another group, just like they do in football. especially if they are made to believe that that ..thing is very ..strong. they form a wall around it defending everything about it.
in fact they prefer doing that to doing the other thing, where they get to -you know- fix the world. instead of learning and understanding the truth, and trying to become better by doing it, we get these "my team fuckin beats your stupid team" or even "hey, referee was bought, that didnt happen" scenarios. so I am a little disappointed.
one day though......

 

[Stereogatari]

well, I guess its clear now that what you are partly referring to is ...wrong, isn't it?





what the bottom line is:

all people who have big power, they are bound to make big mistakes, as the forces that pull them towards those routes (of mistakes) are usually 1000x the forces that verify/control them.
such is life as we became parts of it.

now, most of these bad things that happen, they serve absolutely NO purpose to us, the common people of the world.
they serve other purposes, usually in direct opposition of the people's interests.
and each bad thing that comes to fruition makes the world a worse place for all of us, step by step.

I would dream that in an inter-connected world of common people, we would have a much better understanding, accumulate a much bigger "force" and have a much bigger say and a win in these shitty situations that History is so full of.

unfortunately, I see that the common people kind are ...failing my ...estimations.
I see that people like to group around something and against another group, just like they do in football. especially if they are made to believe that that ..thing is very ..strong. they form a wall around it defending everything about it.
in fact they prefer doing that to doing the other thing, where they get to -you know- fix the world. instead of learning and understanding the truth, and trying to become better by doing it, we get these "my team fuckin beats your stupid team" or even "hey, referee was bought, that didnt happen" scenarios. so I am a little disappointed.
one day though......

I couldn't agree more, the comparison with football is very apt, especially when it comes to the way people behave in party politics.

 

[Azih]

Your argument of an Ottoman Turk genocide in the Balkans holds about as much water as me saying there was a genocide of Brits in Zimbabwe and India.

Comparing regular Turkish villager to colonial overlords is poor form.

BUT Stereogatari. It's also poor form to turn a topic about the Armenian genocide to a topic about the cleansing of Turks from Eastern Europe. There is no good reason for Turkey to not acknowledge the first no matter what the general consensus is on the second.

You're more than welcome to start another topic about how Turkish civilian presence in Eastern Europe was eliminated and judging from the discussion here it'll be thread that gets a lot of views and responses.

 

[Stereogatari]

You're more than welcome to start another topic about how Turkish civilian presence in Eastern Europe was eliminated and judging from the discussion here it'll be thread that gets a lot of views and responses.

Perhaps I will in the future. One of my reasons for not doing so is that I automatically assume it wouldn't receive attention, but it's worth a shot one day I suppose.

 

[p3tran]

Comparing regular Turkish villager to colonial overlords is poor form.

BUT Stereogatari. It's also poor form to turn a topic about the Armenian genocide to a topic about the cleansing of Turks from Eastern Europe. There is no good reason for Turkey to not acknowledge the first no matter what the general consensus is on the second.

You're more than welcome to start another topic about how Turkish civilian presence in Eastern Europe was eliminated and judging from the discussion here it'll be thread that gets a lot of views and responses.

but it wasnt eliminated, and if you care to discuss about REALITY and what is happening right now, you know, I'm available.
(like what turkey does in eastern Thraki, or what turkey does every fuckin day with immigrents they sent to greece, or like a handful of other subjects)
I say again, the way Turkish government "handles" the entire situation is laughable, and I find it depressing that there are common people that are defending this kind of politics.

 

[DaMan121]

The Ottoman Empire occupied a heck of a lot of land, with a a lot of diversity for a friggin long time-500 years. Without romanticising too much, it is amazing that a lot of those occupied still have their culture, religion and identity. Having said that, a lot of Balkan countries still drop old Turkish words into their vocabulary. Maybe the British, Spanish and Portugese have better PR teams.

 

[oti]

Turkish, Greek, German, Japanese, American, whatevs, face your past or your future will forever be clouded in doubt.

Spoiler

deep

 

[Kinan]

Honestly, the only country that did (was forced to) a proper analysis of such things is Germany. Vergangenheitsbewältigung is not an easy process, but it made Germany much better and stronger country. Facing the grim reality of your history and surviving it can make you stronger, if you are strong enough, or destroy you, if you are weak. Obviously Turkey is not considering itself strong enough, yet. I hope the time will come.

 

[Ithil]

It's a spade.

 

[Stereogatari]

what turkey does every fuckin day with immigrents they sent to greece

Please don't tell me you believe that Turkey purposefully sends illegal immigrants from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Arabs etc. to Greece. Come on, think about how ridiculous that sounds. Turkey is a transit point for them because Turkey doesn't look after illegal immigrants properly, so they're desperate to get into the EU where they'll get better treatment.

Honestly, the only country that did (was forced to) a proper analysis of such things is Germany. Vergangenheitsbewältigung is not an easy process, but it made Germany much better and stronger country. Facing the grim reality of your history and surviving it can make you stronger, if you are strong enough, or destroy you, if you are weak. Obviously Turkey is not considering itself strong enough, yet. I hope the time will come.

Germans really do have a word for everything.

I say again, the way Turkish government "handles" the entire situation is laughable, and I find it depressing that there are common people that are defending this kind of politics.

Agreed. The quicker the Turkish government evolves beyond this nonsense denial the better.

 

[p3tran]

Please don't tell me you believe that Turkey purposefully sends illegal immigrants from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Arabs etc. to Greece. Come on, think about how ridiculous that sounds. Turkey is a transit point for them because Turkey doesn't look after illegal immigrants properly, so they're desperate to get into the EU where they'll get better treatment.

I am sorry that you find it ridiculous, because its true. I am glad though, because I think that once you understand whats really happening, maybe you react in positive way, not as football club fan.

instead of writing all these facts (which I started to do), I will just point you to a book that you can read.
its not written by Greek, its by Turk. and not just any turk author, but your former prime minister, Tourgout Ozal. book is called in english translation "the strategic depth", and let me just quote two things for you:

- We dont have to go to war with Greeks. We just send them some millions muslims from this side, and we are done with them

this, it was made one of those jpeg images that people used to pass around in emails for years before social net stuff, if you remember. here, for you:

also, this is funny too:

- If the islands of Aegean sea, they are nothing but a natural extension of ...anatolia,
then their inclusion to the Greek territory is nothing but a historical accident that must be fixed
(and guess where they are unloading... right now there is a out-of-order government meeting exactly with focus on addressing the immigration dump on aegean islands)


remember, its your p.m. here, and not addressing some stupid crowd, but is writing his own, serious "book of"

so, what you fail to acknowledge, in reality its the epitomy of turkish policy.



the immigrants (5 mill by 2018 on a ...10 mill county? really?) ,
the >100 violations per day of Greek air and sea space,
what davotoglou (your minister of foreign affairs) did this christmas
what your imam did just last week, the good friday for christians inside agia sofia,
they all reek of exactly the same policy.

learn about it, then do something to fix it.

I can be very specific about many things regarding these things, I think its really not necessary but if you need any help searching, dont hesitate please.

 

[Stereogatari]

I am sorry that you find it ridiculous, because its true. I am glad though, because I think that once you understand whats really happening, maybe you react in positive way, not as football club fan.

instead of writing all these facts (which I started to do), I will just point you to a book that you can read.
its not written by Greek, its by Turk. and not just any turk author, but your former prime minister, Tourgout Ozal. book is called in english translation "the strategic depth", and let me just quote two things for you:

- We dont have to go to war with Greeks. We just send them some millions muslims from this side, and we are done with them

this, it was made one of those jpeg images that people used to pass around in emails for years before social net stuff, if you remember. here, for you:


also, this is funny too:

- If the islands of Aegean sea, they are nothing but a natural extension of ...anatolia,
then their inclusion to the Greek territory is nothing but a historical accident that must be fixed
(and guess where they are unloading... right now there is a out-of-order government meeting exactly with focus on addressing the immigration dump on aegean islands)


remember, its your p.m. here, and not addressing some stupid crowd, but is writing his own, serious "book of"

so, what you fail to acknowledge, in reality its the epitomy of turkish policy.



the immigrants (5 mill by 2018 on a ...10 mill county? really?) ,
the >100 violations per day of Greek air and sea space,
what davotoglou (your minister of foreign affairs) did this christmas
what your imam did just last week, the good friday for christians inside agia sofia,
they all reek of exactly the same policy.

learn about it, then do something to fix it.

I can be very specific about many things regarding these things, I think its really not necessary but if you need any help searching, dont hesitate please.

Link me to the book please. It sounds interesting and I couldn't find anything on google.

 

[Jasper]

You know what makes it even more DESPICABLE is that the Armenians were a very prosperous minority (intellectuals, business owners, jewellers, etc) .

Even when believing the Turkish propaganda bullshit and calling it a "deportation" (just to appease the Turks), the Turkish government still without question HUGELY profited monetarily from the slaughter of the Armenians....

"Apart from the one to one and a half million deaths, Armenians lost all their wealth and property and received neither compensation nor reparations. Businesses and farms were lost, and all schools, churches, hospitals, orphanages, monasteries, and graveyards became Turkish state property.

In January 1916, the Ottoman Minister of Commerce and Agriculture issued a decree ordering all financial institutions operating within the empire's borders to turn over Armenian assets to the government. It is recorded that as much as 6 million Turkish gold pounds were seized along with real property, cash, bank deposits, and jewelry".

Turkey was founded and funded on the hard-earned money of dead Armenians, and until now the Turkish govenrment has not paid a SINGLE PENNY back to those who survived the genocide or the ancestors of those who died at the hands of the Turks.

ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING!

Actually...they did at least provide a small piece of bread to the starving Armenian children during the genocide (oh wait no, the Turk was simply taunting & teasing the Armenian children....silly me).

 

[jelly]

How shameful. Didn't know about this, horrific crimes. Thanks for posting about the history, interesting read.

 

[p3tran]

zip

for a country to decide and sentence another country to death by starvation, thats probably as inhuman as you can go, before taking out the toolkit for the mentally unstable tyrants, going to physical torture.

I have had the opportunity in the past and visit -not anything extravagant, just- the small village in north Greece where my father's part of the family is from.
I mean, there I was, talking to a relative of mine that was like 10-15 years old during the german occupation, and I will never in my life forget her expression when she was telling me that with my father (who was much younger at the time) and two more kids, they would scout everyday every little place they could think of for food, and IF they found some gift from god like ...a walnut that fell somewhere, they would split it four ways and be extremely happy for the rest of the day.......

GUYS, LEARN YOUR HISTORY.
THOSE WHO FAIL TO LEARN, THEY ARE BOUND TO RELIVE IT.

 

[Kayo-kun]

I am sorry that you find it ridiculous, because its true. I am glad though, because I think that once you understand whats really happening, maybe you react in positive way, not as football club fan.

instead of writing all these facts (which I started to do), I will just point you to a book that you can read.
its not written by Greek, its by Turk. and not just any turk author, but your former prime minister, Tourgout Ozal. book is called in english translation "the strategic depth", and let me just quote two things for you:

- We dont have to go to war with Greeks. We just send them some millions muslims from this side, and we are done with them

this, it was made one of those jpeg images that people used to pass around in emails for years before social net stuff, if you remember. here, for you:


also, this is funny too:

- If the islands of Aegean sea, they are nothing but a natural extension of ...anatolia,
then their inclusion to the Greek territory is nothing but a historical accident that must be fixed
(and guess where they are unloading... right now there is a out-of-order government meeting exactly with focus on addressing the immigration dump on aegean islands)


remember, its your p.m. here, and not addressing some stupid crowd, but is writing his own, serious "book of"

so, what you fail to acknowledge, in reality its the epitomy of turkish policy.



the immigrants (5 mill by 2018 on a ...10 mill county? really?) ,
the >100 violations per day of Greek air and sea space,
what davotoglou (your minister of foreign affairs) did this christmas
what your imam did just last week, the good friday for christians inside agia sofia,
they all reek of exactly the same policy.

learn about it, then do something to fix it.

I can be very specific about many things regarding these things, I think its really not necessary but if you need any help searching, dont hesitate please.

Wow, I think we found Hitler's long lost son. Some of these comments...

Funny how the the nationalists, some boderline racists, and other uninformed people in this thread, are the ones denying massacres of civillians and demand Turkey to recognize the Armenian genocide. The irony in this thread is ridiculious.

 

[p3tran]

Wow, I think we found Hitler's long lost son. Some of these comments...

Funny how the the nationalists, some boderline racists, and other uninformed people in this thread, are the ones denying massacres of civillians and demand Turkey to recognize the Armenian genocide. The irony in this thread is ridiculious.

so let me get this straight:

in a thread about armenian genocide, you are the guy denying, claiming this:

Using 100 year old history in politics today is just out of place in my opinion.

and, at the same time, I am hitler's son, a nationalist, borderline racist and uninformed.

ok, gotcha

 

[Kayo-kun]

so let me get this straight:

in a thread about armenian genocide, you are the guy denying, claiming this:



and, at the same time, I am hitler's son, a nationalist, borderline racist and uninformed.

ok, gotcha

Who said I am denying the Armenian genocide?

Are you even reading this thread or are you just posting Greek Stormfront theories about "immigrantion dumps" happening in your country?

I stand by my point, a 100 year old history shouldn't be used in modern politics today. If you are going to bring up history and recognize the horrific events, then you might aswell recognize them all.

 

[Jasper]

Funny how the the nationalists, some boderline racists, and other uninformed people in this thread, are the ones denying massacres of civillians and demand Turkey to recognize the Armenian genocide. The irony in this thread is ridiculious.

Bro, don't crucify me, i'm just speaking the truth of the atrocities that occurred during the Armenian Genocide.

No seriously...please don't crucify me...

"“Crucified Armenian women in the region of the Der-es-Zor - picture taken by Arab Bedouins who took them back down from the cross”

 

[Stereogatari]

Jasper you are insane. Throughout the whole thread every Turk has acknowledged the ethnic cleansing of Armenians from Eastern Anatolia, yet you all of a sudden explode here as if we were all denying it.

Are you even reading this thread or are you just posting Greek Stormfront theories about "immigrantion dumps" happening in your country?
.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt as it sounds like it would be an effective tool to use brown immigrants to keep the Hellenes down. Still waiting for a link to the book though.

 

[Kayo-kun]

Bro, don't crucify me, i'm just speaking the truth of the atrocities that occurred during the Armenian Genocide.

No seriously...please don't crucify me...

What are you even talking about?

Trying to make a joke out o the woman who got crucified or what?

Seems like you won't last long with that attitude junior. Bad taste.

 

[nynt9]

You know what makes it even more DESPICABLE is that the Armenians were a very prosperous minority (intellectuals, business owners, jewellers, etc) .

Even when believing the Turkish propaganda bullshit and calling it a "deportation" (just to appease the Turks), the Turkish government still without question HUGELY profited monetarily from the slaughter of the Armenians....



Turkey was founded and funded on the hard-earned money of dead Armenians, and until now the Turkish govenrment has not paid a SINGLE PENNY back to those who survived the genocide or the ancestors of those who died at the hands of the Turks.

ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING!

Actually...they did at least provide a small piece of bread to the starving Armenian children during the genocide (oh wait no, the Turk was simply taunting & teasing the Armenian children....silly me).

Actually that image was proven to be fake. Oxford University Press retracted that photo:

http://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/24uffg/turkish_official_teasing_starved_armenian/

It would be nice if you stopped spreading propaganda.

 

[p3tran]

Jasper you are insane. Throughout the whole thread every Turk has acknowledged the ethnic cleansing of Armenians from Eastern Anatolia, yet you all of a sudden explode here as if we were all denying it.


I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt as it sounds like it would be an effective tool to use brown immigrants to keep the Hellenes down. Still waiting for a link to the book though.

I never said I have a link so you can read it online, did I?
the information I have to give you I already did, book is written by tourgout ozal, and it is called (in translation) "the strategic depth".
I guess its much easier to find it in a bookstore in Constantinopole, than anywhere else.


for me, the critical point is when you realize. what happens then.
you can have a million doubts until that point, it is only expected.

 

[Stereogatari]

I never said I have a link so you can read it online, did I?
the information I have to give you I already did, book is written by tourgout ozal, and it is called (in translation) "the strategic depth".
I guess its much easier to find it in a bookstore in Constantinopole, than anywhere else.

Can you get me the ISBN? I can't find a book by Turgut Ozal called "the strategic depth" on Google. The ISBN would be more precise.

 

[nynt9]

I never said I have a link so you can read it online, did I?
the information I have to give you I already did, book is written by tourgout ozal, and it is called (in translation) "the strategic depth".
I guess its much easier to find it in a bookstore in Constantinopole, than anywhere else.


for me, the critical point is when you realize. what happens then.
you can have a million doubts until that point, it is only expected.

Turgut Ozal has never written a book. There is only one book he has "written" but it was written by another author and attributed to him, and that book was on Turkish culture and history. I can not find a reference to the book you mention. Here's an article (in Turkish) backing up what I've said. http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/yazarlar/15216691.asp

 

[p3tran]

I made a couple of calls for you guys, here is info for you to search:

"strategic depth" by ozal, its a doctrine on foreign policy.
ozal had this dream about "central Asian initiative", and he was pretty active about it in the start of the 90s',
and in his doctrines about how turkey is by geopolitical fact destined to rule the entire area,
he purposed this "solution" for us, greeks. (my first quote, the one in jpeg form)


just like turkish current pm has the same dream, fully embodied in the book called "the strategic depth", written by davutoglu (I dont have a code for this either), your current foreign affairs minister.
in fact, the second part I have bolded (let me copy/paste for convenience)

- If the islands of Aegean sea, they are nothing but a natural extension of ...anatolia,
then their inclusion to the Greek territory is nothing but a historical accident that must be fixed

well, thats not a dead politicians rhetoric, but your current minister of foreign affairs proud work, mr davutoglu
(which makes it ..worse I believe?)

* also, in relation to this particular topic and ozal, its worth saying that ozal was very much in favor of solving the armenian genocide, because he had to face the issue many times during his stay in united states, and was smart to see forward that this issue would cost more as time passed, let alone it being an obstacle in his grandiose plans for wider area leadership. I was told that even before he came officially in power, he had multiple times tried to setup committees to calculate the costs and find solutions for addressing this problem. And, another thing I was told, is that he kept pursuing this plan of his, against the will of other strong leaders in turkey (mainly army generals at the time+of course vested interests) , and there is an entire chapter about how he died that really is more or less censored for the time being. supposedly he was pushing for a plan to give some land back to armenians when he got ill and died. he also had another beef with the generals, he thought that turkey should "put one piece in, and get three pieces out, as the cake is on the table for sharing" when referring to the neighbor country Iraq and what was going to go down soon. of course bottom line the generals were more tied to reality and nato than to ancient turkish empire aspirations. so I think these two things added up in a bad way. where it one beef instead of two together, maybe today things would be a bit different.

 

[Azih]

Um p3tran. You just reposted what you said before with no more solid citation.

You do see that your sources seem incredibly weak right?

 

[Stereogatari]

I found this "The blueprint for this policy was outlined in the Stratejik. Derinlik (Strategic Depth) doctrine propounded by Turkish Foreign. Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu." Sounds interesting to me, I'd love to read up on it.

FWIW I'm no AKP supporter.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

Actually that image was proven to be fake. Oxford University Press retracted that photo:

http://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/24uffg/turkish_official_teasing_starved_armenian/

It would be nice if you stopped spreading propaganda.

That's crazy how fake that photo is, but there are mind you many photographs of Armenian genocide victims of women and children of the time. It's too bad someone decided to "enforce" "stress" the point by tampering the shit out of that photograph, I'd imagine these starving, dying children are indeed victims of the genocide, but I wonder what was the actual/ original context of that photo.

 

[p3tran]

Um p3tran. You just reposted what you said before with no more solid attribution.

You do see that your sources seem incredibly weak right?

it depends what you want to push as a conclusion I guess?

if you want to draw a conclusion because I cannot give you a book code so you can automatically retrieve online a foreign policy doctrine, be my guest.
I am not the one missing the forest in this case.

in fact -as you may know if you live in a neighbor country- its late night here and I called some people just to make sure about what info I write to you guys to search upon.
but according to you, I am "weak-source". so thanks I guess.

but anyways, I found something that may work for you.
its a paper from an anti-hellenic "non profit" "institution" (yet we pay these bitches), and basically is a working paper based on ....the book that you imply that my sources are weak/imaginery for. oh yes, "the strategic depth" by davutoglu.
you can clearly see at page 2 and page 3 of the preface of this paper , that book indeed exists, and is the basis of this paper.
here
http://www.eliamep.gr/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ΚΕΙΜΕΝΟ-ΕΡΓΑΣΙΑΣ-8_2010_IoGrigoriadis1.pdf

now, I guess that if this really interests you, and what your leaders plan for foreign policy, you have more than enough clues to search.
if on the other hand you just care to ..deny, i think your goal has already been accomplished, so no need to go at it again.

 

[Stereogatari]

That's crazy how fake that photo is, but there are mind you many photographs of Armenian genocide victims of women and children of the time. It's too bad someone decided to "enforce" "stress" the point by tampering the shit out of that photograph, I'd imagine these starving, dying children are indeed victims of the genocide, but I wonder what was the actual/ original context of that photo.

Makes you wonder how many other lies there are among the legitimate evidence for the genocide. People that spread such lies are as bad as the deniers.

 

[Valhelm]

Because there was no Armenian Empire. The Turks were the invaders and occupiers. The reason no-one brings up the deaths of Turks is for the same reason no-one brings up the deaths and ethnic cleansing of Germans or the deaths of Japanese civilians form WW2. It's weird because you use the same argument as Holocaust deniers and Nazi sympathisers who bring up the persecution of Germans by Russians and east Europeans when the Nazi downfall began.

But they absolutely should. The denial of the oppression of ethnic Germans after WW2 is a travesty, considering how horribly the Soviets fucked things up. Compare a linguistic map of Europe in 1914 to a linguistic map a century later:

While the Soviet removal and genocide of ethnic Germans (many of whom identified as Polish and didn't even speak German as a first language) doesn't compare to the Holocaust, it's equivalent to Andrew Jackson's removals of Native Americans, an act of violence which thankfully does now get academic attention. Other Germans enacted the most deliberate and systematic genocide yet committed, but the Germans in Eastern Europe absolutely did not deserve to be killed or displaced due to their ethnicity alone.

Being an accomplice to genocide does not justify a group's oppression. This same sort of logic is what led to the Crusades, a conflict viewed by its instigators as defensive. And most Anti-Semitic violence in the Middle Ages was seen as "payback" for Jesus' crucifixion.

The oppression and removal of European Muslims is a tragedy. Sure, the Muslim presence was established by conquest, but the same could be said of the English presence in England, or the Nordic presence in upper Fennoscandia. Huge amounts of Muslims in the Balkans were murdered or displaced for reasons beyond their control. While fewer people were affected than by the Armenian Genocide, hundreds of thousands of Muslims were forced to leave their homes and flee to a country they had no experience in.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

Makes you wonder how many other lies there are among the legitimate evidence for the genocide. People that spread such lies are as bad as the deniers.

I see those "lies" as desperate attempts and a cry for help from a dying race to get the world's attention from the atrocities they are going and went through.

The legitimate documented and photographic evidence far, I mean really far outweighs any of these tampered photos and a few post WW1 publications of books who I assume were only written in an exaggerated and dramatic fashion to keep this issue alive and in the public's mind.

It is in fact unfortunate for both side of the arguments to exaggerate and tamper with some of the events that happened in Western Armenia/ Eastern Turkey during the fall of the Ottoman empire.

But again, there are so many legitimate, correctly sourced and documented photos and documents about death marches of hundreds and thousands of women, children, men and systematic killings of Armenian officials in Turkey, that it is in fact silly to point out and say... "That photo is fake, That list made by Talat to kill every Armenian under the age of 50 is also fake so the Armenian genocide is a lie!"

The half of the population of civilians of an ethnic minority group doesn't just die off and vanish within a few months because of "war" . clearly there was a system put in place to get rid of Armenian Christians in the region at the time, and get rid of them in any way possible and as quickly as possible, that just cannot be denied.

 

[p3tran]

Huge amounts of Muslims in the Balkans were murdered or displaced for reasons beyond their control. While fewer people were affected than by the Armenian Genocide, hundreds of thousands of Muslims were forced to leave their homes and flee to a country they had no experience in.

I am sorry but you are very wrong on this. I already mentioned about the Losanne treaty.
it was made AFTER the war, the war that greeks lost to turks, and basically as you know in treaties after the war, its not the looser that sets the terms.
Turkish government had a very clear and set idea on where and why it wanted those muslims. And they also had an ever bigger goal, to force the rest of the greeks that remained in their soil, having withstanded/evaded the ethnic cleansing, to leave for good,
leaving the soil 100% free of anything that was not under complete control of turkey. (and since they did the same thing not only to greeks but to other nations too, I dont think its really up for debate)

now, to bring this treaty up, as a proof that ...turks were ethnically cleansed from greece... well, thats on another level, far beyond my ability to follow.
by the way, and you seem to miss this point, while around 300.000 turks were ordered to leave greece, more than a whooping 1.2 million (4 times as much) Greeks where forced to leave mikra asia. and you know, they prospered there.
an this >million Greeks, on top of the million slaughtered on the same soil. correct?

how come you missed this tiny detail?

 

[Valhelm]

I am sorry but you are very wrong on this. I already mentioned about the Losanne treaty.
it was made AFTER the war, the war that greeks lost to turks, and basically as you know in treaties after the war, its not the looser that sets the terms.
Turkish government had a very clear and set idea on where and why it wanted those muslims. And they also had an ever bigger goal, to force the rest of the greeks that remained in their soil, having withstanded/evaded the ethnic cleansing, to leave for good,
leaving the soil 100% free of anything that was not under complete control of turkey.

now, to bring this treaty up, as a proof that ...turks were ethnically cleansed from greece... well, thats on another level, far beyond my ability to follow.
by the way, and you seem to miss this point, while around 300.000 turks were ordered to leave greece, more than a whooping 1.2 million (4 times as much) Greeks where forced to leave mikra asia.
an this >million Greeks, on top of the million slaughtered on the same soil. correct?

how come you missed this tiny detail?

Haha, nice job ignoring my post. What I'm saying is that violence and displacement are fucking horrible, and it's disgusting to disagree just because the violence was committed in reaction to another genocide.

 

[p3tran]

Haha, nice job ignoring my post. What I'm saying is that violence and displacement are fucking horrible, and it's disgusting to disagree just because the violence was committed in reaction to another genocide.

no I did not ignore your post. I read it. and the example you used is very wrong.
you can blame this (horrible-disgusting thing you say) on turkish government of that time, too. just like the three-pit of genocides. they ordered for this. not ..balkan countries. I think its pretty clear. is it not?

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I'm wondering when the genocides commited against Turks and other Muslim peoples in the Balkans and Caucasus will be recognised?

Never.

It's not in the Wests interests at all to ever present themselves as anything other completely benevolent.

Turkey has no responsibility to admit to anything as most other considerably "Westernized" governments tend to not have to deal with it. Germany does, but only because they lost and only because of how bureaucratic and mechanized it was and its overall scope.

 

[Valhelm]

no I did not ignore your post. I read it. and the example you used is very wrong.
you can blame this (horrible-disgusting thing you say) on turkish government of that time, too. just like the three-pit of genocides. they ordered for this. not ..balkan countries. I think its pretty clear. is it not?

I'm not blaming Greeks, though. What I'm saying is that this displacement was tragic.